"Salute 2014..the start " Topic

So 10am and here is the queue

More on my blog

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On my way
Be there at 11 to avoid the queue :-)

Nearly 1030 now and last of pre purchase tickets have only just got in.

Given the show is only 7 hours long, surely there is a better way to handle entry as my wait is looking like nearly an hour at this point. A good chunk of day wasted!

This is why I prefer Derby of Colours…too much waiting at Salute

Ah, wish I were there… even for that long line, lots of mingling and shared excitement.

Mmm, always fancied going but I would be extremely miffed off if I had travelled 6 hours plus or splashed out on a hotel only then to have to face that queue. I really would have to wonder if I should bother at all.

Had me ticket but duty problems cropped up and I will miss it! Last year tyhe pre order ticket queue went in like a flash,

Tally Ho!

At many U.S. conventions you're able to get your entry badge the night before so you can walk right in at opening time. Maybe they could try that.

There are 2 queues, one with pre paid tickets and one without .. Both seem equally long!!

I've posted some more pics my blog. I'll try to do it as I go along

I can't think of anything that I would stand in a line like that for…..

….and people complain about the HMGS lines…

DM

Hi,

As a member of the South London Warlords I'm at Salute most years but sadly not this time.

Sorry to hear about the wait but in all honesty it's a miracle that there are not delays more often as all it takes is for the venue to come up with some last minute requirement or some traders to set up late for problems to arise.

However please be assured that your hosts want you to have an enjoyable and hassle-free day and have and will continue to do all they can to achieve this in future years.

Cheers,

Paul

To be honest the queue is long , but once the doors are open it goes down fast.

Most conventions wrap the line around a wall or through smaller rooms so you can't see how long the line really is :)

'Progressive disclosure', as you get further in you get more information ;)

What is the average attendance for Salute?

Ticket machine with swipe card entry system. Cant understand why Excel doesn't have a system like this.

Back home now, and wanted to post some fairly blunt feedback.

Having been going to Salute for many years, in my personal view (fully accepting that we all had different experiences), this was the worst that I have ever seen the entry problem.

It was completely unnaceptable to be waiting to get in for over an hour after the show started, particularly when it all the advance purchase tickets were still filing in after 25 minutes. Given the show is only 7 hours long, and given the show organisers allow free admission after 4pm, to lose an hour of the show was deeply frustrating.

The problem to my fairly blunt mind is poor entry procedures. I have no problem paying £11.00 GBP for entry, but it does slow things down dramatically as people are often fumbling for change. When you have several thousand people, and (by my quick count) 6 cashiers, this is a recipe to slow things down dramatically.

Secondly, the problem is funnelling, that despite the hall having 3 large entry points, only one was in use and this was half blocked off for the exit only point. This created a huge bottleneck as you were trying to force several thousand gamers through a tiny chokepoint.

My suggested solutions would be as follows:

1. Sell tickets in line to those with the correct cash – in other words, create a 'prepay ticket line', a 'correct cash or and happy to pay and not get change line' where you can pay and get a hand stamp and then file for entry and an 'everybody else who has change needs line'. The space exists in the empty hall to do this – and I saw plenty of volunteers standing around chatting watching people get more and more frustrated as the queues wound on and then got randomly moved from one wall to another.

Use the three entrances appropriately for the hour or so it needs to clear the line.

2. Put more cashiers on the entry point so people get through as quickly as possible – there need to be more volunteers there at point of entry, and not elsewhere for the first 2 hours or so.

3. Expand to make use of the exit area – its ridiculous to close off half your entry point and have no one really exiting. Agaibn, for the first hour use some of the side dooors out of the conference hall as an 'exit only' solution for those who do need to leave and let the main body come in through the entrance.

Other observations in no particular order:

1. Was it me or was it really dark in the hall this year?

2. It was a shame there was only one coffee bar, not two like I remember from previous years?

3. The loss of the B&B wasnt noticed to me at least, but did create more floor space. It did feel very sparse this year compared to previous years in the centre – at least one trade told me that going by the wall saved them £400.00 GBP and gave them more stand space.

4. Can someone please please please have a word with some of the Star Wars reenactors and give them some basic weapon safety tips. I know they are holding a replica gun, but having been trained on firearms, I also know that you should never, never, never point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it to shoot them. Frankly I found these clowns walking round pointing their guns at people in a 'I'm going to shoot you' pose to be slightly unsettling. Its probably only myself that got annoyed about it, but you should NEVER point a gun, replica or otherwise, at someone. Please can you ask them to stop doing this.

