"Hammer's Slammers Vs Ogre" Topic

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but has anybody ever tried to merge Hammer's Slammers with Ogre? seems to me that the two backgrounds are compatible, and a giant robotic tank is always fun!

Why not? :)

Decide how BPC handles powergun shots and proceed from that relationship.

Iridium: A rare stable element. Theoretically, if put into under extreme gravity and bonded to a carbon base it would be far stronger than BPC. Very expensive due to rarity in amounts needed and is very technical to manipulate.

BPC: Combination of amorphous steel and wound carbon nanotubes. Theoretically reguires a great deal of energy and expertise to manipulate.

I would think the Ogre's armor would be strong, but Hammer's hovertanks would be stronger yet – Ogres could never be afforded if built with iridium. Shrug. Cool idea.

Both armor types are superb at shrugging off incidental fire.

The meters of BPC on an Ogre are enough, just on thickness, to shrug off direct hits by conventional weapons and all but the best aimed of shots from tactical nukes. Even with a nuke, you gotta hit it just right. Pictures exist of Ogres with small diameter craters in their armor, suggesting surface TacNuke impacts that simply didn't cut the mustard. Wow.

The iridium plating on a Slammers blower is not nearly as thick, if only because blowers are still "conventional armor" size-wise, but unlike BPC, Iridium is not going to scale well. As Augustus says, you aren't going to get meters of iridium armor. Iridium's density and heat conductivity allows it to absorb and/or deflect powergun shots where most substances simply burn. A big blower that takes several non-lethal high-caliber powergun hits is probably going to glow red hot from nose to tail.

So now we swap weapons…

Vehicle level BPC is probably going to act similarly to the amount of iridium the same vehicle could carry when hit by a powergun. A high angle shot will be smeared across enough armor that penetration is less likely, but a solid shot is a killing shot. Where a powergun differs in Ogre terms is that vehicles hit are probably not going to suffer "D" results very often, but will be killed outright at about the same rate. Powerguns are all heat and little or no kinetic energy, so a solid hit will just cook the interior of the vehicle. Ogres have fewer worries, being so large and under many times the armor. A true Ogre is also under many layers of ECM, making the long direct fire ranges of powerguns much less effective. The narrow beam of a powergun relative to the size and lack of crew in an Ogre means that powergun hits will be under the same limitations as the nukes an Ogre is used to: right spot and the right angle for long enough, or no joy.

It has been a while since I dipped into Hammer's Slammers, so I don't recall if the question of iridium plating vs a nuke was ever addressed. Nukes do have some advantages over a powergun, however. They don't have to hit directly, they don't have to fire direct, and they also come with a large side order of kinetic energy. Against even the immensely heavy big blowers of the Slammers, tacnukes have the potential to push them around, blow out their cushion causing a temporarily immobilizing crash, or crater the landscape around them. ACVs hate craters. OGRE-verse GEVs are light, fast, and grossly over-engined and *they* hate craters. The big blowers of the Slammers stand no chance once an Ogre realizes how vulnerable they are to topography.
As for the armor itself, a tacnuke probably has a similar kill ratio as a powergun. Near-misses will stun or immobilize the blower for a short time, and a particularly close hit will leave the armor glowing, but it will take a tacnuke on the nose (or roof) to get a real kill.

But the automatic defense from the blowers' tribarrels would take out most of those tac nukes, which are indirect fire weapons, before they could get in detonation range. An OGRE's weapons would not be able to stop a shot from a powergun--but the powergun is limited to line-of-sight, so no over-the-horizon shots like from conventional units in OGRE.

Maybe. We don't have a good sense of rate-of-fire from an Ogre, nor how the firer's ECM would affect things like point defense guns. Ogre-verse AFVs don't carry PD, suggesting that it isn't terribly useful. The sense is that the guns are all high velocity, not lazy lobbers.

Remember a OGRE point shooting is a SatNuke (saturation Nuclear Cluster) to the zip code you are in, so point defense will get swamped.

If I where going to rate The Blowers in Ogre terms, they would be Heavy Tanks. Remember they are too heavy to cross water (or maybe a GEV like move with the stream crossing limitation). And Combat Cars as GEVs. And infantry as Milita with a GEV move (they ride Hover Jetskis).

The core thing to remember the Blowers are MBTs and a Ogre is a Continental Siege Unit. Ogres are basically immune to a single infantryman while a Blower isn't.

I think the assumption that since Ogre-verse tanks don't have PD means Slammer's PD would not be effective is false--the limitation in Ogre is that there isn't really a very powerful directed energy weapon capable of rapid fire (excepting immovable laser towers), while that's not true for the Slammers.

