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Grignotage31 Mar 2014 12:23 p.m. PST

Hey all, I have a huge pile of 6mm Napoleonics that I've been thinking about getting to work on.

They were originally purchased with Grande Armee in mind, a game I very much enjoy, but I've been thinking about other games they could be set up for (since GA uses brigade squares, other basing systems can easily be put on them).

In particular, I like the idea of a system in which each division is made up of individual stands that represent its battalions, squadrons, and batteries. When you set up your division, therefore, it's a collection of individual bases that set up in different arrangements. I imagine there wouldn't be much need or desire to mark formations for each stand.

I feel as though I've read about this approach being used in a game somewhere, but can't for the life of me remember a name. Do any such rules sets exist, or was this purely fantasy? If so, does anybody else think a Napoleonic game could work with basing like that (ie, a division is basically a cloud of individual stands)?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Personal logo T Callahan Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2014 1:12 p.m. PST

I use the rule set call "Orders to Eagles" it is a grand tactical which the description you are looking for. All the stands are one inch square each. The only battalion formation you need to make decisions one is whether to go to square or not. Command and control are very important to movement etc.

We have been using these rules for about a year. They are easy to learn and play. There is only one double sided quick reference sheet that you use in play. The combat table is easy enough that players get the system down after a couple of turns.

We even converted a non Napoleonic gamer to Napoleonic games with this rule set.
Terry

Sparker31 Mar 2014 1:42 p.m. PST

Its sounds as if you need to wait for Sam Mustafa's BLucher rules, which intel suggests will be one Battalion/Regiment to a base….

marshalGreg31 Mar 2014 1:47 p.m. PST

T Callahan,
Is it similiar to Legacy of Glory II? Who sales these rules or are they home grown?

Sparker,
These rules by Sam have been on the works for some time now with now indication of when. has this changed?

MG

Glenn Pearce31 Mar 2014 2:04 p.m. PST

Hello Grignotage!

Your probably referring to Polemos by Baccus6mm. It's a two rule set in one system. One for big battles and one for smaller ones. The big battles use a 60mm x 60mm base. The smaller battles use a 60mm x 30mm base. The beauty here is you can use two of the 60mm x 30mm bases to make you 60mm x 60mm base for the big battles. You can of course play GA or Volley and Bayonet along with other rules using these bases.

It's a rule system designed for 6mm but can be used by other scales. The 60mm x 30mm base is almost the standard for 6mm gaming.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB31 Mar 2014 2:07 p.m. PST

The 60mm x 30mm base is almost the standard for 6mm gaming.

It is? What other rules systems use it?

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2014 2:12 p.m. PST

You are not alone, Grignotage! I have been working on a set with the features you describe. I,too, do not care for those 1 base = a battalion sets. My approach also switches emphasis from casualties as a regulating factor to a cohesion value set. You put your battalions on as a unit and they come off as a unit. In the grand tactical scheme, you are worried if the Brigdaes and Divisions remain combat effective from the loss of units being worn down from cohesion loss.

Unlike other games, when units are properly led, some (but never all) of the lost cohesion can be regained, depending on how successful the (in this case, the battalion's) leadersip is in regaining lost control over the men.

Combat results are expressed in terms of loss of cohesion. The higher the loss, the less thay can do as a general rule. The combat tables also allow for such a unit with low cohesion,to have the ability to deliver a nasty enough sting to see the battle see-saw if your opponent does not keep the pressure on. Combat is the based upon getting your enemy to give up ground- NOT annihilation. As long as a unit remains on the table, it remains a force that must be dealt with and driven off.

In playtest, it works quite well once the gamers understand what is being represented. Because the mechanics are straight forward and simple, more units can be on the table and events resolved quickly. Not too many instances where units cross bayonets as one side or the other either falls back or totally loses cohesion and is removed, leaving a gap for the enemy to exploit if he has fresh forces nearby.

As I get time, I edit what I have. I have been working on these concepts and rules since about 1998. Since I have been here in Germany, I have been making decent progress (compared to when i was in the States) and hope to have all my notes and current charts in one document soon.

While this may not be what you are looking for, we share the same end result in what we would like to see deployed on a table with our smaller scale figures and enjoy the visual aspects more.

Tom Dye

arthur181531 Mar 2014 2:52 p.m. PST

May I suggest Napoleonic Command 2 by Jeffrey Knudsen, aka War Artisan. See his website for details and a worked example of combat.

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2014 3:05 p.m. PST

I second Napoleonic Command (now 2) by Jeff Knudsen. He has some interesting ideas that seem to work very well.

