"Wargaming, Elitism, Snobbery, and the Future?" Topic

Continue to ask for help, ask lots of questions, do your own research, etc. One of the best ways to obtain assistance is to join a local wargaming club and pick the brains of others.

Thank the people that provide you with assistance, and ignore the condescending individuals that don't, or that criticize you.

Not everyone has the same budget to allot to wargaming, or to their favorite hobby. If your local library is anything like mine, it may be less than worthless. I used to live on the East coast, and they had excellent libraries, with a wide selection of research books. Unfortunately, from a library standpoint, I now live in California where most of the community libraries suck. Oh sure, some of the college libraries are quite good, and the weather is nice, but I hate to have to drive an hour each way to view the references I need. That's why I tend to buy most of the ones I am interested in.

Buy plastics if you have to, until you can afford to buy better miniatures.

Remember, it is just a hobby, and a past-time for most people. Few of us are able to make a living at it, so just have a good time.

Finally, I think you have the right idea on the "feel" of the games. A proper wargame should have rules that reflect the strategies and tactics of the times, and should reward those that use the correct tactics. If not, they aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Gentlemen!

Whom of you read the original thread and the posting of Static Tyrant?

He just asked for available online 'information (TOE, uniform/painting guides, equipment guides etc)' and not some boring details like under what flag and insignia fought the 'Harlem Hellfighters'.
What is wrong with that?

He wanted it for free?
Oh,my God,he probably buys winter terrain from the after Christmas discount bin at the dollar store!:-)

I do a wide range of gaming with toy soldiers and wargaming as somebody suggested to differentiate.And one strong inspiration for a new gaming period for me are colorful or interesting looking uniforms,weapons and armor.So if somebody want to interest me,he just have to show me some pictures.And I'm sure a lot of people behave like that.
Even a lot of buisnesses think that works,they show me many fancy toys.

And what is the answers to such a simple question from Static Tyrant?
To sum it up he probably is a 'dilitant' [I know its wrighten dilletant,sarcasm you know]lazy scrounger thats habit is indicative for the coming doom.

And all of this is one of the reasons why I play video games. 1) I don't have to listen to people whine about the wrong color uniforms, 2) it takes less effort to setup and play, 3) I don't have to worry about playing with people I don't like, because quite frankly, I don't like "hanging" around most miniature gamers, 4) I don't have to listen to stupid debates over "period", uniforms, and "what-this-general-would-do" when all I'm trying to do is play a game and have fun.

Even in video gaming I get the occasional snob. Most of the time it's PC gamers who think they are all high and mighty over console gamers.

Even though miniature gaming is a hobby, when did the people of the hobby forget that it's about playing games and having fun? Snobbish-higher-than-thou gamers of any type just make me sick and I have no time for them.

OK - I've just been skimming for the last couple of miles, but has anyone mentioned that research can be free? Many libraries carry Osprey books, many that don't carry them will get them if you ask (locally, it's a 3"x5" suggestion card), and just about EVERY library carries history books.

And checking them out won't cost you a dime - just the time it takes to read them.

Okay, Okay, Okay - did I mention I was skimming a little?

Mako13 - you've already made my points...

It is interesting that "snob" in the US has become defined as anyone that has studied, researched, and reflected upon a subject. We now live in a country where skilled musicians and their fans are Classical music snobs, while people who shout to a rythym are stars. Actually studying foreign affairs and knowing the history of a region and its conflicts is putting on airs as far as the "football fan" psychology of the majority is concerned. We won't even touch on the Arts, science, wine, mathematics, US history, Economics, or a myriad of other subjects where knowledge,study, and some thought are required-instead of just stating how we "Feel" about a subject.

That an historical wargamer should be interested in, and willing to study the FACTS about a period or conflict, is not such a draconian requirement! If you want to be a historical gamer, but can't read, are too poor to buy books(but not figures!), or are bored by history-then play FANTASY. It is specifically designed for large groups of pre-adolescent, comic book readers, who enjoy duplicating lists of troops from rigidly structured rules. Have fun!

IF you have done some basic reading and research, then it is a rare historical gamer that won't discuss the inticacies of tactics, uniforms, or generalship of a period.

But if your entire observation is that those guys in the furry hats with the great blue and red jackets look cool, then don't be surprised if that "Snobbish Elitist" sees you as on immature, adolescent, uninteresting, jerk. Not a neophyte; not a "newbie," since that requires an investment of a pinch of time and some interest.

Quite frankly, Historical gaming has more invested in keeping History central to the hobby, and requiring a gamer to research his interests ON HIS OWN, than it does in adding another warm body to the wargame table.

Those that say we must do ANYTHING to get new gamers, or to convert fantasy gamers to Historical wargaming, are very wrong. The result of that "toleration" could very well be a growing absorption of Historical Wargaming by the mass of fantasy gaming. Rather, we should stress the differences and encourage only those gamers that truly show an interest, and a willingness to do a little "homework."