That said, I think that an Ogre shot would overwhelm a single platoon's worth of Slammer's PD, but not the supporting fires from a company's worth, but that's just my take and not necessarily supported by any facts in either -verse that I can remember.

Rob

Throw in a Bolo from the Dinochrome Brigade and we're all set.

isn't a bolo an Ogre anyway? I though it was just steve jackson not wanting to licence bolo.

This was the mid 1970s. What's a license?

Yeah yeah. Gundam vs. Lensman vs. Ogre vs. GoLion vs. Fist of the North Star vs. Ymir the beast from Venus vs. Jedi vs. Tarzan vs. the Blob vs. Dracula.

There is no "real" answer so you have to make one up and most people don't have consistency in their answers.

Actually the question has me wanting to try out my back of the envelope conversion. (shades of Henry Cobb….)

I use use G/W-F/W Epic, O/C 6mm Slammers, DRM, Exodus Wars, CinC, some OGREs, some GZG and few others 6mm on my gaming table … It's all good … and do what works for you …

Let's see here… two shots from a 20cm powergun is enough to soften ~50 tons of iridium to pretty much the melting point.

Iridium's atomic weight is 192, so one mole of iridium weighs 192 grams. 50,000,000grams armor mass divided by 192 grams per mole gives me 260416 moles of armor to melt. You need to pump 41.12kilojoules per mole of iridium to melt it. 10,708,333,333joules later, I have melted 50 tons of iridium. Cross-reference that with the Boom Table from Atomic Rockets, and each shot from a 20cm powergun delivers the equivalent energy of 1 ton of TNT.

I'm reasonably sure that a couple meters of BPC can take a 0.001kt impact. Whether they can take one such impact every 10 seconds or less at the same point is a different story.

In Drake's stories, although they have recourse to nuclear weapons themselves (nuclear artillery rounds – 'red pills' are in their arsenal as well as chemical and conventional rounds), the Slammers use something called a 'Nuclear Damper' (mentioned in the story 'The Butcher's Bill').

The thing can be either 'up' or 'down' so my assumption has always been that it is a field generator of some sort used by sophisticated forces (like the Slammers) which is the reason more stories don't descend into nuclear war very quickly (making for poor story telling from an armoured warfare perspective).

The only time I recall a 'red pill' being used by the Slammers themselves is against a relatively unsophisticated enemy at the end of a story (not surprisingly).

Other than a story telling device, I'm not sure exactly what a 'Nuclear Damper' is but it's obviously, as I said earlier, a field generator of some sort that greatly reduces (or, perhaps, completely removes) the effect of regular nuclear explosions without stopping nuclear reactions of a non-catastrophic type (the Slammers vehicles themselves use fusion generators to provide power). Removal of the nuclear component (a dampening of the 'chain reaction', I guess) of a Nuclear or Thermo-Nuclear bomb would reduce the weapon's effect to that of a regular explosive dirty bomb, one assumes.

So any Ogre or other force that is using nuclear tipped weapons against the Slammers needs to take that system (whatever it is) into account in any stand off!

John Treadaway

And remember, the Slammers fight as Combined Arms force … So it is unlikely 1 OGRE vs. 1 M2 Blower … And OGRE reminds me more of a big Mech or Titan. So the Slammers would not only be using MBTs, CAV, Mech(skimmer) Infantry, but their "Hog" SPFAs … As far terrain being a bit of a disadvantage for ACVs/GEVs. Good crews can work around that … just like an AFVs does today …

I scratched my head about Nuclear Dampers, then remembered the Traveller Wiki:

link

John, does that help at all?

Yes Knockman – that sounds like the ticket! Ta.

I expect the Slammers employ one of (or some of) those sort of things, probably in their enhanced electronics vehicles and whatnot!

John T

Traveller's Nuclear Dampers are dual purpose. They can do low-level area suppression/acceleration to clean up radiation contamination, and can also function as PD. Not *great* PD, but the functionality originated in space to deal with incoming missiles; LOTS of time to ID, track, and focus.

Not sure if what the Slammers use is the same thing.

Probably not the same thing as such, Farstar, but I expect whatever they employ has a similar result: no effective nuclear bombs/missiles thrown at the Slammers forces.

John T

Or at least no persistent radiation threat.

Being the supposedly higher TL force, the Slammers are eventually going to have a solution for an OGRE-verse force, but a canny OGRE or three (assuming "equal" forces) will make the Slammers, or whoever collects their intel for them, pay dearly for that victory.

Interesting discussion, and one that I've had with myself on and off for years (hey, no one else wants to hear my blathering, so I may as well talk to myself!). :)

There are a number of reasons that make this very much an unfair (in either direction) case of comparing apples and oranges.

