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"60mm x 30mm de facto standard in 6mm basing" Topic


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Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 7:35 a.m. PST

About 10 years ago I decided to rebase my 6mm collection of some 25,000 figures (now closer to 40,000) on the 60mm x 30mm base sold by Baccus6mm. Our club also decided to use their Polemos Napoleonic rules.

Since that time I have noticed this base size is being used by a lot of 6mm players, not just for Polemos or Napoleonic's. Pictures of large horse and musket battles on the web in 6mm are very often seen on these bases or it's sister base the 60mm x 60mm. It's also a common base on ebay. It's reached the point when it's rare that I see a large 6mm collection that is not on these bases.

Although the Polemos rules can be played with other base sizes and figure scales the main base used by the 1,334 members is the 60x30.

I recently spoke with Peter Berry at Baccus about this and he gave me some very interesting details. His base supplier that supplies a lot of companies told him he is his second biggest customer. It's not unusual for his cutter to be working overtime to complete his orders. Baccus biggest customers are four well established painting services.

The biggest shocker, however, is that Baccus alone is selling 15,000 60x30 bases a year. No wonder I'm seeing this base used by so many 6mm players.

I think that the 60x30 base has now become the de facto standard base for 6mm due to sheer volume that is primarily in Napoleonic's.

Has anybody else noticed this?

Ben Waterhouse25 Apr 2014 7:37 a.m. PST

No

Grinning Norm25 Apr 2014 7:47 a.m. PST

So is it wise to base on 60x30 or rather something else? I didn't base my 6mm armies at all as I had no clue, eventually letting interest slip as I didn't have any based forces. 40x20 seems to be the other option. Or something totally different. Very interested in hearing what the consensus is.

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 8:02 a.m. PST

There is no "de facto" standard in any scale for any period.

The closest we had was the WRG standard for Ancients, but then WArhammer Ancients blew that out of the water.

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 8:06 a.m. PST

Hello Grinning Norm!

I would certainly say it is wise to base them on 60x30. I've yet to find a rule set that you can't use with them. In some cases you might have to make a few minor adjustments to the rules. In most rules it's a single unit but in others it can be a part unit or a combined unit. A very versatile base, which is probably one of the reasons it's seems to be so popular.

Yes 40x20 does seem to be the other option. I've found that the 40x20 is a little too small to handle as a base/single unit/battalion. The units seem to turn on a dime. Some games look a little more like a football game to me, rather then a Napoleonic battle. However, if your pressed for space it's certainly a good option.

Best regards,

Glenn

Chortle Fezian25 Apr 2014 8:10 a.m. PST

I have painted and sold hundreds of thousands of Baccus 6mm horse and musket era figures. 80-90% have been on 60mm X 30mm bases.

Rakkasan25 Apr 2014 8:11 a.m. PST

I have not noticed it.

As discussed on the Baccus forums, the 60 by 30 base size does look nice but there is a lot of support for other base sizes as well – 40 x 20, 25 x 25 (one inch by one inch), and assorted other sizes.

Even Peter has gone with the 40 x 20 option for the Hail Caesar packs.

Sho Boki25 Apr 2014 8:18 a.m. PST

Are there 20mm x 10mm bases in use too?

Yesthatphil25 Apr 2014 8:27 a.m. PST

No … There is some 60mm/Baccus but what I see more often is 40mm/80mm i.e. multiples of the WRG 15mm frontage standard (that's not Napoleonic, however) …

Phil

jeffreyw325 Apr 2014 9:14 a.m. PST

So everyone using 6mm is playing army-level games with battalions or large as single stands?

I'm seriously considering getting into the scale, but to be able to do 1:10 or 1:5 (and ideally getting more properly width vs depth than is possible w/25mm).

Personal logo taskforce58 Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2014 9:14 a.m. PST

My Baccus ACW are based in 20mm square for F&F.

Happy Little Trees25 Apr 2014 9:54 a.m. PST

It lets you put the flags in the middle without having to chop a stand of figures in half.

Sho Boki25 Apr 2014 9:59 a.m. PST

There are two reasons for use figures below 15mm..
1) More figures on base
2) Smaller bases.

So far I see, that only first reason are used.

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 10:13 a.m. PST

Nope. Wait, what I mean is … nope. I literally have never seen a 60x30mm base being used in play, and I've seen plenty of 6mm figures of all periods being used with all sorts of other bases, at conventions in Europe and the States. I have no idea why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this. People using 6mm figures (myself included as of recently) have always pretty used the "same base size as for other scales, but more figures" formula. 20mm, 25mm, and even 40mm base frontages are far more accepted in far more rules, and much more flexible. This is a scale independent fact. Even jumping up to 80mm (3") gets you into the base-as-brigade rules.