In a way, true newbies must "Earn" their respect in the hobby and the attention of those that have done the work. Not much different than any other social relationships, eh?

As for Static Tyrant-I wish him luck if he goes to his local public library and begins exploring the other FUN part of Historical gaming.

BJ

Well said, BJ (and John, Helmet and all the others of similar mindset)!

Piquetone, I even research my GASLIGHT figures. My Canadians are as historically accurate as possible. So there!

Luckily, you can get away with painting WWI as smeared with mud, so that's a tad easier.

Wow! You even stick an asterisk in the middle of a word, and it gets bleeped. I'm impressed! No pulling any fast ones on Bill, no sir. 8^)

"It is interesting that "snob" in the US has become defined as anyone that has studied, researched, and reflected upon a subject."

Hear, hear.

I strive to be as accurate as possible with my painting, unit organization, etc. and applaud others that do the same.

I just think people should be willing to share, and to point people to references that will assist them in the researching endeavors. Pointing people to some decent references, and/or answering some simple questions helps greatly.

Then, the person inquiring can choose to do the work, or not.

That will help our community grow, and to strengthen the hobby.

"It is interesting that "snob" in the US has become defined as anyone that has studied, researched, and reflected upon a subject."

Garbage. I get criticized because I have gold buttons instead of brass and the pompoms are white instead of the appropriate company color. This is elitist stupidity. I don't want to do that much research, I am not a historian. I do want to know which regiment/unit was where on the field so I can get an accurate OB for a scenario of who was where, but when you get down to brass, bronze or gold color paint for buttons, that level is what I call an assinine level of detail for a game.

In my view, if I get the correct units, in the correct numbers, flags and uniforms, I am doing just fine. I don't need to know exactly how many men were at Borodino, but I get close and I am happy. On a battle of that scale, who is going to miss a few hundred here or there when the battle was in the thousands??

I agree a bit of research is required, usually an opsprey or some google searches, but I don't need to read half a dozen accounts on one battle just so I can play a scenario based on that battle.

Just my thoughts.

From Picquetone:

"...don't be surprised if that "Snobbish Elitist" sees you as on immature, adolescent, uninteresting, jerk."

Well, good to see some perspective on the issue. Five insulting terms in serial would have bordered on the excessive.

Best,
Ed M

We shouldn't be surprised to see this thread deteriorate. The title itself is a textbook Trollish 101 exercise. The title assumes facts not in evidence, and has a chip on the shoulder attitude.

You CANNOT serve up a title like that, with the attitudes expressed, and NOT see it volleyed back in kind. Frankly, I see our side ahead on points. Far ahead.

And, the answer to the so-far unasked question "But don't you feel a responsibility to build the hobby by bringing in more and younger gamers?" is "no". My responsibility to the hobby is to enjoy it, and catalogue my figures accurately so my Heir can sell off my estate for the best price. It is NOT to drag someone kicking and screaming into historicals who cannot be bothered to pick up a book.

Static Tyrant,

It's really very simple.

First, you must study the conflict. Sell your home, car, first born, whatever you might have, and buy all of those 3000 page concise histories about the conflict. Then memorize them. You must also memorize the names of all of the soldiers involved in the conflict

Next, you must chase down historical topographic maps, and faithfully reproduce the battlefields in the scale of your choosing. This will require dedicated study of the weather patterns in the areas of conflict, and the ability to identify the genera and species of all the flora and fauna in the region such that they can be accurately represented on the table top.

Then you study every aspect of the cultures involved, learn the native languages, read all existing documents in those languages and embrace the religions of the combatants.

Next, you will build a living history museum duplicating the life of the combatants and live there for a minimum of five years. This will help you better understand the people represented on your game table.

The last step before gaming involves researching the troops and equipment, sculpting your own masters, casting and painting the figures, and writing your own set of rules (which must have at least 1100 pages and 96 different actions in each turn.

Only after doing these things, will you be worthy of the title of "historical gamer"; only then will you be ready to test the waters and see if this is a period that you really want to get into.

Sorry that I can't help you beyond this, as WW1 isn't one of the periods that I game.

Garness what you are saying is that you don't care about being correct, just being almost correct is good enough. I can't. Keep pushing around your pseudo-regiments around and I will continue being a snob, I enjoy it.

Tom

"That an historical wargamer should be interested in, and willing to study the FACTS about a period or conflict, is not such a draconian requirement!"

