"OGRE in Hammer's Slammers (Cruicible)" Topic

Folks, I have a 15mm OGRE and it never gets any combat time. I have a friend visiting soon who is an ex-OGRE player. I thought it may be fun to give him the OGRE and I'll throw some cool toys at it in a slug-fest. Except, here's my problem, I've never played OGRE so I don't know what this one is or what it should be capable of.

Can anyone give me some guidance how I can stat it for the HS rules?

My OGRE:

In the OGRE-verse, anything that close is probably already dead. Those guys play with tac nukes as standard weaponry. It's crazy!

Having said that, giant cyber tanks on the battlefield is always fun.

Neither of the rules I usually play for 15mm sci fi (Stargrunt II and Tomorrow's War) really deal with that sort of thing in a detailed fashion. Come to think of it, though, I might stat up an OGRE as a multi-part vehicle so that individual sections can be targeted (much like in the OGRE boardgame). That would be more manageable and in keeping with the "we blew off a big section but oh-my-Hammer-it's-still-coming!!!" feel of OGRE.

TREADWAY SIGNAL AWAY!

Stuuuh – I shall do some pondering while the day slips by me and re-post latef :)

John T

Was't their a thred on TMP a while back about this? Scuppered if I can find it though. If I remember correctly, I think we discussed componentising the Ogre into separate 'things' esentially the Ogre would be a detachment or double detachment all on it's own.

Thinking off of the top of my head (coz i hnestly can't rememeber what was said previously):

It would have heavy armour from most angles – a 12DV or possibly 13DV at the front, but perhaps vehicles could get between the tracks and that might be a weaker area at 11DV

Maybe the Track units themselves could each be a vehicle in itself and – every time one was destroyed it would slow the vehicle, possibly?

Each big turreted gun (I haven't played Ogre in 25 years and am unfamiliar with exactly how many weapons the different marks of Ogre sport) could also be, again, effecively a separate vehicle, enabling the loss of a turret and weapon without destruction of the entire Ogre.

I'm not really sure how Ogres play: is it a gradual 'grinding down' of the big vehicle? Or is it a loss of weapons. If it's the latter, then maybe they could just be a very heavy standard tracked tank with a number of weapons systems, all of which could fire. Lots of special crushing rules if things get in its way…

Remind me, are Ogre's used in 'multiples' or are the games always one big Orge versus lots of 'little' tanks?

Oh, and when it coms to Nukes, the Slammers certainly use a nuclear dampening field ('magic wand' gizmo) so that nukes are rarely used in the stories, but are available if needs be (they're called 'red pills' by the arillery chaps).

So – in the Slammerverse – perhaps that's why Ogre's never really emerge as the ultimate 'nuclear' option is – in some way – negated.

I need to find that thread on TMP (or we need someone who knows Ogre far better than I do…)

John T

PS – that is a brilliant looking 15mm Ogre, sir!

Looks like a Mk III of some sort.
Main gun is a honking big plasma cannon.
Secondaries are rapid fire railguns.
Plus a dozen or so anti-personnel mg's.

Original game you either target the individual weapons or a block of tracks (to slow it down).

See Ashley's site for better details;
panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk

Looking at Ashley's site, are those infantry in the foreground in scale with the Ogres at the rear?

link

If they are then Ogres aren't as big as I thought they were…

And if that's the case, then they should just be very heavy tanks in the Slammerverse:

Plasma guns = big power guns (25cm plus) ShEoT, FP4/9
Rapid fire Railguns = either 6cm Railguns Sh1, FP2/7 or the faster firing Heavy Rapid Fire Coil Gun Sh4, FP1/4 each (with a chance at anti-artillery and missile hits)
MGs could be a Heavy support weapon (Sh2, FP1/3 each) or a 1cm Gatling railgun (Sh3, FP1/3 each)

Speed would probably be Heavy Tracked Slow (8cm per turn)

The weapons are on this chart PDF link

Armour value at 13DV for the front, less at the sides, top and rear. Looks like it'd have a reenforced lower hull against mines.