If Baccus is selling a lot of them (and Chortle is painting a lot of them), there must be a thriving network of Polemos players that most of the rest of the world isn't aware of … or Baccus does a good job of selling the base size and people only realize it isn't such a great idea until after they've taken that first step. On the other hand, maybe Polemos is big in the UK club scene? I honestly don't know, but you don't see AAR's or people talking much about it.

Serious question does any other rules system except Baccus' Polemos system use these 60x30mm bases?

Black Hat Miniatures25 Apr 2014 10:19 a.m. PST

I've also not seen them used or Polemos played anywhere.

Also, how many times do you need to ask this question? You've brought it up at least once before and got the same response from people.

Mike

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2014 10:20 a.m. PST

My 6mm – ACW and Napoleonic – are pretty much all based on stands using the size for 15mm Fire & Fury

Which means, for example, my French III Corps, 1st Division has four units – one brigade of 11 stands and 3 brigades of 6 stands each, plus a battery and of course the requisite handsomely uniformed general

Paul S25 Apr 2014 10:52 a.m. PST

Mine are based 60x30 as when I went to Naps I used Polemos. However now using black powder with 4 stands to a standard unit. Works well and looks about right on the table; even with my standard of painting

Whirlwind25 Apr 2014 10:54 a.m. PST

@CATenWolde,

I can't think of a ruleset which uses 60mm x 30mm bases in exactly the same way as Polemos, but DBA, HFG and I think FoG:N work without modification. Grande Armee and V&B work with the two bases butted together method (as does Hail Caesar I believe? I think that was what was used when Neil Shuck was talking about it in Meeples & Miniatures).

Most other rules will need at least a 'little' work to play smoothly with the 60mm x 30mm base size.

Regards

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2014 10:54 a.m. PST

There is a bunch of people on the Baccus forum who are keen on promoting the 60x30 base. Fair enough, that is their choice. If you are using a single stand as a battalion it is a good size.

I prefer multi-stand units because I like to see different formations on the table. So I use 40x20 bases for Infantry and Cavalry and 40x40 for Artillery.

I would say that 60x30 is a very popular base size for 6mm figures but a long way from being a 'standard'.

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 10:59 a.m. PST

Hello Sho Boki!

There probably are some 6mm using 20x10, but I don't recall seeing any.

Best regards,

Glenn

Kmfisher25 Apr 2014 11:09 a.m. PST

I've chosen the 60x30 option. After painting two 6mm DBA armies on 40x20, I thought the bases just seemed to small and the figures crammed on the base. I also found myself picking them up by the figures in stead of the base with the 40x20s. The 60x30s give me a bit more "fat finger" room.

My .02 cents

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 11:23 a.m. PST

Hello jefferyw3!

No, there are lots of players not using single base stands or playing army level games.

We scale our games to the battle. So in some games this base is used as only part of unit. I've seen a couple of people who commonly use them as 1/3 of a battalion. So your 1:5 is certainly doable with this size of a base.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 11:28 a.m. PST

Hello John the OFM!

Probably as late as five years ago I would agree with you. But times they are a changing. What else would you call the apparently most popular base in a given period and scale?

Best regards,

Glenn

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 11:29 a.m. PST

Here's the thing that would keep me away from 60x30's. This is a basic rule of thumb for Napoleonic frontages and ground scales that I use:

20mm frontage = 300 men @ 1" = 100 yards
20mm frontage = 150 men @ 1" = 50 yards
20mm frontage = 75 men @ 1" = 25 yards

So, a 60mm frontage would be about 900 men at 100 yards ground scale (too large for battalions, too small for brigades), 450 men at 50 yards ground scale (really too weak to represent a standard battalion), or 225 men at 25 yards ground scale. For the third option you could actually use three bases to get you a 675 man "average" battalion, but I never liked using three bases per battalion, as showing different formations is clumsy.

Now, I was a bit liberal with file spacing (2.5' instead of 2'), so you could theoretically pack in a few more men on the above frontages. However, to my mind, using 20mm or 40mm bases gives you much more flexibility in terms of moving up and down ground scales, and also for using sabots if needed – and they match up perfectly well with most Napoleonic basing standards without any fudging.

The combination of using large bases *and* multiple bases per battalion (which is the overwhelming norm) locks you into a very small ground scale – probably 20 yards or *less* per inch. This in turn severely limits the types of games you can play. Now, not all people will care about this – great for them, and have fun! But I wouldn't want to lock myself in.

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 11:31 a.m. PST

… "apparently" most popular base …

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

YouTube link

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 12:13 p.m. PST

Hello CATenWolde

I'm really not surprised that you have never seen one as 6mm is still very much a third tier scale. If you attend one of the 6mm conventions you will see them.