That is funny. As historian in exercise of my profession I can say that 'FACTS' are a matter of continuous discussion between historians. Or not. No over facts, actually, but what those FACTS mean. We know that in Spain in 1809-1812 there were something we called 'guerrillas' but we can't agree about what they did or what their impact in the war was. We can agree about who won Waterloo, but not about how it was won (or lose). In certain periods we are not able to agree even about who was present or who was not in certain battle or siege (was Du Guesclin in Toledo siege in 1369 or he came just before Montiel? Who formed the battle of Don Tello in Najera?)And not only in the past but today: the invasion of Iraq is a fact, but we are not able to agree about what are the reasons that prompted it.

Sorry if I don't buy the anal-retentive fixation with facts that some people have.

"Garness what you are saying is that you don't care about being correct, just being almost correct is good enough. I can't. Keep pushing around your pseudo-regiments around and I will continue being a snob, I enjoy it."

you understand me exactly, I want my nappy Russians wearing dark green jackets, I am not overly concerned that it is the exact correct shade of green. I want my WW2 germans wearing Feldgrau, but I do not wish to enter a debate as to whether it is the exact correct shade of feldgrau or whther this shade was correct in Poland or France. If my SS do not have the words on the sleeve and have scribble instead, that works for me. I want my romans to sheilds to have thunderbolts instead of laurels, for the legionaires anyway. I don't much care for getting the exact detail correct, it takes far to much time for, IMHO, too little of a difference. I view it like a game of horse-shoes, close works, some will be correct, some may be a bit off, but when I look at an army of Romans, I know they are romans and I think that is suffiecient.

But you can be a snob if you like, I won't stop ya, although one day you may have to play in a game I run somewhere or other in the future with nearly correct little toy figures. Oh the humanity!! :)

I'm with Gar. I guess I'll stick to my SF "toys" painted in any color I want and leave professional hobbyists alone, LOL! I actually do anyway and I enjoy that!

Basileus66. So, is your solution to throw out any and all facts on the grounds that we are incapable of knowing them? Are all the names you mentioned in fact fantasy figures with a pseudo historical pedigree?

And, please. I truly despise the phrase "anal-retentive fixation". It was a stupid theory within its own pseudo-science, it's even dumber outside of it.

((Time out! The first person to use the word "Fascist" automatically loses the argument for his side. This doesn;t count. Time in.))

Static Tyrant,

Have to add my .02 in (probably all it's worth, but oh well..;-)

About three years ago, I was still a die-hard Sci-Fi & Fantasy gamer. However I really wanted to make the jump into historicals, so I choose WWII, and 15mm.

I started off a bit in the dark (had some basic knowledge of the subject), and asked a ton of what I hope were not so stupid questions on various forums, Received a lot of assistance early on when I needed it, regarding manufacturer recommendations, books, etc. My quest searching for the perfect "Dunkelgelb" is epic in our local group ;-)

Flash three years forward, I now have thousands invested in the period, including a large number of accurately painted armies, a few hundred books, tons of nicely painted terrain, etc., And a very good knowledge on the subject, especially my chosen passion, the Eastern Front, and all the Axis minors that go with it.

WWII has taken over my life in a big way, as I am constantly reading a new book on the subject, and fretting over details like Hungarian three-tone vehicle camo ;-) It’s now the constant desire to learn even the most obscure details that feeds my WWII passion, and has sparked strong interests in other periods, as I am just starting out in WWI/RCW, and Franco-Prussian war will be soon to follow. Although I no longer own any Sci-Fi & Fantasy, I will certainly play in a game on occasion, I spent most of my gaming years into D&D, Battletech, Call of Cthulhu, etc, that there will always remain a small interest.

The way I see it is this, when you decide to take on a historical period, I believe you should do try your best to get it right, and that inevitably means at least minimal research and picking up a few Osprey books as a start.

I have no problems helping people out in the hobby, as everyone needs to start somewhere, but that help should consist of also pointing people in the direction of books, etc, that will aid them in starting out.

By not doing so, I believe that you not only dishonor the period, but the many others that have taken their time to research the period, paint their armies as accurately as possible, etc.

Let's say I attend a game at a con, late war Germans-Soviets, and someone shows up with their late war Germans, you take a look at their minis, and you have a ton of late war German armor painted Panzer Grey, now that would bother me to a very large degree, as obviously this person either did not take the time to research the subject, or simply did not care.

Now if that makes me a snob, then so be it. By extension that would make every serious historical gamer a snob. If that truly is the case, then I will happily accept the title.

I look at this hobby as a triumvirate, consisting of Research-Painting-Playing, if someone does not have the interest to do the first, then I would heartily recommend Sci-Fi or Fantasy as an alternative, and I don’t mean that as a slight, just a well intentioned suggestion.

Paul

"So, is your solution to throw out any and all facts on the grounds that we are incapable of knowing them? Are all the names you mentioned in fact fantasy figures with a pseudo historical pedigree?"