If it has the systems it could have extra spaced armour against buzzbombs (like the MCEC: PDF link )or anti buzz bomb ADS systems but – again – I don't know Ogres well enough.

It could also use the repair rule "Field mechanic" Elite Skill PDF link to repair minor hits on a quality roll. If you wanted it to take even more hits before ultimately brewing up, you could extend that Elite skill and use some kind of an additional special quality roll to attempt to reduce destroyed rolls (those on a 5 or 6 plus result on the Damage Chart) to minor hits but that'd make it very hard to stop, requiring multiple hits to detroy it, depending on what it's quality roll was (I assume the AI would confer an – effective – training level of "Elite" so the quality roll would be a 3+).

Are these ideas of any use??

John T

Ogres were inspired by Keith Laumner's Bolos, so use that as your size reference. The one in the photograph is an Ogre Mk III armed with one primary battery, four secondary batteries, four missiles and I think 8 anti-personnel batteries. In the game it had 45 tread units.

The miniatures are 1/285 scale. While 1/285 scale, the infantry are "oversized" and represent a squad of approximately 10 power-suited soldiers.

Per the Ogre rules (going from memory here), the primary battery had an attack value of 4 and a range of 3 (4/3). Secondary batteries are 3/2, while AP batteries were 1/1 and could only target infantry and non-hardened buildings. I can't remember the missiles stats; something like 4/6. Each weapon had a defense value I can't remember off the top of my head.

Most Ogres have a speed of 3; each 1/3 loss of treads reduced the Ogre's movement by 1. So, the Mk III could take 15 tread damage per movement point. Once the last tread was destroyed, the Ogre became immobile. Tread were attacked at a 1:1 odds with the number of tread destroyed equaling the attack value of the attacker.

Combat was a simple ratio of attack versus defense strengths indexed against a CRT and a single d6. Multiple attackers could combine their attack strengths. Results were "No Effect", "Disabled" and "Destroyed". Only "Destroyed" results affected Ogres.

In combatting Ogres, you basically beat the thing down, destroying weapons and treads until nothing was left.

The Basic Ogre game has a Mk III facing a mechanized armor battallion – roughly 12 armor units and 20 infantry squads. The "Advanced" scenario had a Mk V facing 20 armor and 30 infantry. The Mk V has a second primary battery, two additional secondaries, two addional missiles and a total of 12 AP guns. Oh, and 60 tread units.

The follow on game to Ogre was called "GEV" and was more of a traditional armor wargame with Ogres thrown in. The larger games have multiple Ogres per side as well as "traditional" armor units.

So – sizewise – are we looking at that articulated Mk III being say 50m long?

John T

PS, think its GEV I played all thos eyears ag. But I might be wrong…

PPS I haven't read the Bolos material either but I am aware of it. Just none of the details!

An Ogre Mk III minature is about 3.5 inches long. At 1/285 scale that comes out to about 83 feet, which I believe is about 34 or so meters.

An Ogre Mk III minature is about 3.5 inches long. At 1/285 scale that comes out to about 83 feet, which I believe is about 34 or so meters.

I know size isn't everything (!) but that's a vital bit of info for m thoughts: about three times the length of a Slammers Blower then.

Let me do some more thinking…

John T

EDIT – 83 feet is 25 and a bit metres not 34. So just over twice the length of an (around) 11 metre Blower tank

I knew that. ;-)

<slinks off in embarrassment>

I'm bet'm the Slammers would KO an OGRE … but they might take some losses … My 3 6mm ORGEs [ignore the CBT WALKERs]

vs. my 6mm Slammer TF Legion Place your bets boys ! We got ourselves a horse race ! Could be messy though …

Nice Ogres L4

's'all good nukesnipe: the important thing is I have some idea of what I'm up against, size/rules wise.

So what I'd need is an idea of the complete weaponry and relative armour value of the Ogres (and a size thing of 'bigger or smaller' than a Mk III).

I assume they all travel at much the same speed so it's just about armour and weapons and a rule for converting 'kills' to lesser hits.