Glenn Pearce31 Mar 2014 3:40 p.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

"The 60mm x 30mm base is almost the standard for 6mm gaming.

It is? What other rules systems use it?"

It's not so much that other rule systems use it. It's simply a matter of volume. Baccus6mm is a major (if not the) player in the 6mm world. Their biggest base seller is the 60x30. You see these bases everywhere there are 6mm figures, including ebay, etc. Having been in the 6mm world for over 35 years I can tell you there is no other base size that even comes close to this in numbers. It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.

Best regards,

Glenn

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP31 Mar 2014 4:51 p.m. PST

I base all my 6mm on 20mm wide bases. I use steel so they can be used with stand-removal games, but put on magnetic movement trays for other rules systems either for 60x30 or the 3x3 of Grande Armee. Plus the Baccus strips are 20mm wide…

Sparker31 Mar 2014 6:22 p.m. PST

Sparker,
These rules by Sam have been on the works for some time now with now indication of when. has this changed?

MG

Yes! Sam has recently been dropping broad hints on his forum that there has been a breakthrough and Bluckher is now #1 or 2 on the slipway…

Grignotage31 Mar 2014 7:24 p.m. PST

Thanks for all the detailed replies! I am looking forward to Blucher, as I've enjoyed the previous games in the series.

I sent an email to Knudsen to purchase Napoleonic Command. I've considered trying to write rules that emphasize "pressure" and gradual erosion of unit cohesion, which sounds like exactly what that game does.

I'll give Polemos a look soon too. Many of the 6mm figures I have are Baccus.

Thanks again for the responses.

le Grande Quartier General31 Mar 2014 8:38 p.m. PST

Frontage, Frontage, frontages- Thats what matters in scale/basing.

Gozzaoz01 Apr 2014 3:52 a.m. PST

@le Grande Quartier General

Precisely, It's the biggest issue I have with some rulesets.
Largish battles played with 28mm figures at battalion level are the worst offenders. Minis look great, ground scale seems a little messed up.

surdu200501 Apr 2014 6:18 a.m. PST

There was a recent review of Fate of Battle. That sounds lik it might be to your liking.

bgbboogie01 Apr 2014 7:05 a.m. PST

I have rebased all mine….3 ranks of 6 each stand = 1 company….my corps looks like a unit now.

I have given up on rules and use my own or WRG.

M

davbenbak01 Apr 2014 8:50 a.m. PST

I played Orders to Eagles at a convention and would highly recommend it as a grand tactical game. I myself am drawn to the Napoleonic period because of the tactics used so it took me a few turns to get used to not worrying about deploying skirmishers or changing to line. The game I played used two D10 to roll percentage outcomes but I am told the have worked out a 2D6 version that plays even quicker. They have a yahoo site. Perhaps if I have time later I can post the link.

Mike Petro01 Apr 2014 6:35 p.m. PST

I just finished a playtest of my home grown rules last night. They can be multiple base per battalion or a single stand(with a couple minor adjustments).

Think of Piquet, March Attack, and Polemos had a baby.

I will post the rules here shortly(this year), after more playtesting. But they do look promising.

In short, write your own. I owned over 25 sets of Napoleonic rules and never cared for any in whole. So, I just took the best mechanics from all of them, and mashed them together until they worked.

Bandit01 Apr 2014 8:00 p.m. PST

Grignotage,

I've been developing a set over the last handful of years. I'm currently working towards an external beta for testing. One base is one battalion (or a group of squadrons, or a battery). Ground scale is playable at either 1" = 75 yards or 1" = 150 yards using any scale figures (2mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 20mm… heck you could use 28mm if you really wanted). Players command a corps (typically) and issue orders to divisions.

If you're interested in knowing more about them drop me a line either via a PM on here or e-mail to public@falcontechnologies.org.

Cheers,

The Bandit

le Grande Quartier General01 Apr 2014 9:04 p.m. PST

Before you over-complicate the basing, take a look at the Carnage & Glory rules Nigel Marsh has developed. I use them for my 6mm battles within campaign..have a look. link

MajorB02 Apr 2014 2:44 a.m. PST

You see these bases everywhere there are 6mm figures, including ebay, etc. Having been in the 6mm world for over 35 years I can tell you there is no other base size that even comes close to this in numbers. It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.

I have to disagree. I don't see 60x30 bases everywhere. None of my 6mm figures are on 60x30 bases and I can't recall that any other wargamers I know have 6mm figures on 60x30 bases.

