"Looking for good rules set" Topic

I realize there's a ton of choice for rules, but it's overwhelming for someone basically brand new to historical gaming. I'm basically looking for rules that:

* Allow use of tactics in order to win
* Fairly simple rules that aren't too complicated or unwieldy
* Has something to differentiate troops for a particular civilization (not a major requirement)
* Takes around 2 hours or so to play a game
* Can ideally be played on a smallish table; I have a dinner table that's 4'x3'

The figure size doesn't matter that much but I'm probably looking at 15mm to save overall cost and to be able to dabble in different games if I choose to as that seems the most common and 6mm is a bit too small for my taste.

I'm sure there are many, many rules that meet this criteria but I'm curious as to what more experienced people prefer and have tried. I've tried doing my own research but I am confused by the vast amount of rules and figures out there, trying to figure out what is supported, what is OOP, etc. I am used to buying everything from one company (e.g. Warhammer, Warmachine etc.) so being spoilt for choice, while a good thing, is overwhelming.

I am not playing as part of a group but with a regular opponent (my brother) for some occasional fun games at home, and I haven't found any other historical wargamers around so there isn't a preference for any one system. I have been eying the "Sword and Spear" rules that I saw some favorable reviews of and which seemed (from the previews I've seen) to be clear and straightforward without being cumbersome (and I liked the fact it let you build an army versus using a static force), but I'm curious about other rules that are commonly used to make an informed decision.

Neil Thomas's Ancient and Medieval Wargaming is ideal. Not always easy to get, but this was our latest game (discussed on TMP yesterday … Trebian's Asculum
Three and a half hours and a much bigger table than you suggest but this was a big game (more than double-sized) … 20mm plastics for this game but it is not figure size dependent. It suits armies based up to the WRG/FoG/Armati standard …

It and other Neil Thomas games tick most of your boxes

Phil
Ancients on the Move

DBA is a starter point for what you want.

" clear and straightforward " in no way describes DBA.

Yesthatphil,

I'll have to check those rules out. The idea of 20mm figures is tempting as well, I admit I'm still new to scales and what sizes are what, so I'm mostly concerned with not breaking the bank :) I seen some 1/72 scale figures that looked really nice, and the plastics were like dirt cheap (like $12 USD for 40) but seemed like they were more like for dioramas and the like, but I suppose they can be used fairly well for miniatures as well, so that's really tempting to look into.

Punkrabbit and Kodiakblair,

I have heard that DBA is written in a… rather dry tone that makes it somewhat hard to figure out :P

If you are moving into historical wargaming from a Warhammer background I would recommend 'Hail Caesar'. My son found it an easy transition!

link

I would recommend Basic Impetvs. It's free it's a fun set, and if you someday want to do larger battles you can step up to regular Impetvs.

Hi Wayniac,

While the previous versions were hard to figure out, v3 is somewhat easier IMO.

However, don't take my word for it. Go here;

wrg.me.uk

Download the draft version (very close to final), and make your own mind up.

It's free. When it is published you will get all the army lists, diagrams, etc. If you want to try it out, people on the Fanaticus Forum, or the Yahoo DBA group are quite friendly to newcomers* and will help out with a couple of army lists for you to try.

Cheers,
JohnG
*sometimes some are not friendly to each other. I don't blame them being stuck in my computer all that time….

Here is the link to Basic Impetvs with the rules and army lists.

dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html

Our group plays Armati 2. Clear consise rules, you can play single size armies or double size buying troops with the point system. Our games last 1 hour for cavalry actions, 2 hours for mostly infantry. Basing is all the same. There is always a clear winner. This is a real thinking persons game, good tactics are rewarded.

Forget I said anything. I'm going back on my meds now….

WMA is simpler than HC?

Start with DBA. The "language" thing is way overdone for those who stayed awake during grade school grammar classes. For the more troubling passages, there is so much help on the web and various forums that any question can be answered quickly and easily.

DBA may not be enough for you after a while, and moving on to one of the other rulesets may be advisable. But DBA is designed for 12- element (ie, base) armies of 2-4 figures per element, an ideal starting point. Most ancients/medieval rulesets also use DBA basing or else are amenable to DBA basing, so you will not be stuck with a massive re-basing problem. That is one of the great things about this corner of the wargaming world.