That said, the reason I am sounding harsh here isn't because I don't appreciate the efforts of the warlords, but because I think a small change will do so much better. This is the biggest wargaming show in the UK if not the World, and I think we have to have higher expectations. The more business like it becomes, the more I expect to see it run as a professional event.

Any guidelines on light sabres?

Hi Jimlad48,

I know you mean well but I'm struggling with the concept of treating "weapons" held by kind folk dressed-up as Star Ship Troopers needing to be traineded to avoid causing distress because they or the public might believe that their weapons are real?!

What about Daleks' weapons?

Before you know we'll be prevented from pointing 25mm scale artillery at figures!

Cheers,

Paul

sorry – I know my point sounds very pernickety, but the weapons in question were pistols not laser guns (I believe the style was a modified luger?).

I know it may sound foolish, but I for one believe randomly pointing a weapon of any description that clearly looks like a modern pistol or submachine gun at a member of the public is in bad taste and should not be encouraged.

Non-gamer convention events have a register/cashier set up outside the door, usually 10 to 12 booths. For instance the CHFA trade show I'm attending this weekend here in Vancouver.
They will have 12 or so set up outside the door. Then there are 4 to 6 doors with people checking badges at the entry point.

If the South London Warlords were to set it up this way, say 4 register/cashiers for correct change the other 8 for non-correct, the line would go very fast.

However, there could be reason for the slow entry. Keeping it at a steady pace, with not so many people entering would not clog up the trade booths so much. Giving people a chance to peruse their favorite sellers.

JMHO

Pre printed tickets with bar code. Cashiers walk the line with tickets, doormen have scanner. Separate line for those using credit cards with a more traditonal cashier set up. Software is free online, most mobile phones would act as a scanner if you dont want to invest $50 USD in the hardware. When you see a line like that it gets you annoyed straight away. If the layout inside has been well planned, the traders stands should cause no bottlenecks.
At the very least use stanchions and ropes to snake the line. That looks like a queue for a soup kitchen.

Hi Jimlad48,

Didn't realise that they were Lugers so share your concerns more and will resist commencing a discussion on whether Starship Troopers used these!

P

Conventions here in the Pacific Northwest, Vancouver, Seattle, Olympia don't allow any uniforms or weapons of any kind.

That would seem a logical step for such a large and popular convention in England.

This created a huge bottleneck as you were trying to force several thousand gamers through a tiny chokepoint.

Given the girth of most of us even a full door may not have been enough.

I would still like to visit this show, but I hate queues.

Well said, Jim Lad! The queuing system was catastrophic, and totally unequal to the scale of event the Warlords are trying to put on. It has to get more professional – why arrive at 0945, pay £15.00 GBP for all day parking, then be expected to queue in a huge empty hall, for forty five minutes, to get into a show after 1100 and paying another £11.00 GBP for the privilege. £26.00 GBP before you get through the door, 75 minutes after you arrive. Something is wrong, and something needs to be done. What did the traders I spoke to say? Seemed very quiet early on, couldn't understand it! Four or five people taking money on an event this size is not a joke, it is an insult.

Mollinary

Quite easy, have the pay desks in the second hall if Excel/security are letting you have it for free..

See, I knew I turned up a 11:00 for a reason!

Walked right up to the booth, paid and walked right in.

Oh and the Excel parking fee (note the singular) sucks!

After five years of putting on games at Salute and paying the All Day fee as a matter of course, I was laughingly expecting to pay a bit less for the 3 – 4 hours I expected to be there this year.

Turns out the reason there is no scale of charges on their web site is there is only one! £15.00 GBP if you stay 24 minutes or 24 hours.

Fantastic!

I haven't seen so many hacked off people in a car park for ages!

Ensign,

Yes, good idea! We made this point to the organisers, but were told that they only knew they would have that hall a week a week in advance, and that was too late to change their plans. Thanks be to G.. they were not organising any sort to military operation if a week was not enough time to adapt!

Mollinary

"… they were not organising any sort to military operation if a week was not enough time to adapt"

With a military operation you have the troops and staff available for the whole week prior to D-Day, with a wargames show run by a club you probably only have one club meeting in the last week.

