"Salute - the end" Topic

A small photo montage on my blog

Hope you enjoy

Www.lurkio.co.uk/blog

That's the last Salute I ever go to.

Do you have more information on the wrestling game?

Thanks

DM

That picture of the people waiting in line, wow, I had no idea that many people attended.

The West Wind stuff looks great, I am looking forward to the Kickstarter fullfillment!

What is the average attendance, anyone know?

Too many.

What queue ? I just walked straight in at about 10:30 (well, maybe 30 or 40 people in front of me).

I was very impressed. Didn't have to go and queue in any other hall first either. Well done The Warlords.

Once the doors opened at 10am we were in, in 15 mins with the advance tickets

The lighting was poor but always is

The entire excel was busy I saw 3 other conventions/shows on in other halls too

It seemed far busier than last year to me

I still didn't get to see all of it just so much

Didn't miss the bring and buy at all as never use it at this show I tend to use one at warfare only as best b&b

Was good show, need to remember to have better shoes as the floor was really hard need more cushioning :-)

Al

20th Maine ,

Well, if you did that, congratulations! You either already had a ticket, or you jumped the queue of the people who had been waiting for ages. Given the state of the organisation, the latter would not surprise me.

Mollinary

Robert666 said

That's the last Salute I ever go to

Why?

Gwydion,

I suggest you read the posts on the start of SALUTE, it should rapidly become clear!

Mollinary

This was not the best Salute – and I love this show! I book my annual holidays around them. My reasons were:-

* I got there at 9.45am and with advance tickets didn't get in to 10.30am.

* The lighting was very poor!

* It was too big! I didn't get to see the whole show and I stayed till 4.30!

* It was a new hall and by the time I had been to both ends I thought I had completed a marathon!

* The traders on the outside missed out cos I focused on those in the middle.

The net result is I actually spent less than I budgeted (a first)

Will I go again – yes. However Salute is on trial!!

Don

I dont think Warlords are to blame for any delays. It's the venue that provides crowd control, at least in my experience it is. I've had similar experiences in some ports where some official has completely screwed up the flow of traffic. All it takes is the health and safety guy to moan about the position of a table and everything grinds to a halt.

Jez,

The question is not "Are they to blame", but "Are they responsible?" . SALUTE is their show, not Excel's. The important question is " are they providing a reasonable experience for the people that they are asking to pay for the experience.". The answer today was emphatically "NO"! If they blame Excel, than they should move! This is the flagship of the hobby, and the organisation needs to reflect that.

Mollinary

20th Maine, I got there at 10:20, and was still in the holding pens at 10:55, so there's about 2500 people that want to have a word :)

I kind of agree with you Mol. Just be aware that just because you rent space doesn't give you much say on how things operate. I agree that if the venue can't give better guarantees then alternatives should be looked at.
I just remember places like Los Angeles, which was always a complete mess and we couldn't do anything, regulation this and union that etc. in the end we moved. Other ports actively worked with us to form plans. It's mainly down to he venue managements style, if he always knows best, then it's time to move on…. But where?

@mollinary & @ensign – as I said I walked straight down to the door, there was a queue of ~40 people, I was in in a jiffy and I hadn't had a pre-paid ticket. The stewards were actually calling people out of the line with pre-paids. I just joined the back of the queue in the Excel concourse same as always. I was amazed it was so short, and was very impressed at The Warlords.

I wasn't directed to some sort of holding area by anyone, and none of the stewards said "hey – back o' the line in holding bay 2 you joker". If I inadvertently jumped the queue – then of course I'm sorry, but how could I have known ?

I had an exhibitor badge so walked through … one of our party did not and rejoined us shortly after.

I think if you came by car and came in the wrong end, you missed the kettling pen and were admitted via the short delay. Without being aware that others were notionally ahead of you …

I can see why that is disappointing to those held further back.

Phil

Thanks!
Clif

I came in the train end, walked down the right hand side of the concourse – I was thinking about getting a bacon sandwich from the food vendor about three booths in, I hadn't had breakfast. Then I decided I probably shouldn't, so carried on down looking for the queue that usually runs from Salute's door to the OTHER end of the concourse.

I found Salute's door, saw the queue went the other way this year, walked to the back and joined – and others joined behind me in two and threes just as always happens. The only difference was instead of being several thousand long it was, well maybe 40 was an underestimate – but no-more than 100.

There was no-one in the pre-booked badge line. No-one at all, until the stewards called people out of the line I was in.

Having seen some blog pictures it looks like I did miss the kettling area. I didn't see a sign for it, no-one pointed me to it, I hadn't read on TMP that this was what they were going to do and at every other Salute at Excel the long queue was just on the concourse. The steward at the back of the queue didn't tell me either.