Thanks all, looks like I have more research to look into! I remember Warmaster from way back when, I didn't think it was still around in any form. I was also looking, as I said above, at the Sword & Spear rules by Mark Lewis since I've read some good reviews, but ultimately most of them look like variations of the same thing.

How do those games work with 1/72 scale (20mm?) figures? My brother had mentioned Ancient Egypt so I found a couple of cheap 1/72 plastic boxes online (from a company called Caesar Miniatures) that looks promising although I have no idea how many would go on a base etc. yet, and that seems like a really cheap way to get figures since an entire army would be like $50 USD, in plastic without much assembly, and slightly larger than 15mm scale so look a bit better without getting into 28mm expenses. I figure I can always expand to 15mm at a later date if I play with others, but for just me and my brother the look is pretty important while keeping it on the cheap as we don't want to invest heavily right now.

This is a useful site for 1/72 plastic set reviews.
link

Welcome to ancients. If you are anything like me then you will end up reading more than you ever thought you would.

Ok, before I go back on my meds…. LOL.

How do those games work with 1/72 scale (20mm?) figures?

Just fine would be the answer for all the above mentioned games, which is wonderful isn't it?

My brother had mentioned Ancient Egypt so I found a couple of cheap 1/72 plastic boxes online (from a company called Caesar Miniatures) that looks promising although I have no idea how many would go on a base etc.

Great figures and period. I researched this to death in 1/72 for WMA.

If weapons and such are bent, heat up some water in the microwave as if making coffee. Dip the bent part in the water. It will be soft. Quickly straighten the piece and dip the fig into ice water. No more bending. I've done this with my Caesar figures with great success. (Bending is a problem with their figures because they cut them from the sprue and toss them in the box when the figs are still too warm, I have been told online.) This was a free value added tip. Now back to the thread…

1/72 basing for WMA and any game using a 20mm x 40mm base. I began this thread a while ago on the subject. Check it out. Good stuff there.

TMP link

yet, and that seems like a really cheap way to get figures since an entire army would be like $50 USD USD, in plastic without much assembly, and slightly larger than 15mm scale so look a bit better without getting into 28mm expenses.

Cheap and fantastic looking. You can also supplement with 20mm metal figures.

Plastic Soldier Review is a great place to start:
link

Scale Hobbyist sells Caesar under their Pegasus link, for reasons I don't know. scalehobbyist.com Sprue Brothers is also good.

Do a google search for 1/72 Warmaster Ancients for lots of ideas.

I did originally find those figures on Plastic Soldier Review; starting to love that site :D

So as I understand it, most historical rules go off the base dimensions, either width or depth or sometimes both, and while there's guidelines it tends to be flexible as far as how you do it? The actual figures don't matter as much as the basing (I have to get my head around this as coming from Warhammer years ago, individual models matter etc.)? I know I've seen in references to DBA previously things like 4x4 where the second number is like how many figures there should be, but I've seen elsewhere that the number doesn't matter as long as the base (stand? Not sure of terminology here) is a certain amount for each type of unit.

DBA and WMA use stands. A stand tends to be 20mm x 40mm if using 15mm or smaller figures. In these rules, it doesn't matter how many figures on a stand. All it matters is how many stands you have. Usually three stands per unit is standard. You build your armies using units. You remove stands from units to show casualties and reduce a unit's effectiveness. (I just place casualty markers instead of removing stands, which also works fine to be honest.)

Hail Caesar and Warhammer Ancients do not use stands. They use individual figures based individually. You might have 24 or 36 figures grouped together in rows and columns to for their "units". WA uses figure removal to show casualties. HC does not. The size of WA units is fairly fixed. HC is extremely flexible in sizes as long as everyone agrees how few or many figures should be in a unit. Using stands in HC instead of individual work pretty easy. This is how I played HC BTW.

You can download the free Warmaster fantasy rules to get a good feel for how Warmaster Ancients works. Google it.

Honestly, I have or have had all the rules mentioned in this thread, plus some not mentioned. I found good ideas in all of them.
-----------

Here is my New Kingdom army lists for 1/72 figures using WMA rules. The units are 3-stands each. I figured using 30mm x 60mm bases with four figures per base for foot soldiers, though you might be able to get more figures on. I hope you like chariots because they are king during this period! They are 1-chariot per base, three per unit. (At least in 1/72 chariots are cheaper than larger scales but will be the big $$ cost of the army.) I also created some Assyrian lists as well.