My own 6mm Napoleonics are on 20mm bases. This gives me a great deal of flexibility. I can form units of 1 or more bases for my own home grown Napoleonic rules, Black Powder, Grande Armee, Commands & Colors, FOG(N) or pretty much any other Napoleonic rules that take my fancy.

Glenn Pearce02 Apr 2014 11:34 a.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

If your not seeing 60x30 everywhere I can only conclude your not looking outside of your circle of friends. The Baccus site is full of them, it's a major seller for them. Photos I see on line from other collectors, sellers on ebay, 6mm forums, etc. are all full of them.

Certainly other base sizes are out there, but none are anywhere near as popular as 60x30.

I've not yet been aware of a rule set where you can't use them. Some might require a couple of minor adjustments that actually often make the rules simpler.

I have been using them for about 10 years now and have never had a flexibility problem.

People are using them for all infantry/cavalry periods not just Napoleonic's. So if your scope is limited to just Napoleonic's then I can understand why you may have not noticed the rise in popularity of the 60x30 base.

Best regards,

Glenn

Whirlwind02 Apr 2014 1:03 p.m. PST

The wisdom of the TMP crowd was called for on this subject a while back:

TMP link

TMP link

Regards

Glenn Pearce02 Apr 2014 1:39 p.m. PST

Hello Whirlwind!

Not so sure about those, I did not partake in either and it appears not that many did. You also have to consider that TMP does not attract a lot of 6mm players. Still on the one poll they were second which certainly seems to support what I'm saying.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB02 Apr 2014 2:08 p.m. PST

People are using them for all infantry/cavalry periods not just Napoleonic's. So if your scope is limited to just Napoleonic's then I can understand why you may have not noticed the rise in popularity of the 60x30 base.

Nope. My scope is not limited to just Napoleonics. I wargame in most historical periods and SF. I have quite a wide circle of wargaming contacts as well as following a number of wargaming sites and blogs. I don't recall seeing anyone using 60x30 bases for any games, let alone 6mm. Apart from the Polemos series of games, I do not know of any rules that mandate a 60x30 base size. There are several games that suggest a 60mm frontage, but not with a 30mm depth. 60mm wide bases are much more commonly 20mm, 40mm or 60mm deep. 30x30 is a very common base size for 15mm figures though. For example, nearly all the RAFM games use the 30x30 size which of course means that your 60x30 bases wouldn't work with those.

In the 2nd thread above linked to by Whirlwind, only 2 people said they use 60x30 and both of those said they use the Polemos rules by Mr. Berry.

The Baccus site is full of them, it's a major seller for them.

That doesn't mean of course that they are the most popular size, as the TMP poll linked to above shows.

Obviously you live on a different planet to me …

MajorB02 Apr 2014 2:09 p.m. PST

It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.

Not true. My 20mm wide bases will match with your 60mm bases. I just need to group them in 3s. However, your 60mm bases will not match with mine …

1815Guy02 Apr 2014 2:19 p.m. PST

I also disagree with base size claims. There are a LOT of armies based for Volley and bayonet or grande armee, and I ve seen almost as many 6mm troops on naps battles basing. This lstter basing can be used with possibly the widest choice of rule sets.

Polymos is nowhere, and a very limited set in play.

Glenn Pearce02 Apr 2014 4:32 p.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

"I have quite a wide circle of wargaming contacts as well as following a number of wargaming sites and blogs. I don't recall seeing anyone using 60x30 bases for any games, let alone 6mm."

My comments only pertain to 6mm. I've seen tons of different base sizes used for 6mm, but clearly the most common one is 60x30. What is the most common one that you have seen and where?

"Apart from the Polemos series of games, I do not know of any rules that mandate a 60x30 base size."

Exactly, that's because it's probably the only 6mm series of rules designed for 6mm figures. It's fully supported by probably the biggest seller of 6mm figures in the world. Does anybody else market and support a different 6mm base size?

"There are several games that suggest a 60mm frontage, but not with a 30mm depth."

In 6mm, if so which ones are they?

"60mm wide bases are much more commonly 20mm, 40mm or 60mm deep."

And apply to which 6mm rules?

"30x30 is a very common base size for 15mm figures though."

My comments never pertained or even mentioned 15mm.

"For example, nearly all the RAFM games use the 30x30 size which of course means that your 60x30 bases wouldn't work with those."

Not true, some people have amended rules to say that a 60x30 base is simply two 30x30 bases.

"In the 2nd thread above linked to by Whirlwind, only 2 people said they use 60x30 and both of those said they use the Polemos rules by Mr. Berry."

And the base sizes that were more popular where? And how many people used them?