@Jimlad48

I thought it was dark too.

Also not a huge fan of the Star Wars cosplay guys – they just get in the way. Was there actually a Star Wars game this year ? Saw some traders running x-wing, but that doesn't really count ;-)

Also found the "TV crew" a bit of a pain – presumably this is for youtube ?

well only my second time there! so who am i to comment, but i think it only a group of very nice people doing their utmost to have this show,can it be done better,always but be realistic,even EXcell itself seems not to be able to flush its toilets,food vendors seem to be out-gunned on a day with multiple events. those are there not only to survive but to trive, but they fail. just maybe instead of being critics, we should thank the south london warlords for their efforts.

I think that is something people tend to forget given its scale, Salute is still only a club show run by volunteers not a professional undertaking run by a permanent staff.

You are never, never, ever, going to get instant access on the dot of opening time for an event like this irrespective of pre-ticketing, multiple entry points, smartphone gizmos whatever, even if a thousand people simply file through 3 entry points, which is probably the max possible for that hall, IF there were sufficient (volunteer) stewards. (unlikely) and if Excel allowed temporary opening of 3 entry points (less likely), temporary use of exits as entry points is superficially a good idea but would be vetoed by fire/saftey on grounds of confusing signage etc.
It simply won't happen.
You cannot get 1 or 2 thousand people through 2 or 3 chokepoints very quickly with the level of safety required. It only takes a simple piece of confusion/upset to bring the whole thing to grinding halt, child is sick on the floor, someone faints, wrong ticket in wrong queue, impatient person wants to berate steward etc etc.
If you go to a sports stadium do 50% of the crowd turn up 1 minute before kick off and instantly get let in? No, of course not. That seems to be what people are demanding here.
Having said that, waiting for more than 30minutes is extremely tedious, but I'm afraid its the price you pay for not being able to bear the idea that you might miss something.
The only thing you can do in these situations is pre-book and turn up slightly later, which, is what I normally do,and not have to queue.
What I did notice was a massive drop off in crowd volume by 3.30pm. I wonder how many people desperately queing at 10.00am were still there at 5?, can't have been many, could have rocked up at 11 and spent precisely the same number of minutes enjoying what I thought was a good show.

I shall now reveal myself as a relatively member of the warlords who hadnt been able to get in for a game yet due to my work patterns.

I happened to log onto their forum this morning and was astounded to see some of the comments from club members about the attitudes of those of us on TMP who had complained about queue length. I've screenshotted and saved them all, but won't post the conversations here.

But, I do think that seeing multiple members of the Club refer to a member of the public who complained as 'F*cker" because he'd not bought an advance ticket while complaining about queue length, and calling people 'basil fawlty', and being extremely rude about anyone who complained (particularly citing TMP as the only place where concerns existed) was in poor taste.

I pointed out that as organisers, no matter how frustrating it was that people were, it was not appropriate to refer to them as 'ers', and was told by one person that

"complaining about having cake and not eating it makes him a er in my opinion".

For my part I've immediately resigned as a member of the Warlords, and would never return. I have no wish to be part of a club that regards paying guests at their shows as 'ers' when they raise legitimate concerns about the length of time it takes to get in.

Thats what Warlords think us TMPers are people 'ers' – and I have it in writing…

(For the record, due to the system 'profanity' filter, the word that is bleeped out begins with 'F' and ends in 'Uckers')

How about entry tickets with a specific time on? Batches every 15-20 minutes.

That is how Pedal for Scotland manages 10,000 cyclists on Glasgow Green

Ahh the traditional London greeting to those coming to the capital……..KETTLING!

Never seen such a fiasco……… And yes it was dark…..

Jimlad48,

I am not a Warlord, nor have I been to salute for some years, partly because of work commitments, but also because much of it was becoming irrelevant to my personal wargame interests, so I have no axe to grind regarding this year's entry arrangements.

I just wanted to express my appreciation of your sticking up for the paying customers, and to applaud the way you have stuck to your principles and resigned. Bravo, sir!