"I have no idea why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this."

Curious.

I would certainly agree that in the previous century the thinking in 6mm was primarily to simply use other scale basing and stick on more figures. There was however a very large group that simply focused on small basing of roughly 1" square bases. That all seemed to change with the appearance of "new school" rules that advocated single base battalions, regiments and brigades.

Welcome to the world of 6mm. It will probably change your gaming for the better.

Remember Baccus is only one seller (and apparently a very big one)and Chortle is painting hundreds of thousands, is also only one painter. There is a thriving network of Polemos players that a lot of people are not aware of. I have no clue about micro armor, why because I rarely look at it. Does that mean it's not thriving?

"Baccus does a good job of selling the base size and people only realize it isn't such a great idea until after they've taken that first step."

Now that would have to be an extremely large group.

"I honestly don't know, but you don't see AAR's or people talking much about it."

I don't see many AAR's either, but they are out there and most of the ones I do see are using this base.

"Serious question does any other rules system except Baccus' Polemos system use these 60x30mm bases?"

I see that Whirlwind answered this question. I can only add that there are a coupe of others that have been mentioned to me, but I can't remember what they were. I do know that you can play V&B regimental with no problem. Also as I have said before I'm not aware of any rule set that you can't use by simply being creative. For example two people have told me they use them for Black Powder. One as elements and the other as two elements.

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 12:19 p.m. PST

"apparently" most popular base …

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

YouTube link"

Apparently somebody has a serious problem!

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 12:23 p.m. PST

But times they are a changing. What else would you call the apparently most popular base in a given period and scale?

I see anecdotal evidence from several people asserting what the OP said. I see no "proof" of anything.
What I DO see is lots of disagreement.

*I* base all my AWI 28mm figures on 2" x 1" bases. This is the very convenient 50mm x 25mm size that GW sells, and is also commercially available. I cut my own though, from basswood.

I have even seen several rules sets that use MY scale! And I have seen many more that do not. Who is wrong? I can happily play British Grenadier, the "most popular AWI rules" (this year) just by doubling my ranks of bases.
I can play Patriots and Loyalists with them.
I am probably "off" for playing Age of Reason, but I have never checked. That is what we play, BTW.
Many mount 4 figures on 40mmx40mm bases, but then they show 6 on 60mmx40mm bases in the same rules. (See BG…)

I repeat that there is no such thing as a "de facto standard" basing scheme for any scale in any period. The fact that "quite a few" use it does not make it de facto standard.

KTravlos25 Apr 2014 12:25 p.m. PST

Do remember that there is nothing stopping you from using 40mm frontage bases and saboting them on 60mm frontpage bases.! And there my friend is your solution! Options!

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 12:28 p.m. PST

I'm actually going to use Adler, because of their great French Rev period line. I'm hardly new to small scales, however – I was an early and vocal advocate of 10mm figures and maintained the "10mmWorld" web site for several years.

At any rate, if you haven't seen "The Princess Bride" (where from that clip is taken) you should use your Friday to watch it – it's a classic, and then you might get the (fairly ubiquitous) joke, and not assume that anybody who disagrees with you has a "serious problem".

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 12:33 p.m. PST

Hello Black Hat Miniatures!

Certainly this subject has been touched upon before. But please show me where I have asked this question before and where are the similar responses?

If your really not interested in this subject, please move on.

Black Hat Miniatures25 Apr 2014 12:40 p.m. PST

How about here

TMP link

Where you put forward your view at some length…

Mike

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 12:43 p.m. PST

Or this train wreck, from just a few days ago:

TMP link

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 12:45 p.m. PST

See you clearly have misquoted me, I never said "anybody", I said "somebody".

Your so called "joke", was an insult, and is considered a personal attack.

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 12:54 p.m. PST

Hello Mike!

My views yes, but the question was asked where? And the similar responses are where? I see a completely different series of responses. I assume you do not? I don't recall seeing anything from you? Did I miss that?

Glenn Pearce25 Apr 2014 1:05 p.m. PST

Hello John the OFM!

Sorry, perhaps my question was worded poorly. I'm just curious as to what you would call a base that was clearly proven to be "the most popular". Please keep in mind I'm not saying that this base has been proven to be the most popular.

Also what is your definition of "de facto".

Best regards,

Glenn

CATenWolde25 Apr 2014 1:09 p.m. PST

Glenn, if you think that was an insult, you really need to get out more – it was more on the order of a wry jibe, a digital poke in the ribs, a virtual eyebrow jig.

And if you really think it was a personal attack, then please report me for it – if so, I should be dawghoused. If not, then maybe … you keep using that word, but maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means. ;) <- smiley

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 1:14 p.m. PST

Also what is your definition of "de facto"

It's your phrase, you put it in the title. What did YOU mean by it?