"The Baccus site is full of them, it's a major seller for them.
That doesn't mean of course that they are the most popular size, as the TMP poll linked to above shows."

You seem to have ignored the fact that probably the biggest 6mm figure seller in the world pushes this base. I don't think the other sellers even have a base that they push.

I've explained the fact that the TMP is not a haven for 6mm collectors. It's poll is completely worthless, but even so 60x30 was second. And your base size was where?

"Obviously you live on a different planet to me …"

Apparently!

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce02 Apr 2014 4:52 p.m. PST

Hello 1815Guy

"I also disagree with base size claims. There are a LOT of armies based for Volley and bayonet or grande armee"

Not sure what your saying here. The 60x30 base and it's cousin the 60x60 base is used for V&B and GA.

"and I ve seen almost as many 6mm troops on naps battles basing."

Not sure what your saying here either. If your just looking at one set of none 6mm rules and see lots of 6mm figures being based to match the rules that's nice, but it's hardly a bellwether of a basing standard for 6mm figures.

"This lstter basing can be used with possibly the widest choice of rule sets."

Sorry but again I have no idea about which base size you are referring to.

"Polymos is nowhere, and a very limited set in play."

I assume you mean Polemos which is probably the number one selling set of 6mm rules. It has it's own Yahoo Group! Do you know of a better selling 6mm rule set? If so please let me know what it is?

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce02 Apr 2014 4:59 p.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

"Not true. My 20mm wide bases will match with your 60mm bases. I just need to group them in 3s. However, your 60mm bases will not match with mine …"

Not true, I just have to say that my base matches three of yours. Mine are also easier to move, collect, store, set up, take down and transport.

Best regards,

Glenn

138SquadronRAF Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2014 6:55 p.m. PST

20mm wide bases will work well with the Napoleonic Command rules.

Bandit02 Apr 2014 7:30 p.m. PST

Has the conversation really become, "My base is better than your base!" cause I mean, wow [blink, blink]… wow.

Cheers,

The Bandit

MajorB03 Apr 2014 2:16 a.m. PST

"I have quite a wide circle of wargaming contacts as well as following a number of wargaming sites and blogs. I don't recall seeing anyone using 60x30 bases for any games, let alone 6mm."

My comments only pertain to 6mm. I've seen tons of different base sizes used for 6mm, but clearly the most common one is 60x30. What is the most common one that you have seen and where?

40x20. For DBA and other DB* derivatives. The DB* series of games are FAR more widely uswed than Polemos ever will be.

"Apart from the Polemos series of games, I do not know of any rules that mandate a 60x30 base size."

Exactly, that's because it's probably the only 6mm series of rules designed for 6mm figures. It's fully supported by probably the biggest seller of 6mm figures in the world.

You seem to persist in the delusion that rules have to be designed with a specific size of figure in mind. This is aboslute;y not true. A large proportion of wargames rules (I exclude skirmish games for obvious reasons) will work with any size of figure and often say so in the text.

Does anybody else market and support a different 6mm base size?

Yes. Loads of base manufacturers (Warbases is but one example) market a whole range of base sizes.

"There are several games that suggest a 60mm frontage, but not with a 30mm depth."

In 6mm, if so which ones are they?

DBA for one. I won't bore you with a long list.

"60mm wide bases are much more commonly 20mm, 40mm or 60mm deep."

And apply to which 6mm rules?

As I have said above, the notion that there are "6mm rules" is completely errorneous.

"30x30 is a very common base size for 15mm figures though."

My comments never pertained or even mentioned 15mm.

"For example, nearly all the RAFM games use the 30x30 size which of course means that your 60x30 bases wouldn't work with those."

Not true, some people have amended rules to say that a 60x30 base is simply two 30x30 bases.

You miss the point. The RAFM series of games are designed by Peter Pig and primarily use 15mm figures because that is the size PP make. However, you can easily play RAFM games with 6mm figures, because the important thing is the BASE SIZE not the size of figure. Yes, up to a point you can use 60x30 bases by counting them as 2 bases, but you have to have a method of indicating that this particular double base is actually only 1 base and it gets more tricky if if need a unit with an odd number of bases.

"In the 2nd thread above linked to by Whirlwind, only 2 people said they use 60x30 and both of those said they use the Polemos rules by Mr. Berry."

And the base sizes that were more popular where? And how many people used them?

The most popular is 40x20. Read the thread for the details of how people use them (although in a number of cases they don't say).

"The Baccus site is full of them, it's a major seller for them.
That doesn't mean of course that they are the most popular size, as the TMP poll linked to above shows."

