"Help me justify sci-fi in 15mm, 6mm and 3mm or not?" Topic

Help me justify sci-fi in 15mm, 6mm and 3mm or not!
I have a reasonably limited budget to spend on my wargaming. I already have planned for this year a 10mm AWI army and a few starships to buy, a little 15mm fantasy and 15mm modern zombie occult wars but my main area is 15mm sci-fi. However I have been tempted in to 6mm sci-fi and have even bought some 3mm samples. My question is: can I justify doing sci-fi in 6mm and 3mm as well as 15mm? I have no one but myself to justify this to. IS it worth having terrain in 3 scales and do I duplicate 3 armies. One is at skirmish, platoon level. One at company level (6mm). And one is at divisional or army level(3mm). Is this silly? Is it a waste of money; when I could put more into just 15mm? I want the group consciousness of TMP help me make a decision.

I have just had the same quandary.
What i have done i go 6mm in fantasy, ancients,napoleonic ACW etc, so pretty much everything in 6mm :)
But i had a lot of 15mm scifi so decided to stay with 15mm for scifi.
The reason i decided to go with one scale(size) is that i only need one set of scenery (with odd bits relative to period/genre.
The reason i went with 6mm for most is that if i want to do a different period, its a cheap buy in for me , and if anyone at the club wants to "have a go", its a cheap buy in for them too.

I have SF in 3, 6, 15, and 28mm. The 28mm is solely for skirmish games while the 3mm is for what I term Division level. By that I mean the bases represent Battalions. 6 mm is for skirmish and company size games. Most of the 15mm stuff is used as small sized races for 28mm. There is no cohesion in my 15mm stuff. It is kind of the orphaned step child of my stuff. Ground scale is important to me. 28mm in open areas requires too large an area to have ground scale look right. It also does not lend itself to a lot of vehicles on the table. The figures do look good however and I skirmish in spaceship corridors or in the confines of part of a city block (2-3 buildings). 6mm gets squads of infantry on the table with a few vehicles. They are either individually mounted for skirmishes or mounted in groups representing fire teams and squads. There is really not much difference in my games rules for squad level and skirmish games. It is all about presentation. 3mm is where you get the sweep of huge armored formations and companies of troops moving across a large area.

I am not sure if I would change things were I to be starting over. Each scale has a presence that I like for certain things. Since I really like small miniatures though I would go first with 6mm because of the wide range of figures available and second with 3mm just because I like small stuff. 15mm could substitute for 28mm but starts to push my perception of proper ground scale for most uses.

I think people in general see 6mm as not being that detailed and as such not suitable for skirmish games, in which you want more 'characterful' models.
15mm used to be thought of in that way.
Go back not too far and 15mm was massed battle approved.
But now 15mm is I would say the go to 'scale' for skirmish games.

6mm has come a long way of late, and is not just about having hordes of poorly painted figures marching across a green piece of cloth on your dining table.
6mm can have detail, it can have character and it is suitable for skirmish.

Right now 15mm gives you more choice of models.
It also gives you more choice of people to play with.
But 15mm would struggle for massed battles unless your budget is large and your table larger.
15mm is the most costly of the 'scales' too, in terms of money and time to paint etc.

Go 6mm, you can skirmish and you can play big battles, all with the same models.
It is cheaper, it will be quicker to build up lots of different factions, you can use a smaller table, you can buy enough factions that you can ready made forces for others to use, the ability to have more 'epic' terrain is great and 6mm rules.

Size Matters

angelbarracks.co.uk

With 3mm SciFi being such a recent addition to the table so to speak. Apart from the old irregular stuff I think its a bit early yet but I think it will take off especially in conjunction with 6mm for larger tanks and flyers etc

I go with 6mm for virtually everything, although I've begin to dabble in 28mm for skirmish gaming over the last year or two. My wife enjoys playing SoB&H and Ludus Gladiatorius in 28mm, and it gives us an excuse to play with the Hirst Arts molds (which are ideal for 28mm), so that works well for us. For anything else, though, 6mm.