1000 points is the minimum for all Warmaster games. In WMA 1000pts gives a decent game, unlike in the Fantasy version. The game really comes into its own the more units you can have.

1000pt
1x General Chariot
1x Leader Chariot
3x Infantry (36)
4x Archers (48)
1x Marines (12)
3x Skirmishers (36)
2x Chariot Runners (24)
4x Chariots (12)

2000pt
1x General Chariot (Ramses)
2x Leaders on Foot
1x Leader in Chariot
6x Infantry (72)
8x Archers (96)
2x Marines (24)
3-4x Mercenaries (36-48)
3-4x Skirmishers (36-48)
4x Chariot Runners (48)
8x Chariots (24)

My partial notes on figures and how I can use a box of them. I never sussed out the infantry box.

SKIRMISHERS
* 1 box Caesar H049 Nubian Warriors (43 Figures: 32 Bows, 8 Sword, 1 Kadesh, 1 Spear, 1 Egyptian Drummer each box) 3 Units, 7 Extras link

* 1 box Caesar H022 Biblical Era Libyan Warriors (42 Figures: 12 Bows, 4 Spears, 24 Swords, 2 Command Swords each box). 3 Units, 6 Extras. link

CHARIOTS
* 7 boxes Caesar H024 Ancient Egyptian Chariots (2 Chariots & Crew, 4 runners each box)

There is an online Warmaster army selector. There also is a downloadable version. They really help.

wm-selector.appspot.com

Man, am I selling WMA tonight or what! Whatever you choose, have fun! Ancients in 1/72 is cool. Just beware the lure of gaming Romans…. ;-)

I'm fond of both Hail Caesar and Might of Arms. I have a love/hate relationship with DBA; I really WANT to like the game, but we just never seem to get on well. As for figs, I'm a 6mm diehard for mass combat games. Even a small number of stands looks like an ARMY, and they paint up very quickly. Before you take the plunge, take a look at some 6mm armies (e.g. on the Baccus site).

Doug

This issue of WSS is excellent for chariot wars Biblical gaming. It will give a good overview of the period with many good ideas and photos of available miniatures and rules. Here is the issue's homepage: link

You can buy the PDF version for a few dollars: link

I hope everyone in this thread has helped you in some way. Keep us posted on your progress.

I too mostly use 15mm figures on a 4' x 3' table. My two favourites for quickish 60-120 min games are Lost Battles / Strategos and Commands & Colors: Ancients. I enjoy others too, but they are mostly covered in this thread already.

Lost Battles / Strategos ticks all your boxes except that it can be tough to learn by yourself (rules can be hard to grasp at first) and the tactics are broad-brush (move up in centre, withhold left, outflank on right etc) rather than detailed (move unit x to charge range and halt, shoot with velites and fall back 2" and so on).

If you want to check it out, you can get the Strategos II rules (earlier incarnation of Lost Battles) from the Society of Ancients for around 6 GBP, I think. You'd also want to join the yahoo group and download the quick reference sheet from there as that makes it much easier to work out the rules in play. link

Commands & Colors: Ancients is hex-based, so may not be your cup of tea. Again, fits all your criteria, except that the tactics rely upon card play as well as on-table moves. If you don't mind cards limiting what you can do then you might enjoy it. I would say it's more of a game than a simulation though. Bear in mind that it's actually a boardgame, but it plays very well with miniatures too.

You can find out more about it here: ccancients.net

Another one that you could put on your radar is Simon Miller's forthcoming set "To the Strongest". See his bigredbat blog for more info on that.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Aaron

link

Welcome to historical gaming! Be advised that asking 'what are the best rules' will always get you a multitude of responses. If you are familiar with Warhammer, try warhammer ancients or it's successor clash of empires (link above). Very much the Warhammer format, with special rules for different national flavour. Even if you end up with another set, this will give you an easy entry into the period with familiar mechanics.
I would avoid WRG products like the plague if you are just starting. For me they are about as much fun as watching paint dry. DBA is just checkers to me, all armies are 12 units (bases) strong. Ymmv.