For the record, I also consider the phrase "most popular" silly and worthless.

morrigan25 Apr 2014 1:17 p.m. PST

I was thinking about using 25mmx50mm, just because I like the size for the figures.

Lion in the Stars25 Apr 2014 1:24 p.m. PST

There are two reasons for use figures below 15mm..
1) More figures on base
2) Smaller bases.

So far I see, that only first reason are used.

I have an issue with 2:1 width:depth ratio bases, so I'm going to use 3mm minis, probably on 40x10mm bases, for my Napoleonics.

For 6mm, a unit on *multiple* 40x10s is just about right. 3 deep files and ~50 men per rank (per company) gives a long and very shallow formation. Much shallower than most games allow for.

Either option means *both* more figures on bases and less-deep bases. 60x30mm might be good for ancients, but I think you will run into trouble as soon as you start seeing firearms.

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 1:26 p.m. PST

I was thinking about using 25mmx50mm, just because I like the size for the figures.

Then you should. That is why I use the exact same size for my 25/28mm AWI, and do not worry about any nonsense like "de facto standard" or "most popular". grin

Mike Petro25 Apr 2014 1:28 p.m. PST

I base mine on 40x30mm because I had a load of spare bases.

GLENN,

Reading the links provided, and as a disinterested party, you come off as a victim in all these posts. Your original posts are pushy, and frankly annoying. Then when somebody disagrees, or criticizes your opinion, you become hostile. Which normally ends poorly for you as you KEEP POSTING about it.

And what's up with the quotes, and 900 word rebuttals? Do you really think anybody reads all that?

I feel that you purposely start these threads to pick a fight. Then play victim when you're feelings get hurt. I cant count how many times you said you were "offended" on here. Children play those games, dont do it here.

You really need to check yourself, BRO.

Stifle me, DHouse me. I dont care, it needs to be said.

And I wont be reading your massive quotes and rebuttals…

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 1:31 p.m. PST

Well put, Mister Milkshake.

Black Hat Miniatures25 Apr 2014 2:27 p.m. PST

Glenn,

The responses seem the same to me.

You state that 60 x 30mm bases are standard for 6mm.

Everyone else says, in their experience, that they are not…

Why keep asking the question when you have already said you have based your own collection this way?

Mike

1815Guy25 Apr 2014 3:23 p.m. PST

No, not standard at all for small scale troops.

3"x3" (or 2"x2" in reduced scale) is standard for the hordes who play Grande Armee, and/or Volley and Bayonet which spans 3 major periods for gaming from SYW to FPW

Ive seen a lot of 6mm based on standard Naps Battles bases, for which a number of rulesets can be used, inluding Age of Eagles and Lasalle. And similarly standard and reduced scale Fire and Fury bases for ACW.

There are far more people not playing Polemos than are playing Polymos, thus a lot more people using alternative rules and appropriate base sizes for those rules.

Like CatTenWolde I have never seen 60 x 30 bases in a 6mm game, and I have been gaming Nap 6mm since about 1990, WW2 some further ten years before that. I also use Adlers, not baccus, so I think the OP is making a classic error of too much self-referencing in his theory.

Lets also not forget that a LOT of 6mm models and figures are sold for WW2, so a 30 x30 base etc could easily be seen as the true standard basing for 6mm figures. Now I HAVE seen loads and loads of these in my time!

And clearly Polymos must be some dark underground freemasonry as I dont find the rules commonly played at all. Never seen a game in favt. But thats just a personal observation.

So 60 x30 just happens to be YOUR standard basing for 6mm, which is not the same thing at all as THE standard basing!!! :)

Chad4725 Apr 2014 3:25 p.m. PST

I've seen photographs of these 60x 30 based 6mm and think the bases themselves are far too thick relative to the figure scale. Visually they would look better on a stout card base.

As too their popularity as a base size, I have always had the impression that it was simply a case that if you used Polemos rules you really did not have a choice. I am not sure that this gives. 60x30 any sort of qualification as some kind of standard base.

KTravlos25 Apr 2014 4:06 p.m. PST

really speaking if I remember pole-mos uses base width for ranges so I think you can use it with any basing, as long as you decide what makes up a "base"

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 6:08 p.m. PST

So 60 x30 just happens to be YOUR standard basing for 6mm, which is not the same thing at all as THE standard basing!!! :)

Which is exactly the point I make about MY 2"x1" (50mmx25mm" AWI bases. grin
I RECOMMEND that base size but I do not insist that it is any kind of cockamamie "de facto standard" base size.

KTravlos25 Apr 2014 6:29 p.m. PST

Ok, did this really happen?

John the OFM25 Apr 2014 6:43 p.m. PST

No.
It's all in your imagination.

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