Doug

I am having this same argument with myself.

I do squad to platoon level games at 15mm, but I have been really tempted to buy into 6mm or even 3mm for larger games.

Ok, so far from what has been said I am leaning towards 15mm (which I have a large investment in and Just love) and 6mm. Keep it coming chaps its interesting to hear what you all think.

The real advantage of 3mm is twofold: it takes up little space and is cheap.

Given this, it is something of a "bonus" scale. 50USD will get you enough for two armies in most systems. You can store them in a cigar box or two. You can play them on your kitchen table.

So unless you are so poor that you cannot spend 50 bucks, there is no reason NOT to invest in 3 mm if you like sci fi. It gives you a great travelling game that can be ported in a backpack or set up on the coffee table while the wife is watching Mad Men. It is an adjunct to other scales.

That said, MIchael is right when he says it is not an ideal scalef or skirmish play. I'd go 6mm myself for skirmish but there aren't that many manufacturers that appeal to me. AB does great stuff if you like an britsh comics circa 1980 look to your game. I like a more hard near future look, however.

So I am looking at O8 and Khurasan's 15mm line, but I don't know if I have the space for them…

For me with 3mm ( for all periods) some lovely terrain is starting to come out especially from Brigade and while I know they are designed for Aeronef and Land Ironclads they do fit in perfectly with the OO 3mm stuff

There is a surprising amount of inexpensive 3mm SF stuff if you look around. I have several varieties of vehicles and walkers from the various Risk games and the StarCraft and Twilight Imperium board games. O8s infantry can be used for a lot of SF armies. Aircraft can be had from plastic toys auction 3D6407318889750125779&_qi=RTM1562569, small scale stuff in the Iron Wind Metals micro fighters line link and Silent Death miniatures from Metal Express.

Michael (Angel Barracks) is correct that the 6mm infantry does not offer quite the same amount of "character" for skirmishing that 15mm does. I really see little difference in the "character" levels of current 15mm and 28mm SF figures. 6mm vehicles however have sufficient detail for any gaming IMHO.

AB does great stuff if you like an britsh comics circa 1980 look to your game

Do you think?
I had not really seen that.
I am not offended at all, just surprised…
It would make sense though seeing as 2000AD was my childhood comic of choice!

<Trying not to hijack thread so if you want to e-mail replies that is cool>

Michael (Angel Barracks) is correct that the 6mm infantry does not offer quite the same amount of "character" for skirmishing that 15mm does

My bad, I think it can/does, sorry if I sounded contrary to that.
Some 6mm is made for skirmish and attention to detail is what they are about.
Others are just standard poses in minimal armour with limited details aimed at massed battles.
I would say the massed battles is by far the norm.
I think the better 6mm models do have that character that 15mm does.
However, the lack of choice is the problem as very few see 6mm as an infantry game, rather they see it as more of an armour game.

However, making characterful 6mm is certainly my aim.

Yeah the problem with 3mm and 6mm isn't the miniature cost, it is the terrain cost. I already have a fair chunk of money invested in my 15mm urban set-up, and I don't want to replicate that in smaller scale (even though I would love some urban mech dueling).

I started in 15mm SciFi, but AB's, and others, influence took me to 6mm. Now, I'm probably going to get into 3mm.

I do use 6mm for skirmish battles, but do think there's not quite as many "characters" available compared to 15mm or larger. However, I think that will probably change somewhat in the future.

As for terrain (hills/rocks), mine will probably be used for both 6mm & 3mm. Buildings & cities will have to be unique though.

Does this mean we will see a Strontium Dog or Rogue Trooper figures in 6mm soon then Michael?

Your figs take me straight to AD2000, Michael. They are full of character and you have conclusively shown that 6mm can indeed be used for skirmish gaming.

You've convinced me! I would TOTALLY do 6mm sci fi skirmishing, but unfortunately, I want a more hard-edged near modern look to my infantry. No one has yet come out with a 6mm line that tempts me enough.