For free games to try how about:

Ancients D6 -- link

Ancient Battlelines Clash -- link

Ancient Warfare Fast Play rules by Terry Gore -- link

For a list of several free rules sets try: link

Wayniac,

Yesthatphil has already mentioned Neil Thomas' AMW & pointed you at my blog where it is used a lot.

Ancients, like any period, has its fanboys and pet hates as you'll see from the comments above. At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion and wargamers love to have an opinion.

I use three ancient sets, depending on what I want to do: AMW, DBA and Armati II. Of these three the one that gives a good game in 2 hours on a 4x3 table and is quick to learn is AMW. Honestly, you'll know all the rules in 10 minutes. It ticks all of the boxes you've asked for in your opening paragraph. You can get the Kindle version for less than $20 USD or the paperback copy for $35. USD It's a good place to start as it will answer all of your questions clearly in one volume without the need for errata, army list books, supplements and so on. You can get loads of advice for free but then you also tend to get the quality and depth that goes with free as well (speaking as someone with quite a few sets of his own free rules posted out there).

The other advantage of AMW is that it is a proper introduction to Ancient Wargaming. After the rules for each sub-period (minor tweaks to move from Biblical to Classical to Dark Ages to Medieval) there's a short section on each army covered by the book – about 50, I think, – with an army list, some background on how it fought and a list of easily accessible sources.

The armies in a standard game are 8 units, at most about 100 figures, infantry and cavalry.

As for figures, – lots of good advice on Plastic Soldier Review, as stated above. If cost is a factor look at the Hat 1/72 plastics hat.com/current.html. For each army they cover the range is enough to give you all you need. Each infantry box contains 4 identical sprues. As your heavy infantry are four figures to a base you get nice, neat, looking units with virtually no waste. They fit on a 60mm element as well with no problems. I think they're designed with wargamers in mind. Cavalry are generally 3 sprues of 4 figures which is handy as a cavalry element is normally 3 figures.

It is true that it is the area of the base that is important, not the number of figures. However it is best to stick to the conventions in the rules so it's clear what everyone is looking at.

Best of luck,

Trebian
PS There's a label on my blog for AMW, which'll link you to quite a few postings and games of varying sizes. Otherwise there's a number of postings showing photos of finished Hat figures all based up into units. Look at the "Hat" and "painting" labels. link

Lots of good recommendations and advice given above. I'm glad to hear you are considering my Sword & Spear rules, which meet most of your requirements.
You will find that your third requirement (differentiation of troops by nationality) is not really met by any of the generic ancients & medieval rules, except for where troop types were very distinct and specific to a nation (e.g. Roman legionaries). Things like troop quality, equipment and armour levels are typically used to differentiate troops rather than nationality.
To narrow down the recommendations above, you need to decide what type of game you want to play. IMO the main two factors to consider are:
1) Unit / Element based or individual figure removal.
2) Traditional IGO/UGO (take turns and move all of your troops on your turn) or a command and control system which restricts how many units you can activate each turn and what you can do with them, modelling the friction and uncertainty of battle.

For example, my Sword & Spear rules are unit based, with no figure removal. Hits on each unit are recorded (we use small dice placed beside the unit) and when this reaches a certain level the unit is removed.
They have an interactive turn sequence where both players are involved in activating units, but not all units are normally activated each turn. This type of game can be hard to get used to (and can be frustrating at times) for someone used to having their troops all do exactly what they want, when they want. It also means there is a resource management element to the game which creates interesting and challenging decisions, and the decisions you make are normally what determines the outcome of the game.

Hello Mark,

Actually I did just buy your Sword and Spear rules in PDF format last night, but haven't had a chance to read it yet. After talking with my brother he said that he wanted a game where you could basically build your army (with points values or similar) versus having a static force (which eliminated DBA) so we could pick different types of armies (and coupled with relatively cheap 1/72 plastics this becomes even better!).

I am also looking into AMW and Warmaster Ancients (but I think that is OOP as I cannot find it) for comparisons to make an informed decision.

Hi Wayne –

Warmaster Ancients has been OOP since GW closed its Warhammer Historical branch two years ago. Hail Caesar is by the same author (Rick Priestley), and employs many similar game mechanics to those found in WMA.

As mentioned above, in HC figures are organized into units, and there is no individual figure removal. The rules are quite flexible in regard to basing, unit and army size. For those of us who play HC using 15-18 mm figures, the most popular standard unit frontage is either 80 mm or 120 mm. For 20 mm figures, standard unit frontages appears to similar, although some players go up 160 mm.