No, that is not my solution. But I wouldn't dare to trash anyone because the facts in which he build his army are no the same facts that I have used to build mine. And, yes, Bertrand is very 'fantastic' if you use Culvelier as your only source and more down-to-Earth if you consult the Cronica of Lopez de Ayala.

But 'fact' is just a myth. Sometimes we are near secure about the presence of certain regiment in certain battle (witnesses, payrolls, official histories...) We know also that the uniform had certain particular facings, collars and cuffs colours. May be we know that the battle was fought in winter, and we know that oficially in winter that particular regiment should wear grey trousers. So I paint my regiment in the official data I have... But then I found another source, and it speaks about some soldiers wearing white trousers and bicornes, not grey ones and shakos. May be they didn't the change on time? Are my second source wrong? So I decide to left my unit painted as it was... and the guy in front of me, who only saw the source of white trousers and bicornes, cries: "Hey! YOU are WRONG! That unit can't be fielded as they didn't wear grey trousers and shakos! I readed it!"

Right now I am writing my PhD, and so I expect that the professor who is directing me would point any inconsistence in my research before I present it to the board. But I would be very annoyed if a fellow gamer spoils my fun in a game arguing about the right facings of my regiments.

"And, please. I truly despise the phrase "anal-retentive fixation". It was a stupid theory within its own pseudo-science, it's even dumber outside of it."

Agree. But it is useful to describe the reactions of some people I met. That is why I used it. Apologies if you felt offended.

I don't have time to read through almost 2 pages of posts, so hopefully won't repeat too much what has been said.

Some people would rather take time to tell you what you should be doing (according to them), though they could have taken the same amount of time and just answered your question in the first place.

Some people have too much time on their hands and assume everyone else apparently does as well. For the vast majority of us that have a life, we don't have time to go and research every little detail on every little thing, especially when you're just trying to find out whether you really want to get into the period or not.

Most people are helpful on this site, so I wouldn't let one persons response discourage you from either TMP or the period you're considering.

"Let's say I attend a game at a con, late war Germans-Soviets, and someone shows up with their late war Germans, you take a look at their minis, and you have a ton of late war German armor painted Panzer Grey, now that would bother me to a very large degree, as obviously this person either did not take the time to research the subject, or simply did not care."

Or, may be, he has not the money to spent in a late war German army and then he decides to use his early war. Or may be, he had not the time to finish his late war and then borrowed the army of a friend who had Early war. Or, may be, he is begginer and his only sources shows tanks in panzer grey.

As a non wargamer I find the opposite ends of the spectrum truly amazing. I go to Historicon every year and meet the nicest friendliest people on the face of the planet. You stop by a game to look and people are falling all over themselves to explain things to you and answer any questions you may have.
On the other hand you have this Page (Funny, it doesn't say the WARGAMERS page, it's called The Miniatures Page).
People ask simple questions for help and are lambasted for not doing the proper research. How petty a bunch you are, especially you John. I am quite sure that you can die happy knowing that you have found the ONE site that has the proper Hesse uniforms. I notice you didn't provide a link. My God! What would happen if others found out about it. Oh! the humanity.
You know, on every other miniatures group or site I belong to, you ask a question and within an hour or so you get several helpful replies. Why, John, does it pain you so to help someone with the right colors for facings or coats or leggings? So what if they don't have the time or the inclination to get as heavily involved as you. If you don't wish to be helpful then don't, but who are you to lecture them or disparage their interest. If you don't wish to be of assistance then shut up. His post did not require a reply from you or anyone else of your ilk. The man asked for help not a lecture. And John, if you don't like it you can always take your ball and go home..............BILL

Basileus,

A lot of odd speculative "what-ifs", and off the mark. I stated "Someone shows up with their late war Germans painted Panzer Grey"

ie: Someone purchased a bunch of PZIVH's, 234 AC's, King Tigers, Panthers, etc. and just painted them Panzer Grey. Now any minimal amount of research, even through google, will easily guide someone not to make this sort of mistake, but unfortunately I have seen armies online like this, and IMHO, I can't think of any legitimate excuse why this would occur, except for a complete disinterest in research (or watching too many 1960's & '70's WWII movies ;-)

Paul

Gotta agree with Basileus on this one. Paul, you'd be right on for Panthers, Tigers, and the others you mentioned. But halftracks, trucks, and things that do double duty in other periods might legitimately be different.

If my defense budget isn't big enough, I might well need to use early war stuff to fill the gaps, at least temporarily. I think Basileus' point, and mine, is that there are more than just two reasons for not painting them correctly. Other than that, I agree with your sentiment.

Jizbrand has resumed very well my feelings.

Thanks.

In the original thread, Dirty Dog Sparky and Jakar Nilson answered westphalia's question, parceni was unhelpful and somewhat rude.

As for research, let's put it this way; I just watched, let's say, Troy, and I reckon that an army of Greek pikemen would look the business. Now, my main priority is the minis; after all, if I spend my gaming budget on reference books and have none left over for minis, those books are useless, and may as well be used for loo paper.