1) The Slammers books have rich but sporadic detail as they are primarily stories.
2) The OGRE wargame was designed to balance forces within a) the OGRE-verse and b) on a hex-map where things like fliers simply were not wanted (yes, I know – laser towers shoot 'em down, but that's a self-justification argument for not having them in the game)
3) OGRE was clearly based on the various Bolo books (initial stories by Keith Laumer). These stories, especially after other authors starting writings as well had much richer pseudo-technical detail.

I tend to think that the OGRE version of the entire environment was purposely "dumbed down" as much as possible/necessary to allow for a classically styled boardgame. Because of this, you really don't get a good feel for things like the OGREs point defense potential. How many shells are in a "shot" from an OGRE howitzer counter? How many missiles in a missile tank salvo? And how do you know how much of the roll result of a 1:1 or 2:3 attack were clean misses, ECM, movement, terrain, or PDS? You don't because the EFFECTS have been boiled down into a rich, syrupy set of combat values like "Missile tanks has an attack of 2 and the OGRE main battery has a defense of 3" and that's ALL that you really know.

Because of this, I tend to think about the OGREs in terms of Bolos with (potentially) fewer systems. I don't, for example, consider the main battery to be a big cannon firing nuclear shells. That's a game-ism from the OGRE game. The Bolo hellbores simply make more sense.

So my OGREs would typically have the following (loose) characteristics:

Main Batteries and large, powerful energy weapons.
Secondary Batteries are large, long range, high tech cannons (usually a magnetic linear accelerator of some type).
The AP Batteries are smaller gun turrets that are capable of engaging soft targets (soft skin vehicles and infantry) and can act as ADS/PDS/AA weapons.
Missiles I leave as missiles, 'cause that's the mini has.
I give them very heavy armor (lots of BPC or Duralloy – very thick, usually with reactive armor and force screens as well) and very good ECM and targeting systems.

Slammers almost speak for themselves and Mr. Treadaway has done a fine job of listing out main systems. For example, from the books we know that the tri-barrels and calliopes are very effective anti-artillery systems.

How you game the two of them together depends on two things (IMHO).

1) How do you WANT them to balance out?
2) What kind of game system are you using?

Looking at item 2 first, you would end up with VERY different systems/capabilities if one person designed OGREs to play with the Hammer's Slammers rulebook while another designed the Slammers units to play with the OGRE/OGRE Miniatures rules.

I've not played the Slammers rules, though I do have them (beautiful reference materials!).

In a purely OGRE-rules based game, the Slammers units need the following:

Move rate
Range
Attack Value
Defense Value

No fluff for tri-barrels used in area defense mode on automatic, no specific representation of the reactive anti-buz-bomb systems, no specific values for their high-tech electronics. All of those are simply factored in as part of the 4 listed characteristics.

And while the Slammers verse is further in the future than OGRE, the Bolo stories span thousands of years, so who is really the higher tech level? For what it's worth, I'd place both at the high end of the tech spectrum in each venue, and make them roughly equal. If I wanted to lean a bit "bolo-ward", I would give both sides about the same tech level. If I wanted to lean more "OGRE-ward", I'd likely give the Slammers an edge in tech – just not a big one.

While my game group does not have any Slammers forces, the rules we use would work just fine for them, and we do periodically use OGREs. A Mk V can comfortably take on about a company of "contemporary" MBTs and still be able to fight, albeit in a diminished state. In our games artillery can be pretty vulnerable to ADS/PDS and the OGRE has lots of it. The Slammers would as well between the tribarrels and the calliopes so I don't think that either side would be swamped by artillery/missile strikes. The main combat would likely come down to the Slammers tanks vs the OGRE in a direct fire slug fest. The OGRE would absolutely lose tracks and weapons, but the Slammers would lose tanks just as fast. I suspect that it would mostly come down to which player(s) maneuvered more effectively and had the luckier dice.

Almost enough to make me want to build some Slammers stuff… like I need another project to undertake!

What'd be useful is for me to have a technology level/understanding of the opponents that Ogres usually fight. I haven't got that at the moment (it's only, ummm, 25 years since I played a game of Ogre and I've never read the book's they're based on).

But, in the Slammer's stories, there's a whole lot of, frankly, average modern style AFV's masqurading (usually) as regular army forces and quite a few similar forces one notch up, technology wise (ie, leaving the Slammers out of the equasion, the weapons for every one else go from cannon, via railguns and cone bores and lasers (plus missiles and buzzbombs) and so forth and the vehicles mode of locomotion goes from wheeled and tracked to hover and blower.