Your 6mm Dark Star Venturan tank ALMOST brought me in, though. If only there were infantry to go with it, along the lines of O8's Neo-poles….

What about the new range from CinC?

link

Personally, I went with 15mm,but I'm doing Traveller and skirmish stuff so 15 or 20 figs is all I really need for any given 'battle', and less will usually do, (at least in Traveller). Between GZG, Khurasan and Rebel Minis alone, there is enough stuff out there to keep you busy indefinitely.

Terrain is where 3mm really shines. You can easily build entire cities out of plasticard. You can also spend 50 bucks and BUY a couple cities. Less than you'd pay for one big 15mm building.

But the easiest thing is just to buy old game bits off of Ebay and repurpose them as cities. Monopoly – in its many variants – is particualrly good for this.

I have a HUGE 3mm layout. I can cover a 6x4 table with terrain. It all fits in two hat boxes and two shoe boxes, plus the mat.

No, terrain ain't a problem. Making it and painting it is also fun and easy.

Again, 3mm is a bonus scale. You can do it IN SPITE of your other scales.

Its one drawback is that it is SO cheap and easy to collect that you can quickly acquire a lead mountain. I now have six plano boxes full of figs and I often buy O8 stuff just to have it. Frex, I now own enough Stryker to outfit a modern stryker brigade. Why not? It only cost 30 bucks! Hell, that is one GW 28mm fig! And they look so cool…!

Yeah, but what am I going to do with them? I guess I could do a stryker brigade… But what for?

So lead mountain creep is very easy in thiss cale. Beware!

CinC is too high tech and just a tad too cartoony, Steve.

Well first you might want to read these two threads I recently started:

TMP link

TMP link

As someone who once enjoyed GW's Epic there is considerable appeal to 6mm as you can have large battles that are at least the equivalent of modern regimental to brigade level. At 3mm you are talking all the way up to at least corps and if you really want to go all out army level. Personally I think 6mm is about as small as I would want to go.

As others have mentioned 3mm takes up little in the way of space and weight at least for the miniatures. However, at least to me the smaller you go the more critical your terrain has to be in particular if you want to have city or other urban built up area represented. Of course it is all relative as you could collect 3mm but only run it at regimental level and have a pretty small table area to play on. It all depends on what you really want to achieve for the games you want to run.

I am collecting and have run 15 mm science fiction games using Tomorrow's War as well as Star Grunt II and I enjoy the platoon to company level of play that comes with those games. I have considered collecting either 6mm or 3mm but as the two threads I posted above indicate I am trying to weed and limit the number of periods/genres/scales/sizes I collect. Storage of all this stuff is a factor I feel we as war game hobbyist think the least about.

Dark Realm miniatures…their human range is quite hard edged in its way

I see 3mm and 6mm as occupying the same niche. Big, massed armies, player as division commander or higher. For one example, I'm going to do Napoleonics in 3mm, very near 1:1 headcount. I'm still not sure how well the cavalry is going to work in terms of painting (horses are my bane in 15mm and 28mm).

That said, I'd go for whichever scale had the vehicle designs that I liked.

3mm and 6mm should be for large battles fought over a large area. I'd say either one would be great, but both might be redundant. I guess it depends on if you want to be fighting large-scale armor battles or not.

Yes, 3-6mm is good for operational level games, and generally weapons ranges are closer to being accurate, you can actually do a "maneuver" because of model/board size, etc. … Of course all I do is 6mm. 28mm should be used for platoon size skirmishs. 15mm for multiple platoon games. I have 6mm GW, Exodus Wars, DRM, CinC, Microworld, GZG, Old Crow and a few others in my force inventories. I highly recommend all of those. And if you are a 6mm Sci-fi player … wait for it … wait … wait … join the Tactical Command site !!!!!!!!!! �link And Zakalwe64 I have to disagree, I don't see CinC as "cartoony" … link link … now GW Orks … That's cartoony … link

And if you are a 6mm Sci-fi player … wait for it … wait … wait … join the Tactical Command site …

:D

3mm scifi is growing.