As for "not doing any research", what d'you think that initial post was? If you don't like being used as a reference sours, feel free to keep your mouth shut. Westphalia, was DDS' response, about the Osprey books, any use to you?

As for wanting online resources, this is the age of the computer, after all. Personally speaking, if I wanted to get into WW1 gaming, I'd pick up one of the lovely box sets that are done by a company I can't remember right now (they do Orcs, too), copy the box photo for colour schemes, and try to track down the WI articles from earlier this year about WW1. That's plenty research for me.

Piquetone, "As for Static Tyrant-I wish him luck if he goes to his local public library and begins exploring the other FUN part of Historical gaming."

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you could objectively state what's fun or not. i figured it was a personal thing. frequenting the Mitchell Library poring over dusty tomes is not my idea of fun.

As for "expert = snob", garness, I think you'll find that "snob = snob".

"We now live in a country where skilled musicians and their fans are Classical music snobs, while people who shout to a rythym are stars"

So, if it doesn't have 30 musicians and a guy in evening dress waving a stick, it can't be being played by skilled musicians? A perfect example of snobbery; What I like is good, everything else is not.

I find it interesting that I let BME pass me by, but this gets me to type my longest post to date on TMP :)

There is a corollary to my above statement. If you have done the research and are conversant with the period and somebody points out a discrepancy in your paint job, you have several choices:

1. Thank him for his advice, and change the detail when you can.
2. Thank him for his advice, and leave it as it is.
3. Tell him you appreciate his help, but you like 'em as they are since they accurately reflect the unit on a date you wish to commemmorate.
4. Ignore him.

In no case does it have to affect your enjoyment of your figures. Certainly if the discrepancy is minor in your estimation-kiss it off! In short, don't let someone else's opinions ruin your ejoyment. Be inner, not outer, directed.

The history is arguably more important to get right than a button color. If someone comments on a button color, try thanking him and then ask his opinion of the Continental system or the Treaty of Tilsit (smile, if he starts talking about spare tires or cheese).

One of the joys of 10s(or 6s) is button color becomes moot.

John OFM, don't brag as we all know that Canadians are always in short red coats, blue riding jodhpurs, topped with brown Smokey Bear hats, and carry a log cabin shaped Maple-syrup can instead of of a water bottle.

I am always amazed that every time we have tried to make a gift of US democracy to them, and make Ottawa a state, they have, in spite of a lack of camoflage(red coats against white snow?), managed to send us back South without our supplies or pride.

I guess any country that invented Hockey must be tough. Hockey, for you newbies, is a sport once played in Canada and the US, but now only played in eastern Europe and Sweden.

BJ

My, my what did I start. While I did mispell dilettante, that's exactly what I meant...I don't expect anyone to become an expert in a period before or while playing it, but a minimum investment in time and energy is required. As John OFM pointed out, whatever you can say about Osprey's, and believe me I have, expensive is not one of them. I do sympathize with the original poster, whose reply's suggest a committed wargamer. I am more amused by everyone else this has brought out of the woodwork trying to defend their slothness...I understand that the fantasy crowd wants to paint their stuff anyway they want...they are also willing to pay through the nose for miniatures and I would not support either position.

While the issue of painting and organization is important, the shortcutting of some gamers new to a period also results in an incomplete understanding of the period gamed, which to me is a bigger problem..."why can't my guys just deploy like this"...because that was not the way it was done at that time bunky. Historical facts, who needs facts...feelings are what counts.

db (from a red state)

Mr. Paul,

Having enjoyed your wife's seafood, when I was a boy, I am loathe to reply to your response to my comment that,

"We now live in a country where skilled musicians and their fans are Classical music snobs, while people who shout to a rythym are stars"

By stating,

"So, if it doesn't have 30 musicians and a guy in evening dress waving a stick, it can't be being played by skilled musicians? A perfect example of snobbery; What I like is good, everything else is not."

First of all, that's a damn small symphony! Similarly I was stating that certain artists and their fans are characterized as "snobs" while "shouters" are stars. Your remark about "evening dress" plays right into this stereoype. I never mentioned backwards ball caps, t-shirts with scatalogical statements, or other endearing aspects of popular music in my remarks.

The fact is, any form of activity that requires an investment of time, reading, study, experience, or thought is, as even our President has said, "hard...really hard!" and it's so much easier and faster gratification to settle for crap, or arrange for someone else to do the hard lifting.

The common taste is well...common. That's how it got its name. The insecurities of some citizens are so great when faced with understanding anything beyond the obvious, that they come to criticize the great and praise the banal.

When anyone points this out he is called a snob by those who simply are too lazy to develop knowledge, understanding, and appreciation for anything "hard."