So what would be useful (for me anyway) is if I could establish (ie if someone would tell me) what the forces ranged against Ogres usually consist of, then I could (in my mind at any rate) fit them into an analogue in the Slammers rules from amongst the many choices (there are around 50 forces in the rules at different tech levels and with different abilities, training, leadership, weapons, vehicles and so forth) and then I could say, for example, well – those analogues would have a Defensive Value of 'x' in The Crucible, and in comparrison the Slammers have a DV of'y'. And the same with guns (attack value), range and speed.

Would that help?

John T

John T, there is little cannon Ogreverse fiction; even some of the fiction that has been published in an official tome (in the Ogre Book) is frankly declared to be non-canon. To further muddy the waters, the one Ogreverse book that did delve into details of what is required for this conversion (GURPS Ogre) offered up some suspect data that is widely decried by the Ogre community.

Of course, the Slammerverse is not immune: for instance, powergun bolts are said to liberate their energy on the first solid object they hit, up to an including rain. But we have at least two instances--from the first, eponymous, volume--where heavy action occurs during a downpour ("But Loyal to His Own" and "Cultural Conflict").

As Lerchey aptly pointed out, each side will have a horse in the race, but the race is necessarily muddled. But, we do have some known facts as laid out by the game's creator (in the case of SJ) or the writer of the stories (and his gamingly minded proteges):

o Ogreverse combat elements fire almost exclusively nuclear munitions which are countered in turn by light but highly CBRN resistant armor and active/passive point-defense. This last paradigm is what limits the range of elements that in earlier times would have double, treble, or perhaps even more range. On the other hand, almost all fire in considered to be indirect as a matter of course and even vehicles that have disabled crew can fight themselves without assistance.

o Slammerverse combat elements (particularly the Slammers themselves) focus on active point defense when not relying on their iridium-based armor but can conduct direct fire engagements quite literally as far as the eye can see.

Unless we can get numbers from the Ogreverse on which all parties agree (unlike the hard numbers we get from the Slammerverse thanks in large part to the two Johns) it likely will not be solved equitably. I am a fan of both these universes--equally, since one is a gaming medium and the other, until relatively recently even considering the Mayfair game--but see no overarching concern against considering the Slammerverse combat elements to be their closest Ogerverse analogues, though with perhaps very speedy Heavy Tanks.

If the "nuclear damper" concept from "The Butcher's Bill" and "The Interrogation Team" holds true and works against Ogreverse munitions, one would imagine that the initial stages of the game would be akin to the action portrayed in The Warrior with the side at a disadvantage sniping out the elements that are putting them in that predicament.

Thus, the opening stages of the game would see the Ogre seeking to draw out an destroy the NucDamp/EW vehicle while the Slammers try to snipe out critical spots on the Ogre (which their pin-point precision could no doubt acomplish vicvwe the "spray and pray" Ogre conscripts…)

Which brings me (thankfully) to my last point: the Slammers' troopers are renowned as the hardest, best trained and most effective fighting force in their milieu. In the Ogreverse, a trooper who has served in a dozen engfagements is remarkable. Skill and technology count for a lot, but Drake wasn't peddling vaccuum when he emphasized experience, esprit de corps, and ruthlessness as often deciding factors.

Failure, you made some very good points.

One exception is your last few statements about training and accuracy. I absolutely agree that the Slammers troops are "the best in the galaxy" within their verse. But if you factor the Bolo series in a little more heavily, I think that OGRE becomes much less of a "spray and pray" militia like unit. Again, depends on what pseudo canon you want to follow, and how close to either the OGRE or Bolo side of he fence. :)

F16 – I would certainly agree that Drake's Slammers material is – in places – inconsistent*. One of the fun elements of being involved with the rules was putting rationale behind some of the variations in the narative (30 tonne/50 tonne combat cars; 8 fans/12 fans; solid splinter shields/mesh splinter shields etc etc etc).

In a gaming environment all one can do is try and rationalise this as best as possible (for example, bearing in mind the very valid point you made about firing in the rain, using Powerguns in The Crucible, all Soft Cover is treated as Hard Cover [ie bushes will defend you as well as a concrete wall]. If I were writing a scenario taking place in the rain, everyone being fired at by Powergauns would be automatically in soft cover or – in a downpoor – hard cover [but in a downpoor I'd rate lasers as firing in automatic soft cover as well!]).

But – back on topic – I suppose ultimately what I was trying to do was get a feel for the size and performance of various marks of Ogre to Stat them for use in The Crucible and the obvious way (to me at least) would be to get a feel for how the Ogre's do against their natural opponents and – if I can find a parallel for them in the Slammer's rules – then I could work out some stats for Ogres.

That was my plan, anyway!