So, how would I have known to go and search for a room with a queue? As people were joining behind me in drips and drabs then I guess that in fact quite a few people jumped the queue without knowing it. Something for The Warlords to think about for next time I guess.

Gwydion,
Apart from the cost of parking a flat fee of £15.00 GBP no change given, the herding like cattle into another huge arena with a seven year old boy to keep occupied. The refusal to give my son a Salute bag because he had not paid, being excempt, the srcums at every single stall with gamers who seemed to have no qualms in pushing the young lad to one side.
Being ignored at nearly all demo games despite attempts to engage the organisers, again huge queues at every food outlet and the feeling of being at a giant car boot sale.
I used to go to shows to see the wares, now with the internet you can do this from home, so I thought I would take my boy, well not to Salute anymore, I shall look out for the small shows with a bigger heart, Salute for me has lost its heart and soul.

I don't know if I am becoming old and negative but fighting my way through the crowds to get first from Kings Cross to the DLR and then to Excel, queueing for the toilet, queueing for a coffee and the queuing for admission to the show followed by wandering around a huge dimly shed isn't enjoyable anymore.

Oh, I forgot, fighting through the crowds at each trader to hand over money was a struggle, especially by midday when the body odour of the attendees started to kick in.

Not for me – sorry.

So many comments echoing what I said earlier this year and last year.

Makes me glad I stuck to my principles and didn't go.

I shall now reveal myself as a member of the warlords who hadnt been able to get in for a game yet due to my work patterns.

I happened to log onto their forum this morning and was astounded to see some of the comments from club members about the attitudes of those of us on TMP who had complained about queue length. I've screenshotted and saved them all, but won't post the conversations here.

But, I do think that seeing multiple members of the Club refer to a member of the public who complained as 'F*cker" because he'd not bought an advance ticket while complaining about queue length, and calling people 'basil fawlty', and being extremely rude about anyone who complained (particularly citing TMP as the only place where concerns existed) was in poor taste.

I pointed out that as organisers, no matter how frustrating it was that people were, it was not appropriate to refer to them as 'Bleeped texters', and was told by one person that

"complaining about having cake and not eating it makes him a Bleeped texter in my opinion".

For my part I've immediately resigned as a member of the Warlords, and would never return. I have no wish to be part of a club that regards paying guests at their shows as 'Bleeped texters' when they raise legitimate concerns about the length of time it takes to get in.

Thats what Warlords think us TMPers are people 'Bleeped texters' – and I have it in writing…

(For the record, due to the system 'profanity' filter, the word that is bleeped out begins with 'F' and ends in 'Uckers')

Thanks JimLad48 for bringing this to the attention of TMP. I suspected that was the case anyway.

It show a degree of integrity sadly lacking amongst many.

Probably not "appropriate" in this over-sensitive age to complain about someone as bleep whatever, even though there is every chance it was entirely accurate.

Jimlad48

First off. Who are you? From what I can gather you have been a member of the Warlords for… er, no particular length of time and signed onto the Warlords internal Forum breaking the rules by not using your actual name. You have said that you've never played a game at the Warlords. Hmmm.

I am a member of the Warlords: you can tell that by that name thing I use to sign on here (and everywhere else). Own your opinions, Jim. However, I'm no longer on committee and have no responsibilities for running the club or any part of the show which is why I've kept my mouth shut until now. My opinions here are my own and do not represent those of the club as a whole or the organising committee.

But you're criticising a club I've been a member of for 38 years and – frankly – without much justification, in my opinion, so here goes:

Jim, you patently have no idea what is involved in running Salute. I do. The people have come back from a show last night exhausted and tired and – on a private forum (which is no different to standing in a pub b*tching about life in general) have let off some exhausted steam.

So what?

Grow up. Get over it. If you chose to betray the confidence of a private conversation that's up to you but… It doesn't make me think very highly of you, I have to say.

Second, don't make the mistake of thinking that a couple of grown men whinging at the end of a long day is representative of anything. Those complaining on this forum – who have every right to do so – are not representative of the thousands that attended. Neither are a couple of guys letting off steam at the Warlords in private (sorry, do I have to say that again?) representative of the club as a whole.

Thirdly, have a look at the past and the Warlord's reputation. And I don't mean their or my reputation for being ‘nice guys': I – for one – have been pretty short with people in the past over Salute: its an enormous endeavour and people who've been working on it for a year and a half (the lead time of a show) with the frightning responsibility that the show represents can sometimes get a bit short with people who turn up on the day and criticise things that the enthusiastic amateurs who run the show struggle to control.