Although geared primarily for light-hearted scenario play among friends, the HC rulebook also includes a basic points system for those who prefer to use one for building their armies.

Cheers,
Scott

Hello Scott,

I will definitely check out Hail Caesar; I've played a little of Bolt Action and it was really fun, so Warlord is definitely a company I would support.

-Wayne

Wayniac,

I normally don't get involved in "best rules" threads as the default position for everyone is "the rules I use". In this case you put out a really clear brief, – if you are serious about your 5 points then you have to be careful with what you chose.

For example I have viewed but haven't played HC, but I have played the set it grew out of, "Black Powder". There is no way that playing those rules will give you two or three of your requirements. It will need more than 2 hours to play, and it will need an area bigger than you 4' x 3'. That's not to say that they're not a good set of rules, – they just don't tick all/most of your boxes.

Similarly if you are not going to play really regularly you'll find a lot of your games will be spent flicking backwards and forwards through the rule book. I'm fairly cynical about claims that rules are simple and easy to learn, – have a look at this blog: link

Trebian

Thank you for the link, Trebian. I've also bought the ebook version of AMW to look at as well; the simplicity in it seems to be intuitive without being too simulationist, and while the 8 unit limit is a bit limiting (however it doesn't seem like it would be that bad to increase it to 10 or 12) some flexibility is still there, and beyond that the only thing I somewhat lament is nothing requiring a general/commander.

I am going to read through that and Sword and Spear later tonight to come up with a better decision but right now I think it's a toss-up between those two, leaning slightly towards AMW for simplicity as my mind is already churning with ideas for a small campaign and a simple rules set would work very well for that.

-Wayne

But DBA is designed for 12- element (ie, base) armies of 2-4 figures per element,

Big battle DBA uses 36 elements in an army (basically 3 ordinary DBA armies) and in 15mm will work fine ona 4 by 3.

and it will need an area bigger than you 4' x 3'.

If you are using HC with 15mm figures then halve all the distances and ranges and your 4 by 3 becomes equivalent to an 8 by 6, or use cms instead of inches and your 4 by 3 is now equivalent to 10 by 7.5!!

But DBA is designed for 12- element (ie, base) armies of 2-4 figures per element,

Big battle DBA uses 36 elements in an army (basically 3 ordinary DBA armies) and in 15mm will work fine ona 4 by 3.

and it will need an area bigger than you 4' x 3'.

HC as written is designed for 28mm figures. If you are using HC with 15mm figures then halve all the distances and ranges and your 4 by 3 becomes equivalent to an 8 by 6, or use cms instead of inches and your 4 by 3 is now equivalent to 10 by 7.5!!

Wayniac,

The game scales up. We've played games with 500+ figures aside. For generals, – put in a house rule. We play that he can re-roll dice once per turn if attached to a unit. Better generals (eg Alexander) get to pick exactly which dice to roll.

Because the framework is so simple it is a really easy set to modify to your own tastes.

What ever you chose, have fun.

Trebian

Wayniac

I forgot to mention Rally Round The King from Two Hours Wargames. The Rules started out for fantasy using historical armies then the historical supplement came out.

Obviously they play in under 2 hours,use a 3' x 3' board,are stand based,random army lists if you want.

Not an IGOYGO system it's all down to unit reactions and great for solo play. They have a really good forum at

link

and even better if you have any question Ed the rule creator is on the form every day so you generally get your answers pronto or from another player. Armies are normally 20 odd stands strong.

Hhttp://unitrecon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/single-based-ancients-adding-value.htmlere's my advice on using single based figures for multiple rules:

Scutarii from Hoplite Research should meet what you are looking for. link
The rules will work with any basing system or figure scale.

Just wading in since I found myself in a very similar circumstance. Several have recommended Neil Thomas' AMW. He also has a book called "Wargaming: An Introduction". Very easy quick play rules for various eras. I got it for $7.98 USD at half price books. Lot of replayability since you choose eight units out of a list of about 12 possibilities. Perfect for 1/72 plastics as you can build an army with only a few boxes. I recommend Zvezda Egyptians over Ceasar except for the chariots. Good Luck and welcome to TMP. Please continue to post your progress in the hobby and any questions that may arise along the way.