John T

* as with any stories written as stories (and 30 years apart)

John T,

OGREs in the Steve Jackson game only have a few unique components, differing in how many of each they have.

The "crunchies" only have raw stats, with weapons and such being less defined.

This may take me a while to type, but here are some stats:

Unit ATT RNG DEF MV PTs
L-GEV 1 2 1 4-3 0.5 GEVs get a second move
GEV 2 2 2 4-3 1 after they've fired
GEV-PC 1 2 2 3-2 0.5
Hover Truck – – 1 3-2 -
Lt Tank 2 2 2 3 0.5
Msl Tank 3 4 2 2 1
Hvy Tank 4 2 3 3 1
SHvy Tank 6* 3 4 3 2 May split fire (3/3)
Howitzer 6 8 1 0 2
Mob Howitzer 6 6 2 1 2
Msl Crawler SPECIAL 2 1 3 Carries a Cruise Missile
Crawler only – – 2 2 -
Truck – – 0 4 -
Infantry 1-3 1 1-3 2 – Infantry are 1A-1D but
can stack up to 3.

OGRE weapons
Name ATT RNG DEF
Main Battery 4 3 4
Sec Battery 3 2 3
Missile 6 5 3
Msl Rack – – 4 Fires Msls stored internally
AP 1 1 1 Only vs Inf and DEF 0 CPs

OGRES

Name MBs SBs APs MSL MSL-R Load MV Treads Cost
Mk I 1 – 4 – – – 3 15 5
Mk II 1 2 6 – – – 3 30 9
Mk III 1 4 8 2 – – 3 45 17
Mk III-B 2 4 8 4 – – 3 45 17
Fencer – 4 8 – 4 20 3 45 24
Mk IV 1 2 8 – 3 15 4 60 25
Mk V 2 6 12 6 – – 3 60 25
Mk VI 3 6 16 – 2 20 3 75 35

OGREs lose movement as treads are destroyed. Divide the treads by the base move value to see how many need to be destroyed to lose a move point. E.g., the Mk V loses 1 MV for every 20 treads lost.

Combat is resolved via an odds table and a D6 roll.

I'm not going to type the table in, but hopefully this will give you some idea of values and balance.

Thanks Lerchy – Just to clarify:

A Tank costs 1pt and a SH tank two points (both ar tracked). Assume the latter at least is using a beam weapon (as in splitting fire at half effectiveness)

A Hover 'tank' costs a point, is not as well armoured or as heavy hitting as a regular tank but gets to move twice.

Am I close with my quick assumptions?

If so, let me think about this. If not, correect me and I'll still put my thinking cap on!

Under Crucible rules an Ogre of any sort would have a bespoke damage chart, obviously, with the ability to absorb and acrue damage that would effect weapons systems and speed. Additional question. Do Orge main weapons have a defensive ability against incomoing attacks? And – if they do – does that impinge on their ability to fire agressively?

John T

JohnT,

I'll try and help Lerchey a bit.

Aye – Heavy and Super Heavy Tanks are tracked. Super Heavy doesn't use beam weapons (I believe the only beam weapons are in the massive fixed defences known as Laser Towers) but the SHVY has a twin-heavy-gun turret where you can make two separate 3 pt attacks or combine for a single 6 pt attack.

The 'Hover' Tank – or GEV – can probably be best described as a hit-and-run light armour asset. Same weapon as a Light Tank with same range, but sacrificing armour for more speed and agility.

And as for the Ogre main weapons – aye, you can attempt to attack the Beast and defeat the individual weapon systems, as the main armament, the secondaries, any missile launchers and even the AP weapons have their own defence factor. Of course, you choose to do this, you're not taking out the treads to slow the Beast down.

So, very rough example of the top of my head. I have two Heavy Tanks and I'm in range of shooting at an Ogre. I could choose from the following:

* To fire each Heavy Tank at the treads, so each Heavy Tank attack is rolled at the 1:1 column on the CRT, and if I'm successful, I destroy a number of treads equal to the attack factor (in this case, 4).

* I can target a wepaon system on the Ogre instead, in this case, both weapons at the Ogre's Main Armament, that has a Defence of 4, means using both Heavy Tanks I would get to roll on the 2:1 column of the CRT.

* Or, I could choose 1 Heavy Tank to do a 1:1 attack on the Main Armament, and the other Heavy Tank to do a 1:1 on a Secondary Gun or the Missile Rack.

* Finally, a Heavy Tank could fire at an AP weapon mount, at a 4:1 attack, in order to reduce the Ogre's AP defences.

The main thing is that you state what you're attacking with, and then what particular thing you plan to attack on the Ogre, and thereby announce the odds column being used on the CRT before you roll the D6.

