"Trees: Scale, Density, Bulk Buying" Topic

I'm working on a project involving wilderness skirmish in North America, specifically the Eastern Woodlands, so I think I need a lot of trees, in a mix of broadleaf and conifer. I have a couple questions about scale and cost.

This project is 28mm (FIW). I'm planning on using trees in the 3" to 5" range, because: 1) tall trees are expensive, 2) tall trees may be truer to scale but they limit access to figures for gameplay, and 3) 3" to 5" trees come in bulk bags somewhere in my budget.

Does this height seems too short? How many tree would I need to convincingly replicate a "forest" on a 3' X 3' table in 28mm? 25 trees? 100 trees? How important is the mixture of broadleaf/conifer or color of the seasonal foliage as compared to cost? Is a source like hobbylinc a good place to buy bulk trees? Can you recommend certain manufacturers of ready-made trees? Based trees? DIY trees?

I know I need a lot of trees, and I know I have to be able to fit my hand (and figures) between them. I know that rules like FoF give general guidelines for cover, dense woods, etc. I'm just not sure what size to buy and how many I really need.

A bag of mixed 3" to 5" trees for 28mm FIW on a card table?

Sufficient?

Does this height seems too short?

Technically, it is too short, but most wargamers use short trees without any visual difficulty. If the trees were to scale with the figures they would really get in the way! Besides trees are a bit like buildings. We often use "one size down" for buildings and the same logic sort of applies to trees (at least in so far as height).

How many tree would I need to convincingly replicate a "forest" on a 3' X 3' table in 28mm? 25 trees? 100 trees?

I reckon to completely cover a 3 x 3 area you'd need about 150 trees. However, that weould be boring, so include few tracks and clearings and then you'll probably need about 100.

How important is the mixture of broadleaf/conifer or color of the seasonal foliage as compared to cost?

Depends how fussy you are. I have a mix of conifers and deciduous and I just use what takes my fancy.

I really like the woodland scenics trees. I have them in the size you are talking about and they come in bulk. What I like about them is that they do not have wide branches so the are easy to get hands and figures in and around them.

They are the pine tree type. I think conifer, but I don't really know my tree species. Their web site shows them.

Matthew

You can also find trees at the Dollar Tree stores a little closer to Christmas that will work. That's where I've bought a bunch of mine.

Jim

P.S. An e-mail to jmcp1650 at comcast dot net will get to me ref the figures.

You can buy bulk trees on ebay very cheap. Just search for model railroad trees.

You can buy bakery trees by the gross very very cheap but they are not quite tall enough for you and shiny. But very very cheap.

You'll want a lot of deciduous as well as pines. Get a mix of colors. If the entire table is forest except the clearings/fields just add as many trees as you like and move the ones that are in the way.

Otherwise, mark the forest areas with an edge of flock or foliage and fill in with trees. Again, move the trees when needed for game play.

For cheap conifers the bottle brush style are common at Christmas time. Wait for the clearance after the holiday.
The white snow effect can be rinsed and brushed off with warm water.

The company the sells such trees (Lemax) lemaxcollection.com
Also sell other lines for other holidays and often these too are on clearance, but you may have to hunt for craft of specialty holiday shops to find them.

That being said; I would suggest and entirely different approach: Model just the trucks and the brush on the ground. Leave the foliage of the canopy as separate parts in say 6"x6" clumps. You can model the foliage as high as you want for reasons of visual effect.

My thinking is: full model trees will be in the way of the gaming. Also, the canopy foliage plays almost no part in a FIW skirmish. So, leave it out except for looks (or all together). The play will be affected by the trees' trunks and the ground brush, not the canopy. Model all the trunks to some convenient height, like 3". Then your models can run among the trucks with out always pulling up whole trees and changing the lay of the land during the game. You can lay "tiles" of canopy foliage on top of the array of trunks in the areas in which none of the movement is happening. This may add to the visual interest. As the action moves across the table remove "tiles" of canopy to reveal the land beneath it.

I would suggest and entirely different approach:

I like these ideas a lot.

That could also add an element of fog of war to the game, as you won't see the real lay of the land until figures actually enter it.

Check out the numerous Chinese tree making sellers on Ebay. Most of them offer free shipping and you can't really beat the price. Go to the model railroad section and hit the "HO" and "O" guages. Then chooses the trees or miodel tree options at the top. You'll find what you need.

And hopefully they have a non-toxic variety.

A couple of things…

First big question is if you are up for scratch-building some or all of your trees. It's relatively simple to scratch-build pretty nice looking conifers which will end up costing far less than commercial trees and looking as good or better than the average lower end commercial tree. It takes time, preparation, some tools and some materials, like bamboo skewers or narrow dowels, furnace filter material or wire or twine (furnace filter sheets are the fastest and easiest and still turn out looking very good IMHO).