BJ

[As for "expert = snob", garness, I think you'll find that "snob = snob".]

My point exactly, there are numerous schmucks who don't like my orange goblins. I grew up with the monster manual, ala D&D, and goblins are orangeish maybe yellow, and dirty.

Not until I read my first white Dwarf did I see a green goblin, outside of spiderman. But alas, I must suffer through the indignty of having the correct skin tone of my goblins as laid out in the Monster manual by Gary Gygax whilst so many other have used the Orc and Goblin plates in the latest edition of the Orc and Goblin WHFB Army list as written by some upstart in the UK who believes, according to some testing that has yet to be repeated or reproduced in independent labratory tests with a placebo, Goblins should be green.

Additionally, why don't more orks have pig faces anymore, with pointy tusks?? And why are they now members of the fungii family, fungius orcusus, instead of family Homo uruki oinkus??? Harumpff, the nerve of using a fungus to represent a real, and historically accurate, butt-ugly, pig-faced marauder of old. I do believe this is the work of some troll that lives under a bridge who constantly is reading the innane scribblings of some fat old dwarf with a white beard who says his cousin, twice removed on his mother's side, slew an orc once in a mushroom patch. It is my assertion that that same dwarf, who is known to shave his beard on days ending in "y", did in fact eat the mushrooms and did nothing more than knock the beegezus out of an elderberry shrub in his delusion.

G. Ness, local resident authority on the color of goblin's skin throughout the 18th Century and on to present.

There will be a quiz!

nevisnrip scripsit: "Why, John, does it pain you so to help someone with the right colors for facings or coats or leggings?"

That's easy. I WOULD help him, except for the fact that he declared up front that he has absolutely NO interest in touching, let alone picking up or buying a "book". He's not asking for help. He's asking, no, demanding, that I do all his work for him.

"Mr. Paul,

Having enjoyed your wife's seafood, when I was a boy, I am loathe to reply to your response to my comment that,"

You've lost me. I ain't married.*

In any case, I was meaning that plenty of these other musical styles are just as skillful as classical musicians. My original reply was somewhat facetious, which appears to have obscured my point.

"goblins are orangeish maybe yellow, and dirty."

In at least one version of the D&D monster manual. Hardly a definitive guide :) The obvious answer here, is Warhammer Goblins (and Confrontation Goblins, and plenty of other examples) are green. Obviously, if you're playing a D&D game in greyhawk (is that the 'default' setting?), then, yes, you can be smug in your correct knowledge. If, however, you're playing Warhammer, with the implicit fact that the game is set in GW's world, then your orange goblins are indeed incorrect.

John, I don't see where he demanded you do all the work. Asking for web references is prefectly acceptable in this day and age, especially given the medium we are currently using for communication :) Perhaps he has no access to the relevant books? I know my local library has nothing in-depth on such subjects. Suggesting a website, or even a keyword or two for a Google search, is no harder than saying "buy an Osprey book".

*Piquetone, you'll be pleased to know, 20 seconds of Google research alerted me as to what you were talking about :)
The front page of this website: link is somewhat disconcerting. I don't like being stared down by a crustacean.

A further point; Googling for "world war 1 small unit actions", "world war 1 platoon TOE" and ""world war 1" platoon TOE" didn't throw up anything useful for this novice. So, in future, were I to bother to ask here, even a list of keywords would be helpful.

(Garness at home wrote):

"Garbage. I get criticized because I have gold buttons instead of brass and the pompoms are white instead of the appropriate company color. This is elitist stupidity."

I'm sorry, but I have to believe that this statement is _pure_ hyperbole. How would anyone even have the kahoonahs to start a quarrel about whether the metallic trimmings on your toy soldiers were either brass or gold? (at small scales it can be tough to even tell)

This is either a ficticious incident or you're dealing with a world class (Bill can bleep this) . Such a person is well beyond the pale of _any_ reasonable human, and is by-no-means representative of the historical branch of the gaming hobby!

I can't say that I've ever kept company with such people.

Fred

John, No one is DEMANDING anything of you. If you don't want to answer a question....then don't. But ask yourself this. Why is it so important to you, that someone else had to reasearch something you already know the answer to?................Bill

[I'm sorry, but I have to believe that this statement is _pure_ hyperbole. How would anyone even have the kahoonahs to start a quarrel about whether the metallic trimmings on your toy soldiers were either brass or gold? (at small scales it can be tough to even tell)

This is either a ficticious incident or you're dealing with a world class (Bill can bleep this) . Such a person is well beyond the pale of _any_ reasonable human, and is by-no-means representative of the historical branch of the gaming hobby!]

Sadly the story is true. Playing with this person once was enough for the rest of this life and a few more to come. Most folks could care less, but there always seems to be one that comes out from under their rock.