I recall a few years back when only Maksim and I were doing 10mm scifi. Now there is a whole game system in that scale. 3mm will get there. Shapeways has been a big help in that regard. You can use board game pieces and buildings as mentioned. Beads and blocks for structures. Monopoly City Skyscrapers, you name it. Your 6mm tank becomes a 3mm super heavy..maybe a BOLO.

You can run the gammut of full combined arms with all the table space it nets you. Within a year or so I foresee it being a stable niche. With support from Javelin98, Oddzial, Tumbling dice, and others…it will just continue growing as a scale.

Ok so far I am now thinking of staying 15mm skirmish as that is my main scale. And 6mm is catered for down the club with some terrain, though a bit more would be needed. SO I am looking set on 6mm as well. But I like the bonus scale argument. A game in a box to take away. Terrain that takes up one box and models all in an other. At the moment its looking like I may tag 3mm on as a little extra. Not spend to much on it; just get the odd few bits now and then as 3mm becomes more common. I have the same problem with my starship. I end up doing different scales. I think I have to face facts. I want to do it all. As Khurasan is looking at doing their marines in 6mm and Brigade and GZG do a lot of their stuff in both 15mm and 6mm, a bit of duplication is in order. That way I can fight using the same armies just at a different levels. The 3mm I think will be set in a different background as there is not much cross over in models. If anyone wants to add anything more I would be glad to hear more.

When Marcin finally finishes the 3mm Aliens line, I think I'll do a skirmish set, just to show it can be done.

Sorry Michael. You know I love 3 and 6mm but as you are wont to say, "size matters". Based on size the character aspect does not come through as well in the smaller scales. 6mm show their character well when photographed and shown at several times their normal size but on the table 15mm shows its character more.

Al

I am totally in 3 mm-1/600 for all my gaming. There are new models coming out each month so the availability and variety is growing. Robert

My 3 mm-1/600 Miniature Wargaming Yahoo Group
link

3mm_miniatures · 1/600_miniatures Yahoo Group
link

Zakalwe64 wrote:

When Marcin finally finishes the 3mm Aliens line…

There will be a 3mm Aliens line?!?! Are there any details on that subject?

There are a lot of quality figures out now in all the different scales you listed. I think it really depends on what kind of game you want to play. If you want one to one skirmish then 15 is probably the smallest size you want. Squad or larger as a base? Then go with the smaller scales. It is a matter of taste. I started in 6mm and bought into 15mm. I have way to much to switch now and the variety is great. I will someday work on my 6mm again but only for large scale battles. Also what is being played by others around you?

Marcin has put out the M57 sharkbait. Robert

My 3 mm-1/600 Miniature Wargaming Yahoo Group
link

3mm_miniatures · 1/600_miniatures Yahoo Group
link

@Robert – Whoops! I forgot about that one. I'm hoping for actual alien/xeno figures.

Marcin has also released a photo of a heavy tank that is straight out of the Colonial Marine Technical Manual. He's promised us a dropship and has teased us about the possibility that aliens will be released in the near future.

6mm rules !!!!!!

I have plenty of 15mm sci fi. There seems to be a trend of vehicle size creep, with bigger and bigger AFVs coming out. If that's your thing, cool, but I already dislike seeing a FoW tank army lined up side-by-side across a table.

I have also amassed a fairly large box of 6mm sci fi as well. I think playing FWC or DS in 6mm on a 4x6 table fits better with what I imagine sci fi weapons ranges to be. Most modern vehicles can shoot farther than a 4x6 mat in most scales.

I'm tempted to do 3mm, but I'd probably lean more towards modern stuff. Maybe some AIW or Cold War stuff. $40 USD gets me enough stuff to do 2 armies for Fate of Nations. Plus I like the look of tank platoon bases.

It comes down to what you like.

Come over to the Dark Side Rothgar LOL. Robert

My 3 mm-1/600 Miniature Wargaming Yahoo Group
link

3mm_miniatures · 1/600_miniatures Yahoo Group
link

Aren't all the arguments being used here for 3mm, the same ones that were used a few years back for 6mm?