You seem to have ignored the fact that probably the biggest 6mm figure seller in the world pushes this base. I don't think the other sellers even have a base that they push.

No, the other sellers don't have a base size the "push". Simply because there is such a WIDE VARIETY of rules out there with all manner of different base sizes that it would be invidious to do so. The ONLY reason why Baccus "push" the 60x30 base is becasue that is the size used in his Polemos rules series. Incidentally, do have access to Pete Berry's sales figures?

I've explained the fact that the TMP is not a haven for 6mm collectors. It's poll is completely worthless, but even so 60x30 was second. And your base size was where?

40x20, the most popular in the TMP poll. Yes my bases are 20mm wide, but that means I can use them to play games where bases need to be 20mm wide or 40 or 60 or 80 …
Flexibility is the key. The bigger the base the less flexibility you have.

MajorB03 Apr 2014 2:21 a.m. PST

Not true. My 20mm wide bases will match with your 60mm bases. I just need to group them in 3s. However, your 60mm bases will not match with mine …"

Not true, I just have to say that my base matches three of yours.

No, your 60mm bases will not match with mine because my rules require 20mm wide bases. Your bases also do not work with DBN or FOG(N) for example, where 40mm is the required witdh.

Mine are also easier to move, collect, store, set up, take down and transport.

Rubbish. You might gain a few seconds on the time taken to get your troops out of the box an on to the table, but in all other respects the base size makes no difference at all to the collection, storage or transport.

daler240D03 Apr 2014 4:44 a.m. PST

I third Napoleonic Command 2nd Ed.with 20mm bases. It is an elegant and thoughtful ruleset.

Glenn Pearce03 Apr 2014 6:37 a.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

"No, your 60mm bases will not match with mine because my rules require 20mm wide bases. Your bases also do not work with DBN or FOG(N) for example, where 40mm is the required witdh."

As I said, I'm not aware of any rule set that can't be used. In some cases you simply have to change a rule or two. Honestly I would not want to play a game with 20mm wide bases as it's a clear indication of "Old School" design which bores me to death. I seem to recall people telling me that they do use their 60x30 bases for both DBN and FOG(N). Why is a different base size an insurmountable problem?

"Mine are also easier to move, collect, store, set up, take down and transport.
Rubbish. You might gain a few seconds on the time taken to get your troops out of the box an on to the table, but in all other respects the base size makes no difference at all to the collection, storage or transport."

This is something that we spent a great deal of time studying. Now if you have a small collection and only play small games then your correct.

We generally play large games with over 200 bases on the table. Simple math here means using your bases that's 600 bases. You gain a lot more then a few seconds. Every turn you save at least 5 minutes. Set up and take down time is easily reduced by half. Transporting the heavier bases means less chance of movement. When I had my figures on small bases similar yours it was not uncommon to open the box and see a mumble jumble of figures. It's a now a very rare occurrence.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce03 Apr 2014 7:19 a.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

"40x20. For DBA and other DB* derivatives. The DB* series of games are FAR more widely uswed than Polemos ever will be."

Fair enough, I would guess that perhaps 40x20 is the second most popular. I would not sell Polemos short. It's clearly growing and has been since it's inception.

"You seem to persist in the delusion that rules have to be designed with a specific size of figure in mind. This is aboslute;y not true. A large proportion of wargames rules (I exclude skirmish games for obvious reasons) will work with any size of figure and often say so in the text."

Not true at all, even Polemos states different scales and base sizes can be used.

"Does anybody else market and support a different 6mm base size?
Yes. Loads of base manufacturers (Warbases is but one example) market a whole range of base sizes."

I think you missed my point. I'm talking about a single base size.

"As I have said above, the notion that there are "6mm rules" is completely errorneous."

Uh? When the seller states "designed for 6mm", what do you think that means?

"You miss the point. The RAFM series of games are designed by Peter Pig and primarily use 15mm figures because that is the size PP make."

So you can have 15mm designed games but not 6mm?

"However, you can easily play RAFM games with 6mm figures, because the important thing is the BASE SIZE not the size of figure. Yes, up to a point you can use 60x30 bases by counting them as 2 bases, but you have to have a method of indicating that this particular double base is actually only 1 base and it gets more tricky if if need a unit with an odd number of bases."

All I can tell you is people do use 60x30 bases to play these games and have managed to overcome all the problems.

"No, the other sellers don't have a base size the "push". Simply because there is such a WIDE VARIETY of rules out there with all manner of different base sizes that it would be invidious to do so. The ONLY reason why Baccus "push" the 60x30 base is becasue that is the size used in his Polemos rules series."