Interestingly enough, it was not his historical "quirkyness" that got him run off, it was his insane assertions how the Catholics in Ireland were the reason for the break up of the Christian church in the US and the eventual election of Bill Clinton and US subservience to the UN by keeping Hussein in power. All of this belongs on another board to be sure, but I think you get the idea that this fellow inparticular had WAAYY too much freetime and most likely a few mental stability issues to boot. But he did bathe so there is something :/

[I can't say that I've ever kept company with such people.]

I make it a point to not to be available to play, speak or breathe the same air if at all possible when such individuals are around.

It does somehow not strike me as odd that the folks who frequent game stores seem to be highly individualistic, some extremely so while others are nice enough. But I wish I could find a game store that does not have "the store weirdo" as part of plumbing. :(

Bill,

I'll bite. Piquetone may have alluded to this point earlier, but IMHO there is an unconsciously buddhist quality to historical gaming in _one_ respect. Historical gaming is not trying to find anybody. One must find ones own way to historicals .

Does one need to learn to walk on coals or master tantric yoga to get involved? Not-at-all!

But frankly, an evangelical approach to our collective hobby I find troubling. GW may have formed a successful business model on assuring a critical mass of new warm bodies are buying their products, but contrary to many chicken littles, I do not believe the historical end of the gaming hobby will wither and die without a heavy dose of proselytization.

No one will stop a person from playing historical games if they have no knowledge of the period (nor should they), however, having a low hurdle or two (like showing a genuine interest in a period of history) before one is considered a "historicals gamer" is (again IMHO) totally reasonable.

Fred

Maybe the original poster already owns a book and doesn't need to renew it before sometime?...

More seriously, I can understand that we have two stances on gaming, two different philosophies. As I belong more to the "research your History" side I believe our joy comes from (not in) the effort put in acquiring knowledge and discovering facts through research. "No pain, no gain".

Now, I am not going to try to convince anyone that is the "right approach" (I do not have to defend anything here) however Tyrant, if you rephrase slightly your requests, bearing in mind that people putting time and effort (and reading books) are not "dorks", you might get some very good answers. I suppose it is all about respect, communication and understanding (I liked the Yoga approach rene le good as used ;-))

Try again

Sigh. Let me try one more time. Show a minimal amount of effort. Show that you care, and are not just going through the motions.

Why is it so important that the 64th Regoment of 1758 (not to be confused with the 64th Regiment of 1779) be rendered accurately? It isn't. Unless you want it to be.

Why do I keep returning to this thread, like a dog to his own vomit? Because the entire premise of both the title of this thread, and the first post, AND a new one about "Research vs Gaming" is a slap in the face to those who take the time, and yes, the money, to care to get things correct. If you cannot understand this, that's not a problem. It really isn't. But to hold me in contempt because I care for something that is obviously felt to be beyond stupid by some... Well, I will not hold my peace.

I won't promise to not return to this thread. I've done that before, and come back. But it is already sucking air, and all thoughts are being recycled. Nothing original will be said that hasn't already been said.

Check the 18th Century Discussion boards. Show me a question about the FIW or AWI where I have refused to help when I knew the answer. I can show them to you too. There are a few where the originator came right out and said that he could not be bothered to do the research himself. And I mocked them, and will do it again. And again. But ask me, like you really want to know, or are confused, and I will help, if I can. Heck, the last two days have shown where I am wrong, and just guessed.

If you are too damn lazy, or cheap, to try to find it out yourself, at least have the grace to hide the fact. Don't come out and admit it in public.

Good post John. Take a breather.

Hello again all, and thanks for your input. Apologies for not contributing sooner - but Australians have got to sleep sometime, and it isn't the same time the rest of you do!

Inasmuch as my primary purpose in starting this thread was to put parceni's comments out there in slightly more 'public view', as I felt they demanded the teensiest bit of censure / ridicule / laughing-at, I apologise to those who feel I was "trolling" - but I assure you I was not.

There are many stages to becoming interested in a period. The nature of the questions you ask at each stage is of course going to change as you dip deeper and deeper into the intricacies of the subject.

I found myself asking a question while at the "sort of pretty interested" stage. Let me set the stage for you.

I had built a 1:72 plastic tank model which I received as a birthday gift. Some research had indicated to me that it was not historically correct as sculpted. However I did not feel this would detract from MY enjoyment of the model - I could still build it (fun!), paint it (fun!), weather it (fun!) and wargame with it (fun!) - as it is immediately apparent what it is and what it is armed with, even if the number of rivets and shape of the vision slits, etc, is incorrect.

I thought "hey, this is neat." I looked around at home and found a bunch of WW2 plastic soldiers in the same scale - old Airfix, Revell and so on figures. Throwing out those obviously equipped incorrectly (bazookas, lighter machine-guns, and so on) I found myself with a large pile of unpainted plastic figures armed mostly with rifles, grenades, machine pistols, flamethrowers and other reasonably appropriate weapons. I had some officers, some mortar crews...the whole shebang.