Lots of resources here: sjgames.com/ogre including the two page "Lite" rules under the Resources tab.

Very much enjoying this discussion, gentlemen.

I think it is Lerchey that said the Ogre could be fitted with different weaponry. So it could be fitted with powerguns, and tri-barrels. Similarly, the grav tanks may not have powerguns but instead some sort of nuke firing gun. Instead of facing the Slammers, the Ogre might be facing "Rogers Roughnecks", for example.

The Ogre's armour could be a laminate that includes layers of iridium, and in that way it could carry more armour than a big Slammer's tank.

And, for a little more sauce, the Ogre could be a Slammer's unit. Instead of landing a force on a planet or continent, they could just drop off some Ogre's for the duration of the contract. I'm sure the Slammers would use drones, and an Ogre is a pretty big drone.

Sorry, "grav tanks" = "blower"

Guess where my mind's at!

Lerchey, I agree that the Ogreverse soldiery are--by and large--professionals in their trade but also feel that the experience borne by the Slammers should be given its due.

John T, not trying to dimionish Drakes work in any way shape or form. But fair is fair, and dichotomy does not extend towards Ogre alone.

Speaking purely from a gaming stand-point, it might best be assumed that each side has weaponry capable of damaging the other. Therefore, if using Ogre rules I would submit the following relationships:

Ogre---------Slammers

Heavy Tank---M2 Blower Tank w/ 3/2 Move
GEV----------M9 Combat Car
Hover Truck--Hover Truck
Militia------Infantry w/ Ogre Infantry movement capabilities

Due to Ogre's strict balancing regimen, the Heavy Tank alone with a 3/2 move will cause the Ogre fits. The rationale behind the infantry is that no matter how well-trained they are, they are fitted with small arms-only on unarmored skimmer platforms (giving them the move bonus over Ogre militia) and are totally unsuited to face nuclear attacks. Optionally, quadruple all ranges (which is understating the reality portrayed in the stories) though then the Ogre will need some help…

Secondary option: give the Slammers a +1 on their rolls against the CRT; that will give them quite and edge regardless of what else is changed!

Using Crucible rules, I would submit:

MOVEMENT
--All tracked front line tanks and Ogre/cybertanks are Fast Tracked (MSL Tanks being Slow Tracked), while GEVs are Very Fast Light Hover; PA infantry should have movement of Medium Tracked while Militia should be the standard Infantry/15cm rate. Additionally, Ogres/cybertanks and SHVY Tanks ignore Heavy Vegetation and Rocks/Rubble.

FIREPOWER
--All the all Light/Heavy/Superheavy tanks and GEVs carry (as a base-line) the equivalent of a "2-3cm Automatic Cannon" and "Strip Mine" defensive systems (not effective agaisnt infantry unless otherwise noted) to cover secondary weapon systems and defensive measures.
--Heavy and Superheavy tanks be fitted with "15-20cm Artillery" <SHVY will get two total Strip Charge systems to reflect the advanced AP systems>.
--Missile Tanks with 4-tube "Heavy Mortar/MLRS"
--GEVs and Light Tanks with "5-10cm Artillery"
--Howitzers with "25cm Powerguns" featuring indirect fire capabilities.
--Infantry with Terran Authority Stats (see TRAINING below)
--Ogre/Cybertanks should field a "25cm Powergun" that can fire every turn for each Main Battery (no typo, there), a "Heavy 25cm Laser" for each Secondary Battery, a double-damage "15cm Powergun" for each Missile present, and a Strip Charge system for each AP system.

PROTECTION
--Ogre Defense 1…F 9, S 6, R 5, T, 5
--Ogre Defense 2…F 10, S 7, R 6, T, 6
--Ogre Defense 3…F 11, S 8, R 7, T, 7
--Ogre Defense 4…F 12, S 9, R 8, T, 8
--Ogre/Cybertank Treads…7

TRAINING
--All Ogreverse troops should be no more than Veterans, though Trained could be permissable (particularly for Militia or relatively green troops). The actual Ogre/cybertanks should be at least Veterans if not Elite and should get one Elite Skill for each Mark number they possess past 1 (i.e. a Mark V would get four skills). They are, after all, like every trooper's nightmare on treads…

I'm glad that the stats were helpful. And I'm enjoying this discussion as well.

While not wanting to type in the entire game rules (and I won't!) I think that some things that I left out from just basic stats might provide some additional flavor. :)

Vehicles move types:
Lt. Tank, Heavy Tank, Missile Tank, Missile Crawler, Mobile Howitzer are all tracked.
All GEVs are air cushion vehicles, and unlike Blowers, they can cross water, and in fact can treat it as a road.
OGREs are also tracked. :)
Trucks are presumably wheeled.