Exactly, that's my point. The "wide variety of rules" dictates it's impossible for one base size to become dominate. Unless somebody is pushing one.

"Incidentally, do have access to Pete Berry's sales figures?" No, but I would like to have his income!

"I've explained the fact that the TMP is not a haven for 6mm collectors. It's poll is completely worthless, but even so 60x30 was second. And your base size was where?

Yes my bases are 20mm wide"

You did not answer my question?

"I can use them to play games where bases need to be 20mm wide or 40 or 60 or 80 …"

I've now said it many times, I'm not aware of a game that can't be played using a 60x30 base.

"Flexibility is the key. The bigger the base the less flexibility you have."

I've never encountered a flexibility problem with 60x30 bases. So this statement is completely meaningless to me.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB03 Apr 2014 11:37 a.m. PST

Fair enough, I would guess that perhaps 40x20 is the second most popular. I would not sell Polemos short. It's clearly growing and has been since it's inception.

I reckon it's got a pretty long way to go to catch up …
What's the total print run of the Polemos rules?
Compare that to the total print run of all the versions of DBA, DBR, DBN, DBM, DBMM, HOTT and I think you'll find he's some way behind.

Uh? When the seller states "designed for 6mm", what do you think that means?

"designed for" doesn't mean you can ONLY use that scale.
You demolish your own argument here:

Not true at all, even Polemos states different scales and base sizes can be used.

Exactly, that's my point. The "wide variety of rules" dictates it's impossible for one base size to become dominate. Unless somebody is pushing one.

This I think is the nub of the situation. You seem to think that Baccus are "pushing" a base size of 60x30. Please tell me where on their web site they say so?

You are obviously a fan of that particular size, however your claim that:

I can tell you there is no other base size that even comes close to this in numbers.

is clearly unproven.

Your original statement:

It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.

You yourself have demonstrated that this is also clearly untrue. As you said above:

it's impossible for one base size to become dominate.

MajorB03 Apr 2014 11:50 a.m. PST

You seem to think that Baccus are "pushing" a base size of 60x30. Please tell me where on their web site they say so?

In fact, far from "pushing" the 60x30 base size, Pete Berry actually says this on his web site:

"The other guiding principle is that we know that the worst possible thing that a set of new rules can do is to ask a new user to rebase all their existing miniatures in order to play them. We can assure anyone looking at these for the first time, that Polemos, as if by magic, will allow for any basing scheme to be used provided both armies use the same system." (my emphasis)
link

Glenn Pearce03 Apr 2014 12:40 p.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

I think I've clearly stated that Polemos can use most basing schemes and any figure scale. What is your problem with that?

"I reckon it's got a pretty long way to go to catch up …
What's the total print run of the Polemos rules?
Compare that to the total print run of all the versions of DBA, DBR, DBN, DBM, DBMM, HOTT and I think you'll find he's some way behind."

The sale of these rules are aimed at other scales. Your trying to compare apples to oranges.

"designed for" doesn't mean you can ONLY use that scale."

I never said you couldn't use other scales. I've clearly stated you can.

"You demolish your own argument here:
Not true at all, even Polemos states different scales and base sizes can be used."

Should I repeat this?

"This I think is the nub of the situation. You seem to think that Baccus are "pushing" a base size of 60x30. Please tell me where on their web site they say so?"

Do you see any none Polemos related bases for sale? Do you see any other rules for sale that don't use those bases? If your looking for some sort of big neon sign, it's not there.

"You are obviously a fan of that particular size, however your claim that:
I can tell you there is no other base size that even comes close to this in numbers.
is clearly unproven."

I never disputed that. But if it's not, what base size is and what proof do you offer?

"Your original statement:
It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.
You yourself have demonstrated that this is also clearly untrue. As you said above:
it's impossible for one base size to become dominate."

Really, taking my comments out of context to make a false statement.

Sorry, but I'm really lost at where your going with this. I've simply stated my views based on my observations of the hobby from a 6mm point of view. I've been actively in the hobby for over 40 years now. I have been a hard core 6mm fan for over 35 years. I've seen every type of basing possible (I think). About 20 years ago I noticed the apparent growth of the 60x30 base (IMHO) and that it seemed to be as a direct result of the growth of Baccus. Today I don't see another base size that compares with the number of those that use 60x30. That's simply my view. Can I prove it, of course not. You don't agree that's fine.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB03 Apr 2014 1:19 p.m. PST

I think I've clearly stated that Polemos can use most basing schemes and any figure scale. What is your problem with that?