Question, are the Ogres ever used 'en masse' (by which I mean say four of them) – or are there only ever one grinding it's way over a landscape?

And – if more than one is used at a time – do the different marques fight along side or is it always "a pair of Mk II's" or something?

John T

Many Thanks JT … Also, BTW, fortunately the Slammers have Nuc dampening devises …

Thanks folks, this is great info, lots to think about.

JT – this OGRE will not be used 'en masse', I only have one…

…but I was tempted to update the tech a bit with a firefly-like drone swarm or two.

Hi John,
I don't know about other folks but our group does do OGRE games en masse.

As to the infantry size you commented on, the infantry figures are deliberately oversized in comparison to the OGRE miniatures.
Which is something I never cared for, it lessens the impact of the OGRE's size.

John T. – you might want to check out Steve Jackson Games' Ogre page: sjgames.com/ogre

Patrick – if that's your personal collection, I'm insanely green with envy! What are you using for the hex terrain?

Nukesnipe,
The ones not on bases are mine with the exception of the white MK V and the three colored Fencer.The rest belong to various members of our group.
And I am slightly embarrassed to say that the collection has grown since the picture was taken and also, it doesn't show the tanks, GEVs etc.
The hexes are from GHQ and my friend Tony has done an immenense amount of work painting, texturing, making hills, roads and stream along with all the other work involved.
The space under the tables is completely filled with totes that are in turn completely filled with hexes, most of which have a code written on the bottom to facilitate setting up the table and breaking it down.

By the way, Legion 4, that collection rocks.

Thanks,

Pat

Stuuuh, you could order the OGRE Miniatures rules from ebay. I just bought a copy for 15.00 US. However, they are out of print from Steve Jackson Games, so what ever you can find on ebay is the price. The movement values that are stated above are doubled in the OGRE miniatures rules (convert to inches), and the miniatures game also doubles the range on the weapons systems. Just look on Steve Jackson Games website and they've put up stat sheets for the OGREs and the various other armored units. There is also a very inexpensive copy of the rules with counters that SJG is selling in honor of the first set of OGRE rules that sold for 2.95 in 1979 (or so). That is in print and for sale on the SJG website. Enjoy!

Check out SJG's Warehouse 23: link

The Ogre Designer's Edition Kickstarter resulted in some out of print things being made available again, especially in as pdfs.

Some Ogre facts:

1) Ogres are huge, powered by a fusion reactor.

2) Ogres cannon fire nuclear tipped smart rounds. Even their anti-personnel weapons.

3) Ogres are protected by Biphase Carbide (BPC) armor, several meters thick in fact (hence the need for nuclear warheads).

4) All Ogre missiles are armed with nuclear warheads. The Ogre battlefield is a nuclear one (hence why all infantry run around in powered armor suits).

5) Ogres are self aware AIs. Think Skynet with its own integral nuclear arsenal.

The Slammers will have their hands full, with everything depending upon how well their AAA can intercept incoming rounds. Anything gets through, it's going to hurt like Hell.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

By the way, Legion 4, that collection rocks.

Thanx ! As does your's !

The Slammers will have their hands full, with everything depending upon how well their AAA can intercept incoming rounds. Anything gets through, it's going to hurt like Hell.

Well the Slammer smaller Power Guns under AI should take care of the incoming. And as I said, the have Nuc dampening tech … But it will still be a tough fight, and the Slammers will take some losses … It really could go either way …

Just caught this thread. The Ogre battle armour are 10mm tall representing 8 foot high power armour infantry. One figure represents up to six men.

As for Ogres being used en masse, yes. Mark 4s & 5s formed HK teams for example. Mark 1s in teams of four. Multi Ogre pile-ups de rigueur.

Remember minimum range in Ogre/GEV is 1500 metres per hex, approx one mile.

PS: Ogres are brought down by a combination of defanging them, and then grinding down the movement, because even an unarmed Ogre can still crush by ramming.