Speaking as someone with over 20 years in the events business, and who has worked in every major venue in the UK, a lot in Europe, and a few in the states and middle-east, they do tend to have one single thing in common.
Which is a total and equal contempt for organisers, exhibitors and the public (and usually their own employees).
Large events venues are interested in one thing and one thing only, extracting as much money from all concerned as is possible, your comfort and enjoyment are a VERY long way down their list of priorities, unless it can be combined with making them a profit.
If coursing inconvenience can be avoided only by the event venue losing money, then inconvenience wins every time.
Hence lower levels of lighting (saves excel money), hence high flat rate parking charge, fewer people use it, for same/ more money, and you suddenly have sufficient parking where previously it was reaching capacity
Hence abnegation and devolution of responsibility onto (in this case) an amateur organisation, using minimum levels of staff and reliance on unpaid stewards and organisers.

Well said christot!

One question I would like to ask the assembled company is why so many feel the desperate urge to rock up at the Excel for when the doors are supposed to open in the first place.

Having to be there for 08:00 for the last five years as a demo gamer and seen the lines for previous years as well, you couldn't have paid me to be there at 10:00 or before.

In years gone by when it was a foot race to your favorite supplier to make a purchase before they sold out, maybe, but in the pre order, get in on their website later, era what the hell are you doing it for?

Love to wait around with like minded souls? Apparently not!

Like to bitch about how disorganized it all is, again? Who knows!

Personally having waltzed at 11:15 I have nothing to moan about – except for the light, too many WW1 games (not interested) WW2 games (only partially interested) but get why they were all there and the trend towards a high number of games that were on really small tables and seemed to involve some form of skirmish.

Oh! and Not having the Bring and Buy was a plus in space terms.

Final thought, its now reached a point if God banned non historic wargaming from the show, in any form, including traders, you would no longer moan able moan about Excel – it wouldn't there.

Makes you think don't it?

PS: If I see another MDF building, I'm going to scream!

If only in the run up Warlords had a member who knew how to organise things much better and was prepared to volunter their time to help.

But they didn't.

So they put on a show that brought thousands of people together to get joy from this great hobby for the umpteenth year in sucession. I'll be back again next year, and as before I'll buy a ticket in advance to minimise the admin on the day, join the queue in full knowledge that a few thousand people take time to filter through an entrance and then get on with enjoying myself. For any Warlords involved in putting on the show – thanks for your efforts.

Hi, I'm a South London Warlord member who from 7.00am to about 12.00am was on the trader door and gamer door and also helping people in.

As you may remember last year the ticket queues were on the main concourse, some of the coffee shops etc complained to Excel that customers could not get to them because of the queue, hence why this year we were given a hall to queue in. The cake shop queue was also long and blocked some of the shops, be interesting to what will happen next year.

Hi, Christot.. is was closer to 5000 people that we had to get through the ticket barriers, hard to do in 30 minutes. <G>.
We are not a profit making wargames club, any profit goes back into the next Salute and funds scenery etc. We also do not treat our traders or the our public with contempt, Salute is our showcase for our hobby for demo and participation games and for the public to spend money with our traders.

Hi Mollinary, we are not professionals we all have daytime jobs we don't have an office, things can happen at Excel were we don't have the time to react to it. I would call it catastrophic if we had both the cake shop show queue and Salute queue in the same place.
I think using the exit for getting people into Salute would work well, bot I'm sure the committee will be looking at all ways to improve and speed up the queue.

these are my thoughts and not the committee of South London Warlords or the Club

Salute is a big beast, we tweak it then something else happens then we have to tweak again. Please be assured that as a bunch of volunteers we are always trying to improve Salute and always listen to ways to improve Salute.
by the way I thought the light was ok

Thanks

Its a big beast yes, probably too big for an amateur body to manage, and so one that I now avoid.

Iborth, I think You misunderstood my post, which was no way directed at SLW but at Excel, SWL are as much the victims in this anyone else, your post in fact reveals a perfect example in high-lighting how a complaint from a regular coffee franchise (paying a high rent and percentage of turnover to excel) take precedence over the hapless organiser every time.
Speaking as a professional, I think SWL do a decent job given the restrictions and constraints they have to operate under due to the nature of the event and the imperatives which are not profit driven but are defined by providing the show in the first place.

My comments on this – rather than repeating them as Jimlad had done on different threads – are here:

TMP link

John T

Well, for what i's worth I'm going to give you the view of a foreign visitor to Salute (slightly biased perhaps as this was exactly my 32nd visit)

Being a show coordinator for a -much smaller- wargame event I can only, year after year, applaud the efforts of the Warlords. Can't even begin to imagine what it must be to run a show this size with a number of visitors 3 to 4 times as many as our thing.