I don't have a problem with that. You're the one with the problem, since you insist that the only size of base worth using is 60x30.

The sale of these rules are aimed at other scales. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

As we have already agreed, rules are size agnostic (including Polemos) so dismissing these rules because they are "aimed at other scales" is pointless.

Do you see any none Polemos related bases for sale? Do you see any other rules for sale that don't use those bases? If you're looking for some sort of big neon sign, it's not there.

No, because, as you have to agree, Polemos will work with any base size.

"You are obviously a fan of that particular size, however your claim that:
I can tell you there is no other base size that even comes close to this in numbers.

is clearly unproven."

I never disputed that.

This makes no sense. First you state "no other base size even comes close" then you say that you never disputed that the statement is unproven. Eh? Either your statement is true or it isn't. The onus is on you to prove it.

"Your original statement:
It's clearly reached the point that if your figures aren't on these bases your collection will be difficult to match up with others.
You yourself have demonstrated that this is also clearly untrue. As you said above:
it's impossible for one base size to become dominate."

Really, taking my comments out of context to make a false statement.

How is that taking your comments out of context?
First you say that it will be difficult to match up with others unless you use a 60x30 base. Then you say it's impossible for one base size to dominate. The second statement defeats the first.

Sorry, but I'm really lost at where you're going with this. I've simply stated my views based on my observations of the hobby from a 6mm point of view. … Can I prove it, of course not. You don't agree that's fine.

So if you make a statement that is clearly unsupportable, how do you expect anyone to take your views seriously?

Glenn Pearce03 Apr 2014 4:43 p.m. PST

Hello Major Bumsore!

Obviously your not understanding what I'm saying and not seeing what your doing. So let me try one last time to go over this.

I'm claiming that the most popular base used by 6mm players today is the 60x30 base.

I have come to that conclusion simply by observation, acquired by being a hard core 6mm player for over 35 years. I certainly have no proof, as you don't either that I'm wrong.

There are however, some undeniable facts that you have chosen to deny, ignore and twist. Just for humor I'll go over them as well as a few new ones.

1)Baccus sells and supports this base. If you have any doubts about this please just contact them. I'm not aware of any other 6mm manufacturer that does this.

2)The Polemos rule set that was designed for this base has a pretty good following that is growing, with it's own Yahoo Group. The majority of the members use this base. You could almost say the base has it's own Yahoo Group.

3)This base is clearly used by other 6mm players as well. A simple web search will turn up pictures.

4)Recently an American group launched an ACW 6mm rule set that exclusively uses Baccus figures and bases. If you need details just let me know.

5)The only survey discovered was a poorly executed one on TMP that is not very popular with most 6mm players. Still this base came up second. Which indicates that at the least my powers of observation are not too far off the mark.

Now what have you offered to dispute my claim? 15mm rules! You have not even stated another base size that you think is more popular, why and how do you support it.

There have been a very large number of people that have taken my views seriously. If your not one of them that's okay by me.

Best regards,

Glenn

MajorB04 Apr 2014 2:08 a.m. PST

I'm claiming that the most popular base used by 6mm players today is the 60x30 base.

I have come to that conclusion simply by observation, acquired by being a hard core 6mm player for over 35 years. I certainly have no proof, as you don't either that I'm wrong.

Got it in a nutshell, my friend. You make a bald statement that clearly cannot be proved. You only offer anecdotal evidence in support of it. All that waffle about Polemos "supporting" the base is just that waffle. Of course they sell 60x30 bases, it is the preferred size for their Polemos rules!

TMP that is not very popular with most 6mm players. Still this base came up second. Which indicates that at the least my powers of observation are not too far off the mark.

You have no evidence that TMP is not very popular with 6mm players. You are here and I am here and there appear to be at least 370 others (see below). You can only measure popularity if you know firstly, how many 6mm players there are in the world and secondly how many of them are on TMP. Without that, your popularity statement is just speculation.

By your own admission the 40x20 base appears to be the most popular even though the poll can only be considered a straw poll and does not necessarily reflect the totality of experience.

In that TMP poll 374 people voted for a particular size of base (I have ignored the 129 who said they don't play 6mm). Of that 374, only 44 voted for 60x30, 62 voted for 40x20 with a fair spread across a wide variety of other sizes. What we don't know of course is how many 6mm players there are in the world and therefore we have no way of knowing if 374 is a statistically significant sample.

There have been a very large number of people that have taken my views seriously. If you're not one of them that's okay by me.

By my reckoning, 7 people in this thread have espoused bases sizes other than 60x30. In fact the only person strongly in favour of 60x30 is …. YOU.