Will it ever stop? Will we be arguing the pros and cons of 1mm figures in a few years time? Or will we all be so old that we go back to 28mm, because we can't see anything smaller?

I stuck with GZG 15mm, personally, just the one scale (the few GW figures I have don't count). However, if 20mm Sci-Fi does take off, I would be into that in no time!

Oh, Khurasan's new 6mm infantry, tohwther with Dark Star tanks, may be what I need to go 6mm skirmish…

2mm has existed for decades, Bindon, but hasn't achieved much of a following because it isn't detailed enough. 3mm IS detailed enough. Better detailed than some 6mm lines, in fact.

Also, 6mm has been around for a hound's age. It's not like its popularity started "a few years back" when people noticed you could get larger armies on the table with it. That has ALWAYS been the selling point of micro-scales… And I've been playing microscale SF since 1989. That's two and a half decades, friend, not a few years.

One thing HAS changed though: the price pf metal. A pack pf 3mm figs cost what a pack of GW 6mm figs did twenty years ago. But you gwt 15 castings instead of 4. :)

I do not see anyone arguing pros and cons of micro-scales: they are obvious. What I DO see is people snobbing micro-scales. Odd, necause micro-scale enthusiasts do not snob people who loke 28 mm.

I think it depends on how long you think a few years back is. For some of us it's longer than we care to admit…

Actually I see a lot of threads where the OP starts off with "can someone recommend a line of 28/15mm figures for the War of the Bavarian Succession" only to be told he would be better off using 6mm Baccus (or 2mm or 3mm) figures as that is the only possible way to get the right 'look'.

As a group I think most wargamers are convinced their favourite scale is the one true scale and that anyone who users another scale should be shot… I know some gamers use multiple scales, but size does seem to matter and there is a divide amongst us here.

Micro gamers are just as bad as others, possibly louder than other scale gamers as it is perceived as a 'new' scale and as such, the new converts do tend to shout loudly to gain recognition as the One True Scale.

You can't do the 18th century in 3mm. Yet.

I have seen a very few threads like you describe and, as you say, the arguments are based on the look of the formation. That is not "snobbing": that's legitimate advice to someone's question regarding figs.

Compare that to the almost inevitable comment "why don't you just paint rice/use counters?" which one hears when one talks about microscales. People go out of their way to come into discussions just to make it known how much they despise the scale. I have never seen that happen with 28mm figs.

The worst one sees with the large scales is a critique of the look in terms of historical distances and ranges.

I think that there are plenty of personal reasons involving taste and fading eyesight to not use 3mm which are totally legitimate. Don't snark about how the figs are counters, however, because that's ridiculous.

Not to trash on Brigade Models, because I enjoy them very much, but O8s 3mm stuff is more detailed than their 6mm stuff. And yet I have never seen anyone snob 6mm armor of any sort.

When it comes to 3mm black powder, I think people have a point. 3mm wouldn't be my preferred scale. Given my druthers, I would do 15mm. However, time, cost and storage all militate against that. In under a year, I have painted two ACW armies and a French Napoleonics army and built all the needed terrain for them. Again, it all stores in a couple of shoe boxes and can be playes on my coffee table.

You simply cannot beat that.

28mm is increasingly beyond most people's ability to buy, play and store. If I did 28mm, I would need to confine myself to one or at most two periods. I would need to have opponents nearby with compatible armies and I would need a large house with a garage or access to a gaming club. That is great if you are British or live in Chicago or New York and make 75,000 dollars plus a year.

I live in Rio de Janeiro on a university professor's budget in a three bedroom apartment. What's ironic is that this places me as a relatively privileged gamer in terms of space, money and opponents and I STILL find it hard to do 28mm. When I think about how I got started in fantasy minis back in college in the 1980s doing a Warhampster undead army… There's no way I could do that today on a comparable budget. And even back then, I chose indead because GW had jsut come out with plastic skeletons which were, IIRC, 8 USD for 48 figs.