PPS: @ JT you did read my Ogre article in MWBG #373, didn't you? ;-)

Here's a thread with information on the dimensions of OGREs: link

EDIT: It also has links to CAD art, like this:
flic.kr/p/jCm2t6

Paint it Pink

Yes – but not in as much detail as I needed to… :)

I started on a play sheet for an Ogre but this is spiralling alot for the different types and marques so I've put it on hld while real life takes the front seat for a while.

John T

@JT keep me in the loop, as I'd be interested in seeing what comes out of this.

email me: Ashley(at)apnix(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk

Paint it Pink – as I'd seen at Salute you recently bought a copy of The Crucible, I'd be happy with any input you might have on this.

I know that Ogre/GEV is a slick and well tried system but I'm keen to give people the tools they might want to play any crossovers they desire.

With your intimate Ogre knowledge (and longstanding gaming experience) I can think of few better qualified on this topic than yourelf.

John T

But I'm a complete Crucible newbie… she splutters.

What no pouting? why Ashley im shocked… ;)

I didn't get any further thn this beore I ran out of time yesterday.

PDF link

Very much a WIP so comments are welcome

John T

Wasn't it 'Across the stars' Drakes modern version of the Homer's 'Odyssey' that had the gigantic AI tank in it? hmmm if so i can see where this could lead…..

It was the Voyage: great big Grav tanks. Cross the stars had some interesting remote controlled vehicles, as I remember.

As Dave Drake said that he didn't want them included in the body of the rules as source material, I have read them but only once each and so not with the forensic approach of his other cannon Slammers stuff.

So my memory is a little vague.

It's the reason the power ar our rules (also something that features in The Voyage) didn't make it into the rule book either (though I did do a MiniWargs article on them and they are on the site as a PDF).

John T

John and all contributors, a huge Thank you!

The PDF looks great, and wow, that is a lot more firepower than I would have guessed at. Between watching footy this w/e I'm going to have to try it out.

Stuart

Stuuuh – give me some feedback when you try it. If it's to much just drop the weapons down a notch.

John T

I don't think it could be too much -- it's an Ogre for heaven's sake!

In my opinion it should probably have at least some weapon(s) that can shoot 360 degrees -- maybe the ATGW?

By the way, I've played in those games with Pat's Ogres and it's a whale of a good time with about 20+ Ogres of all Marks per side!

I agree with the 360 degree thing, though it has soooo many weapons :) I think I did the missiles without firing angles (I figured they'd launch straight up and then be steered).

Talking of which I'd fit a sniper pod as well for missile guidance.

On refection the Dual feed Auto cannons could be 360 as well.

John T

John T, check your email if you please. There is indeed a draft floating about on using cybertanks in The Crucible from the last time this concept came up (August 2012ish: TMP link ).

F16 is dead right: that's where we'd covered it before.

Darn it and blast my failing memory. I did have a link on the Crucible site to his work (he'd already contributed forces and ideas to the original rule book) but I can't now find it on the site (on a quick look) any more than he can!

I will remedy this and republish his work on this on the Crcible sight over the weekend.

John T

Stuuh

have you any more (and bigger) pictures of your ogre you could email me?

John T

OK folks

Go to this page: link

F16s rules were there all along but they were buried on the PDF downloads sub page. This page – from the main menu under PDF Downloads/Non Canon – points to both of the non canon items on the site, both F16s Ogre rules and my power armour and mechs rules.

Have fun and feedbackalways welcome!

John T

JT,

Will take pics this w/e and send to you.

Stuart

Now all I need is someone to play a game of Crucible with.

@Stuuuh

I used the one you posted but am happy to sub it with another or add more to that page!

@Paint it Pink

We're planning to do a game with Commstar's guys at Bovington in July if you fancy looking at big tanks and small tanks!

John T

@Paint it Pink you are more than welcome to come join us all at Bovington :)

@John we may be using some power armour as well if I can get a lick of paint on them by then! Time is a ticking :)

Cheers Matt

I'd love to come to Bovington, always enjoy looking at the tanks, but I'm in Cambridge that weekend.

Power armour Matt?! Now I'll have to re-read the rules!

John T

Yep ;) that's two of us :)