Now what have you offered to dispute my claim?

It is not up to me to provide proof that you are wrong, it is up to you to provide evidence that you are right. And by that I don't mean the anecdotal evidence from you above. By your own admission you cannot prove your statement.

Therefore it is ONLY your opinion. It is NOT a statement of fact.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to mine. IN MY OPINION the most popular base size for 6mm figures is 40x20. I have come to that opinion simply by observation, acquired by being a 6mm player for over 37 years. No, I cannot prove it. But let's be honest with each other and the rest of the world they are ONLY opinions.

Glenn Pearce05 Apr 2014 12:21 p.m. PST

Hello my good friend Major Bumsore!

Sorry that I was not able to respond to you sooner, but I was off strengthening the 60x30 strangle hold grip on the 6mm word.

"All that waffle about Polemos "supporting" the base is just that waffle. Of course they sell 60x30 bases, it is the preferred size for their Polemos rules!"

Again you greatly underestimate the power and influence of Polemos on the 6mm world. I can give you a lot more on this later perhaps, but for now lets move on.

"You have no evidence that TMP is not very popular with 6mm players. You are here and I am here and there appear to be at least 370 others (see below). You can only measure popularity if you know firstly, how many 6mm players there are in the world and secondly how many of them are on TMP. Without that, your popularity statement is just speculation."

Of course it is just speculation, but do you honestly think there are only 370 6mm players in the world?

"By your own admission the 40x20 base appears to be the most popular even though the poll can only be considered a straw poll and does not necessarily reflect the totality of experience."

I only admitted the 40x20 base was the most popular in the "straw poll".

"It is not up to me to provide proof that you are wrong, it is up to you to provide evidence that you are right. And by that I don't mean the anecdotal evidence from you above."

Who's rules are those?

"By your own admission you cannot prove your statement.
Therefore it is ONLY your opinion. It is NOT a statement of fact.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to mine. IN MY OPINION the most popular base size for 6mm figures is 40x20. I have come to that opinion simply by observation, acquired by being a 6mm player for over 37 years. No, I cannot prove it. But let's be honest with each other and the rest of the world they are ONLY opinions."

Why do I have to prove anything? Our entire hobby is based on opinions. Which rules, figures, scales do we like. The TMP is a forum who's cornerstone is opinions! That's why we are here to express our opinions and learn from others opinions. To share our opinions!

Now in your opinion 40x20 is more popular, but you don't even have any "anecdotal evidence". So in my opinion, you lose.

Best regards,

Glenn

Bandit05 Apr 2014 12:36 p.m. PST

You guys have different opinions √

Is there a step two?

Cheers,

The Bandit

Glenn Pearce05 Apr 2014 1:16 p.m. PST

Yes, but you have to wait for it.

Bandit05 Apr 2014 1:57 p.m. PST

Well, the "debate" between your preferred opinions has been going on for 4-5 days now, I'm not saying you two have to agree but if I was the original poster I'd be kinda sad my thread ran off this direction.

Cheers,

The Bandit

MajorB06 Apr 2014 5:57 a.m. PST

"All that waffle about Polemos "supporting" the base is just that waffle. Of course they sell 60x30 bases, it is the preferred size for their Polemos rules!"

Again you greatly underestimate the power and influence of Polemos on the 6mm world. I can give you a lot more on this later perhaps, but for now lets move on.

How do you measure "power and influence"?

Of course it is just speculation, but do you honestly think there are only 370 6mm players in the world?

No, of course not. Please read what I wrote:

What we don't know of course is how many 6mm players there are in the world and therefore we have no way of knowing if 374 is a statistically significant sample.

Perhaps you are not familar with the meaning of "statistically significant"?

Why do I have to prove anything? Our entire hobby is based on opinions. Which rules, figures, scales do we like. The TMP is a forum who's cornerstone is opinions! That's why we are here to express our opinions and learn from others opinions. To share our opinions!

Finally, a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with. I do not understand why it has taken you so long to admit that we both have opinions, and that those opinions cannot be proved and therefore must remain ONLY opinions and not statements of fact. You offered an opinion (although couched in factual terms) and I gave a different opinion. Why then did you attack my opinion as if I had uttered some abominable blasphemy?

arthur181506 Apr 2014 2:28 p.m. PST

This conflict between the supporters of 60mm x 30mm and 40mm x 20mm makes the war between Lilliput and Blefescu over which end to break their eggs look quite rational…

Perhaps someone could produce a HotT game in which armies mounted on both base sizes confronted each other?

No wonder the Napoleonic Boards enjoy the reputation they do!

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