I looked at the box illustration for the tank and was impressed by the artist's rendition, where he had painted the tank crossing a waterlogged, cratered landscape. I decided that using an actual mirror to represent the water surface (with crater edges, etc rising up above this surface) would give a very pleasing look to the terrain.

So, I now have tanks, infantry, and terrain. Nothing is painted, and I don't have any organisation to the figures - there are just "a lot of them." Clearly what I need is some painting guides (or uniform information, however you want to to describe it) and some unit organisation and equipment material, what some call TOEs but specifically aimed at the smaller scale of battle.

When a topic came up on TMP that got me thinking about this stuff again, I decided it might be a good time to casually ask if such information could even be obtained online. I would prefer to find my information this way - if not, well, I am literate and intelligent, and have no problem sourcing a book that will suit my minimal budget.

The reply I received was just...shocking? Surprising? I was so amazed that someone would actually waste their time lambasting me. A simple "no-one can help you, such a website does not exist" would have done just fine.

I can understand not liking that I haven't done as much research as you. But why waste your own time telling me so? Is it fun to be morally superior about your little soldiers? Would your wife, friends, colleagues agree and understand your position? Or would they think you are weird, petty or even disturbing for doing so?

And surely - surely - my position is not unlike many newcomers to any given period. My budget has stretched, so far, to a few mirror tiles, another tank, and a couple of cheap plastic infantry sets to provide an opfor for my ex-WW2 germans. And even that has just about emptied the bank. This money could instead have been spent on one, maybe two books. I certainly couldn't have both, and would never place research material ahead of actually having some useful figures - as one poster said, that's just a waste of paper.

Here is my situation. I'm trying to make the best of it. As a community, are you interested in helping me (and others like me), or in resting on your own laurels?

PS. I would consider myself a reasonably experienced gamer. I am not the seventeen year old mindless American teenager some have made me out to be. I feel that I can ask these sorts of questions of the community because I am already secure in what my answer would be - not because I am a good-for-nothing lazy type with a gimme attitude. I want to understand you people and your reasons - by this stage, this discussion has become so interesting that the original casual request for information is almost of less importance!

Static Tyrant. Read all the previous posts.

try again

Static tyrant said, in part:

My budget has stretched, so far, to a few mirror tiles, another tank, and a couple of cheap plastic infantry sets to provide an opfor for my ex-WW2 germans. And even that has just about emptied the bank. This money could instead have been spent on one, maybe two books. I certainly couldn't have both, and would never place research material ahead of actually having some useful figures - as one poster said, that's just a waste of paper.

Static, I offer the following advice:

If you cannot afford another plastic tank and two boxes of infantry because it emptied the bank - then you cannot afford figures period. Buy shoes for your kids, milk for meals, coats for wiinter don't spend another dime on wargaming or you are failing your responsibilities to yourself and your family.

If that is an exaggeration, and you can afford a small sum - then BUY THE BOOKS AND READ THEM! Use card board mock-ups, thimbles for infantry, match-boxes for tanks. The money should first go to the SUBSTANCE of your supposed hobby, not the representations!

You got it back wards, ol' buddy!

BJ

OK, let me get this straight. 100 posts of vitriol and angst stem from a thread on World War ONE, on which Static Tyrant wanted some low-level organizational data for his World War TWO toys, but didn't indicate that he was looking for a different period. And rude postings started the whole downhill ride.

TMP link

The "bayonetstrength" link in the second post on this thread is an outstanding online source for WWII unit organization, and many, many, many TMP posters have noted in the past.

I will leave commentary on the virtue of looking in the archives for others to address, if they feel the need.

Allen

I have only two things to add.

First, I want to be the 100th post and hopefully I succeeded.

If not my accuracy is off and I am completely dejected.

Sorry, I could not resist the jest.

Which brings me to my second point:

I love games, research, beautiful figures and sadly less so painting. My figures are reasonably accurate and my games as near as I can determine are enjoyed by those playing. My obs are not always right, the paint shades vary with mileage but the illusion of what happened can be created via my moving diorama. That is enough for me. Others may have other personal expectations so be it. The fact remains we all approach this hobby in different ways. I respect that and as long as you can respect me for my approach we can play together.

So to answer the initial question, yes I would share knowledge. I also reserve the right to ask questions. Sometimes my questions have not always been well phrased and the same is true of my answers. I would hope whoever read what I wrote cut me some slack as I would them.

Have fun, play games.

Allen-

It isn't proper to come to a party late, and not having seen all of the drinking, dancing, and general foolery, to offer judgement on what has proceeded - rather like the cop summoned by a disturbed neighbor.

Static tyrant is undoubtedly .

BJ