About twenty of us made the Channel trip and the group I was was slightly late due to some delays on the Tube. Which had us arrive at 10.10 and diverted to what some people now denigratingly call a 'holding pen'. It was indeed a bit shocking to see that queu lining the walls in a huge empty hall, but thanks to an efficient organisation by the Warlords again we got in by 10:36. Really not bad in my book, In fact quite good given the sheer numbers. If you want people to get in any quicker you'll have to use whips and I'm sure that wouldn't be appreciated either.

If I understand the situation correctly it was because some concession holders protested that their seating areas with overpriced wares(my opinion) couldn't be reached easily enough. Certainly the way the Excel staff reacted to this could have been better- in fact it should have been better- but that doesn't reflect on the Warlords does it?
If anything it shows how the Excel management values it's show organisers. Then again I'm utterly convinced that the Warlords will address that problem, and that as they have always done before, make sure it doesn't happen again.

Complaining about a hard floor is also a bit superfluous. That floor hasn't changed in years and by now everyone should be aware of it. Going to Salute ( and many, many other shows, wargames- and otherwise as well) with anything but good, soft footwear is simply asking for a lot of problems.
Would you prefer carpetting? Then expect to pay a much higher entry fee. I know because I got a quote for a venue about two thirds the size of this hall. We promptly forgot about the whole thing.
Agree it would help those with sore feet and cut down on the ambient noise but it is also a grave nuisance to some. Allergic to dust anyone?

About the show itself. Nearly all of the games I saw ( and yes I missed quite a few because I was otherwise engaged) were simply excellent.
Fantastic selection of traders as always and truly a 'shopping paradise' The Mrs. retaliated yesterday by going on her own shopping spree at home and now I'm being shown handbags, shoes, dresses and scarfs, while what I really want to do is unpack MY new toys. Oh well…

My only negative experience yesterday had again nothing to do with the show itself but reflects rather badly on the Excel 'staff'. As I'm not only addicted to lead figures but also to tobacco, I went for my single after lunch smoke around 2:30: From experience I know there's a nice terrace outside of the Excel building so I started walking that way.
At my age that means a 10 minute walk or so.
About halfway the entire hall was cordoned off by blue ribbons 'guarded' by some Excel staff trying very hard to look like security goons. Some of them succeeded in that particular aspect. I was rather unfriendly told by a bloke, that can only be described as a gorilla in a black suit, this was a temporary 'VIP' area and I had to go out the other way.
Makes you wonder if those same concession holders that complained about the Salute queu suddenly changed their minds.

So again big thanks to the Warlords. Thank you for your unceasing enthousisasm, organisational skill and competence which are IMHO still setting a benchmark.

This was my first Salute and I arrived at 10:45, saw the long queues streaming into the venue and decided to go and have a coffee and a bagel. 15 minutes later I walked right in without having to wait. Seems like a pretty easy fix if you don't like waiting. I had also seen everything I wanted to see and penniless by 3:30pm so I don't see the point of the rushing in at the beginning.

I thought it was a great show, quite stunning for a first-timer and I thought it was incredibly well organized considering this is all done by volunteers, I salute the event organizers.

Everyone is entitled to let off steam, Warlords and punters alike. I can see that both for Excel, and the concession owners, having the queue in another hall rather than in the concourse scratches their particular itch, and reduces their inconvenience. It didn't really do anything for the inconvenience of the people in the queue. It also seems, by creating a gap between the queuing hall and the entrance, it allowed a number of people to miss the queue completely and just walk in, wondering what all the fuss was about. I know that when I left the holding area for the entrance it was just after 1100am and there were still two walls of queue behind me. People are correct who say one can arrive later, and walk in. If I decide to go again next year (and I have been going to SALUTE annually since the Kensington Town Hall days without having felt it necessary to comment) then this is probably what I will do. But I will still return to the point that once people are being charged money to attend an event, then the excuse that the people organising the event are just amateurs begins to wear thin. Anyway, let's hope that John Treadaway's belief that it will be fixed next year turns out to be true, I know the organisers will try hard.

Mollinary

Perhaps using Boris's public transport would save you guys £15.00 GBP in parking. Public Transport is great in London.