Of course this doesn't cover deciduous trees, which in my experience are more difficult to scratch-build to a high quality level, and therefore you may be better off buying commercial trees in bulk. But FIW terrain would have a lot of pine trees, so the homemade approach could certainly cover a lot of what you may need.

Second issue is your note about having to maintain room on the table-top for your hands to slip between the trees in order to reach your figure. There is some truth to this… but it depends on how you base your trees and whether or not you use some sort of "forest floor" piece to indicate a general area of ground covered by trees, or if your game will use single trees one by one. Even one-to-one level skirmish games can use the forest-floor approach which allows you to shift individual trees around when necessary during game play. Another way to approach it is by making self-contained woods which have an outer tree-line at the edge but the interior of the area is made up only of the foiliage at the top of the woods, which is held up a lower lip on the inner edge of the trees that line the area, so you are able to move troops around at will inside the wooded area.

Back on the scratch-building front, if you have any interest in doing that kind of thing, a long weekend with a few bags of bamboo skewers, a file or rasp, some wood-stain, a $10 USD replacement furnace-filter from Walmart (for the foliage), and some glue, and you should be able to make close to 100 nice looking pine trees for well under $20. USD

"And hopefully they have a non-toxic variety"

??

Dear Grommet 37

Might I suggest you think in a completely different way which will save you time and trouble.

What I use in my set up Is hexagons which are 14" point to point and 12" between parallel sides made of Luan plywood 1/4" thick. Onto these hexagons I have built small hexagonal "boxes" by cutting SBS or cardboard walls about four inches high. These are glued on the hexagonal plate leaving about an inch along the outer edge as a flange. Onto this flange I use a littpel putty, a little paper mache to anchor small twigs representing the trunks of trees, standing up which hold up an upper flange around the top of the box, but leaving access to the hex box open. The flange is held up by these twigs cut to look like the trunks of trees (you can get all you want from last years Christmas trees if you get a real one or a pleasant walk in any forest. The putty on the base also is used for small twigs to epresent deadfalls, bracken, push a few pieces of gravel into as rocks etc. The wall of the box above this I paint with a green mottled color or decopage photographs of real forest interiors onto it like wallpaper and feather the edges with paint etc. On top of this I make a conica; "hat" from carboard. I also make odd shaped and special scenic hats of various types, all to look like rought terrain, and the general shape of the forest tree tops. Onto this I glue NOT lichen, which gets expensive, bu the expanded foam core from common packing material (this is the stuff that comes in bags which is thrown into packing crates to secure objects inside the crates. You can get this stuff anywhere.

This stuff you get by simply tearing the bag open and tearing the foam into small bits with your fingers. Then take these and soak them in simple latex paint from any store, and then squish it out after the paint has permeated the core and let it dry (I know, messy, use rubber gloves). Once dry you simply stick this to the top of the conical or free-form "hat" with hot melt or white glue and let dry. When you put the hat on top of the base it forms a complete forest and looks quite realistic. Open the lid and you can place the figures inside and they are completely invisible to the enemy-- often to you, so ambushes and hidden movement is quite possible.

I use these in my regular large battle games and they are wonderful and the only way I have ever seen to mimic forest fighting. At one battle I was GM'ing and one player was wailing that he didn't have enough troops to fight the enemy who was cleaning his clock. After a few times of this I pointed out to him "What do you mean?" What about all your troops in the forest!" he said "What troops in the forest." I took him over and lifted up the lids on 4 of the 8 forest boxes to show his troops crammed in there where he had left them!" He had forgotten his troiops were inside.

later in the same game I had to show him again.

It's a bit of work up front but the result is excellent in game terms, and it's easily repairable, and it's made of GARBAGE! so who cares if it gets rough handling? The problem with Woodland scenic and model Railroad terrain is its hopelessly fragile and simply will not take the rough handling of a game. I know I tried it years ago and was continually repairing the trees. Besides Model RR terrain pressed into game use also deteriorates even when not on the table top. It's not mean't to be handled.

It's a fair pile of work up front but once it's done it's done and it ends endless arguments about who can see who where, first, and what.

Thats a very good idea.
A company called Barb's Bunkers used to sell something similar at HMGS conventions.

Another cheap idea is to buy cake decorating trees (Pine Trees). They come in packs of 144 (1 gross). They are green plastic to start with, but with a coat of spray paint, a quick brush of white glue with some brown paint mixed in, then a dip in various colors of flock they look great.
I usually put from 3 to 5 trees like above on an old CD.
Several CDs worth of trees can be arranged to make anything from a tree line to a dense forest. If you want to put troops in, just remove a CD for the time being.

"And hopefully they have a non-toxic variety"

??

Referring to Chinese companies' apparent disregard for using safe materials in the manufacturing process.

Interesting: has anyone (apart from perhaps the actual guys during the process of making the models) ever suffered any side-effects of handling them?

N.B, This does not mean to be as callous as perhaps it might appear!

This method may work well: TMP link

M.

What's the best way to attach those model railroad trees to a base?

Would basing them on washers work?