Different move types treat terrain a bit differently. OGREs mostly ignore passable terrain. And they can move slowly under water along rivers and such.

GEVs are not good in rough/dense terrain – cities, forests, etc., but kick ass on open ground or water. And they get their secondary move, which lets them move in, shoot, and then hopefully skirt away to make it harder to kill them all on the OGREs move.

Tracks are good in most terrain, but can't cross water and can get stuck in bogs/swamps.

Oh, and looking at the post just above, the normal OGRE missiles are one-shot deals. You use 'em or lose 'em, and unless you have a Missile Rack with internal loads, they're marked off as gone after they've been fired. The OGRE player has to balance when to use the missiles. Very early and maybe "waste" them on weak targets, or hold on to them an hope that the crunchies don't destroy them before they can be used.

OGREs also have a "final option". If it is desperate enough, and can't complete its mission, there are rules to trigger a self-detonation of its nuclear core. BOOM!

Maybe sometimes its not such a good idea to batter the OGRE and be too close to it…

:)

OGRE (unless playing OGRE Miniatures) is played on a hex map. Movement and range are in hexes. Each hex (IIRC) is several km in scale.

In OGRE, the OGRE can ram enemy units and loses some treads when doing so. I don't recall the actual values, but running over a light tank does less tread damage than running over a heavy tank. The "runned over" are road kill – destroyed.

Infantry double their combat values in overrun conditions. Eg., if they enter the same space as an enemy or visa versa, they are nastier. This is presumable due to buzz bombs, better ability to utilize terrain, and general "close assault is nasty" bonuses. In the later GEV rules when OGRES enter an occupied hex, they double some values as well, instead of just crushing things. Been a while, so I might not have the details perfectly correct.

About killing OGREs.
One of the beauties of the OGRE game was that the defender (the OGRE is always the attacker, going after a crunchy-chewy command post!) has some hard decisions to make. The OGRE *cannot be destroyed*. Each element of the OGRE is attacked as a separate component/target. You can shoot at the treads, hopefully reducing the available total to slow it down or even stop it. You can shoot at the main batterys hoping for a kill that will deny the OGRE a heavy weapon, etc. The tactical choices are between letting the OGRE keep on rolling and trying to strip it of its teeth, or to continue to take damage from its weapons array and try to stop it in its (ahem) tracks to keep it away from the CP.

Attack values can be combined in the game as well. Let's say I have a Hvy Tank and a Lt Tank within range of an OGRE. I could combine the attack values (4+2) to make a 6:whatever DEF the target has attack. That has a pretty good chance of taking down a main battery for example. Alternately, I can fire the Hvy Tank at one component, maybe a secondary battery, and the light against a tread unit or maybe an AP cluster. As long as each attack roll is announced, it's totally up to the player as to how the points are allocated with the restriction that a single unit (other than the super heavy) cannot split their points. So a heavy tank always commits 4 attack points to a target and cannot split 2/2 or 3/1.

John T, not trying to dimionish Drakes work in any way shape or form. But fair is fair, and dichotomy does not extend towards Ogre alone.

No – sorry if I gave the impression that I thought you were: not at all. Dave's writing is quite consistent for a work of fiction but it does have inconsistencies in it. I was – and am – agreeing with you on that F16

Back to the case in point, I haven't enough experience to generate Slammer's troops in a GEV/Ogre environment: as I said earlier, playing the game twice 25 years ago makes me a hopeless case. Sure I can make guesses but what F16 came up with would probably work: I might have said that the Slammer's (tank) Blowers are Super Heavy tanks but with the speed of regular GEV vehicles but that shows up my ignorance of the Ogre/GEV rules so I should probably bite my tongue.

I think my only contribution to this is to look at how to model an Ogre using The Crucible rules. An Ogre as a single detachment all of it's own, seems a good idea, with individual components of the vehicle targetable in the same way that individual TUs of vehicles or infantry would be targetable when firing using the standard rules.

Different locations would then be more or less vulnerable (ie have different defensive values), have a different set of damage allocation and, I guess, the whole thing would have a variable speed, some of which could be actual speed and some of which could be reflected in how many Leadership Points it takes to run the damn thing (as per standard Crucible rules).

On that last point – and again please excuse my ignorance – the Ogres: they're not crewed, are they? Aren't they a huge robot, effectively, or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

Either way there would have to be a component of allocating leadership (LPs) within the rules to get it to do stuff (either the machine making lots of calculations about where to go and who to shoot at or a chap in charge shouting at people to do likewise )

John T

*Thanks to the quotes, I am finding some absolutely reprehensible spelling in my last two posts. My apologies!*

JT, no problems. The Ogres themselves are certainly not crewed (and are not even 'cybertanks' in common parlance
because they are completely mechanical with no mushy bits like a human brain). They are said to be as smart as one person, but what a person that is, and that was before they evolved into sentience.