It's not impossible to play 28 mm on a budget and with limited space. I have a friend in Sao Paulo with two kids, a small apartment, a comparable salary and a Warhampster 40k habit. But Silvio has to store his figs in tubs under the living room table. I don't know how his wife stands it. :) And in order to actually PLAY, Silvio had to start his own club. Of course, that means they only play Warhammer at the club, because that is the only game for which one can round up enough gamers in SP in order to make a club viable.

In my case, I can play the periods and rules I want (not 18th century… Yet) through the simple expedient of pushing the junk on my coffee table aside. Plus, my entire gaming habit stores in one bookshelf and a small chest of drawers.

With 3mm, I can mosh around in history and through rules systems like the bloody Perrys without owning a posh house in the suburbs or being a millionaire. That is the kind of gaming experience I was brought up on, not on being a button-counting perfectionist for one period. The only way I can do that today is with the microscales: 6mm and lower. And with 6mm pricing out at 3 bucks a casting in some cases today, 3mm looks better and better all the time.

For me it is all a matter of time. I only have to look at how long it has taken me to get my 6mm Ogre armies painted, my Battletech forces, and other stuff to realise that there is not enough time in the day to do everything I want to do.

Personally, 15mm is nice, but for me it's a scale for small skirmishes.

10mm is better for large skirmishes, and Company to Battalion level actions.

6mm is my got to for Company and above.

3mm is off the board at this time, due to time and eyesight. Otherwise I'd be all over it.

As for 25mm, I gave all my 25mm stuff away twenty years ago and never looked back.

I can up a couple companies on the 4x6 table in 15mm. No, I'm not talking 10:1 companies of ~10 figures, I'm talking about 1:1 headcount or very near that. My usual Flames of War force had/has 8 platoons, and more in the Desert where infantry platoons are smaller. I always take the maximum number of infantry platoons (and any company-level weapons platoons), and then add some of the battalion's weapons platoons. And then a tank platoon and/or a platoon of AT guns (I always try to have 2 platoons that can kill tanks at range).

on a densely terrained table, it doesn't look like a Napoleonic battlefield (ie, line them up and advance).

And if we're talking a 6x8 table and higher points, well, I will take two full infantry companies and the entire battalion's weapons company if I physically have the models. I still probably will only have 2 tank and/or AT gun platoons, though.

Ok, so I have some 28mm figures. Thinking about what I have, most is either 20mm or 15mm.

20mm is really First World War and beyond.

15mm is a collection of ancients, renaissance, SYW, a couple of C19 armies, Vietnam War (rarely played) and some other bits. And some Sci-Fi.

28mm, finished armies? Hmmn, some Byzantines. Some HotT armies. Actually, most of the 28mm stuff I have is for HotT sized armiies, unfortunately I don't have the huge 28mm armies and periods I would love to have. I do have a few Death in the Dark Continent armies. The largest is around 90 figures, the smallest 25.

I don't have any microscale figures. I did try once or twice, some H&R modern British (well, they were at the time…).

Space-wise, I have a shed…

But it isn't about space or cost, or even time. Even with worsening eyesight I can paint a 15mm figure to an acceptable standard and enjoy the process. Ok, I could probably learn the techniques and churn out army after army of 3mm, but I have more time to paint than I have to game, so it is about spending as much hobby-time doing something I enjoy, so to me 15mm is the glass barrier. I could go down to 10mm, but I would want to paint the figures to the same standard as 15mm, so I would probably spend the same or more time on a unit painting in 10mm than 15mm!

Opponent-wise, it is just me and a mate. Most of the time it is gaming at my house, so I don't have to worry about lugging armies around.

So, to me, bigger is better, not for cost or prestige (look at me and my 28mm army!), but purely because I prefer to have fewer better looking toys as I spend more time painting them than playing with them! Of course other people may prefer the opposite. Those who can paint 6mm to an individual high standard are few and far between. Bigger is also easier to paint. I do realise that smaller need numbers to look better (I have read the Baccus eulogy to 6mm), but I find it hard to paint not to my best ability…