Thus, an Ogre itself should certainly be its own entity. However, each of its individual components should be independently targetable. You can get the defensive values for Ogre systems from Lerchey's post and cross-reference with my equivalency in my post. I am not saying my suggestions are in any sense 'right', but it easier to talk about specific numbers on an Internet forum than not.

For leadership equivalencies, Ogre Miniatures comes to the rescue: Ogres Mark I-II are ranked as captains, Mark III as majors, Marks IV-V as colonels and specialist Ogres rated as the situation warrants. Therefore, that would give a designated Ogre certain LPs (i.e. an Ogre Mark III would get 10 LPs for being nominally an "Elite Major").

You suggestion about Slammers M2s being Ogreverse SHVYs with GEV move would certainly fit the bill of the blower-tanks being nigh-unstoppable killing machines. It is not a bad suggestion, but if taken, it would mean the Ogre would lose and lose hard. On the other hand, if you made a Slammers M2 worth *four* Ogre armor units (i.e. a Heavy or Missile Tank; a GEV; two Light Tanks/GEVs; or 'half-a-Superheavy) you might have a game on you hands.

Per the famous original Ogre scenario, that would pit an Ogre Mark III against three M2 tanks (or two plus a half-dozen combat cars) and some infantry support. Depending on how each side positions their force(s) that means the Ogre has to get reasonably lucky with its sole two missiles and then must find a way to endure the remaining tank as it munches through the infantry on its way to the Command Post.

Of course, this scenario obviates the NukeDamper concept. On the other hand--if you take GURPS Ogre into account--the rail-guns on Ogerverse combat elements are dual purpose and can fire APFSDSDU rounds in a addition to the "Saturation Nuclear Cluster" munitions others have alluded to. If so, each Ogre elements should be accorded large rail guns (topping out for the big tanks and on the light-to-mid-scale for things like GEVs).

To add further fuel to the fire, Ogre Miniatures let fly with 'archaic armor' which is basically retrofitted modern AFVs sporting BPC armor and railguns. In terms of comparison:

--These elements lacked the automatic indirect fire capability that was seen to draw heavily on the SATNUC munition (which was like a redonkulous version of the XM25's airburst grenade or, more appropriately, the Bofors 3P ammo).
--They had the same (direct fire) range as comparable units (~2 miles).
--An MBT (literally stated or alluded to be an old M1, Leo or Chally II, or T-80) had protection and firepower equivalent to a Ogre GEV.
--An APC/IFV (M2 Bradley or BMP as examples) had the protection and firepower of an Ogre Light GEV (half that of a GEV).
--Both types moved at a rate commensurate with an Ogre Missle Tank (which is 2/3rds that of a front-line tank).

This, more than anything, JT, should allow a direct conversion to The Crucible as I am sure that you already have--on an old hardrive no doubt--the stats for much of Janes Armour and Artillery converted over for use in Hammer's drive against a pre-Spaceflight Terra!

isn't a bolo an Ogre anyway? I though it was just steve jackson not wanting to licence bolo.

Am I the only grayhair here who remembers the 1st edition of Ogre with the black and red ink cover art? The acknowledgments mentioned Laumer's BOLO as one source of inspiration IIRC (and in fact it was this mention that sent me back to the public library seeking out those very stories!).

Given every BOLO tale I've ever read (and I don't think I've missed any!), the Ogre is a *very* primitive version of the mid- to later mark BOLOs! Hellbores for example are designed to engage orbiting starships(!!!), while the secondary batteries of Infinite Repeaters are essentially able to scythe down conventional targets with unsettling ease. I'd say that the Ogre wants to be a BOLO when it grows up…

Very interesting discussion!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I'm packing to go away for a couple of weeks now so I probably will have to do my thinking on the move (won't have internet access where/how I'm going [at least not in any meaningful sense!]).

My final comment for a while is that I think that someone moderately familiar with both rule sets should do some heavy thinking along the lines that have been laid out.

I will certainly put some thought into creating some rules for 'unstopable killing machines' to use in the Crucible and try to make them relatively modular so that guys can build as big an Ogre as they want (within reason, I guess!).

John T

Very interesting intel, guys ! And it really depends on what rules are used and weapons stats … But once that is figured out, I think it would be an interesting bout … a Slammer TF vs. an OGRE … my $$$ is on the Slammers, but they could take heavy losses in the end …

Perhaps a good middle ground is a generic set of rules that can fit both universes in it, such as Future War Commander.