Fourthly – remembering back to that past – does anyone remember the Salute of 1985? The queue at Kensington Town hall was (for the time) vast and we vowed not to let it happen again: hence, Queue Buster badges from then on in. I was the show organiser fo '86: We fixed it.

Anyone remember Salute of 2000? The first year at Olympia? That was the year we had no access to the new venue on the first floor except two huge lifts and the queue to get in stretched for 600 metres down the road. I was heavily involved with the show at that point (being club president) and made a promise to show attendees that we would never let that happen again (indeed I made a personal promise in print – Miniature Wargames and WI, as I recall). We sorted that out by hiring different floors, spending more money, taking greater risk and so forth.

We fixed it.

Salute 2014's problem was almost entirely out of the control of the club: 80% of it was caused by the ‘Security' staff the club is forced to hire by ExCel management (at multiple thousands of pounds I might add) not doing their job properly and herding gamers from pillar to post without clearing that with the Club's managing team first, purely for their own ends (specifically to clear the fronts of the concession stands outside the show itself).This is unacceptable and will be addressed.

Salute 2015 will fix this problem. I don't know exactly what the fix will be (well, I suspect I do know but it's not my place to say. I spoke to the Salute coordinators and they already have an idea in place).

But – lastly – have some faith and some tolerance, why don't ya?

That's more than 40 Salute's the Warlords have under their belts. The current coordinator has been on committee more than a decade and a half and has been the coordinator for around 8 years.

The Club always fixes the problems that come up at the show and they do listen to both the thousands of questionnaires we used to give out at the show and people's comments about what they do and don't like at the show.

They've just come back from running the biggest show of the calendar and are exhausted.

Give them a break.

This will be my last comment on the matter. See you all at Salute 2015.

John also exhausted Treadaway

As my thread has been somewhat hijacked, I'd just like to say that I love salute, and it is really the only show I'd go out of my way to attend. Even queuing did add a certain amount of excitement to the proceedings. Good job guys

We had a great time, the queue was far better organised than last year. We joined it a little after 10 and it was moving the whole time (this was for the advance purchased tickets). Looking forward to next year!

John
I will keep this brief so as not to derail the thread. Firstly my warlords ID does display my real name, but nice try to thread derail. Secondly, I've actually been a member for about a year on the occasional membership package, but due to work constraints have rarely been free on mondays. But, every Monday I have been free, I've asked to try and get a game without any success due to a lack of members able to play me. Tomorrow was due to have been my first visit – but no more.

Frankly the comments on display shocked me because as one of the TMPers who was being so disparagingly referred to, I was outraged to see the utter level of contempt held by several members of the Warlords towards the paying public. There is letting of steam and there is displaying deeply rude and offensive attitudes towards other people, which even when I stepped in to suggest that perhaps the language used wasn't appropriate, was told that it was fine.

I have no interest in associating myself with a club full of people who are in my 25 years of wargaming displaying the most offensive attitude I have ever seen towards other gamers. This may work for you and your club, but I have no desire to have any further link to it.

The lesson seems to attendees seems to be to buy an advanced ticket – I did and got in on arrival just after 10.30. When I returned home I was shocked to see the photos of the queueing shed and it was clearly not well signed for those without tickets. It is still a must do show for me. The venue as a whole seems to have got significantly more successful and busier over recent years.

regards

Garry

Unfortunately GarryWills, due to private reasons I cannot guarantee that I would be a available that Saturday untill the Friday night, so buying tickets in advance would not work for me and I'm sure many others. However if all the people in the pay on day queue had bought advance tickets, perhaps it would have just been a longer advance ticket queue.

These days a lot of gigs have "print at home tickets" (and airlines have print at home boarding passes). Maybe something like that would help. Just a thought, not sure what the practicalities are.

JimLad48,

You know me as I use the same name on the Warlords from, just like John Treadaway.

Now you aren't giving some of these people the full story are you. Yes Jame has been an ASSOCIATE member of our club, and has tried without much success to get a game when he has said he will be able to attend to that I agree. However, he has to my knowledge never been down the club and really intoduced himself and made it known what games he plays, he has then posted a request stating what games he wants to play and when he wants to play them. I think he forgets that despite forums a majority of games are usually arranged verbal and many of our members are usually booked up weeks in advanced with either friendly games, campaigns or leagues which means it's difficult to fit people in. This basically why we always have a party game at least once a month for NEW members to come down, join in, and get a chance to socialise with the established members.

There's a young guy called Felix that had very similar problems to start with, but now he gets a game every week.

We are all human and do are best to accommodate people to our best ability, sometimes it's a case of dates clashing simple as that.

GT

I have no real interest in derailing this further than you are already trying. But, lets look at the other side of the story. I've tried for a year to get a game, mainly because as I noted, and have noted on the main forum for Warlords, that firstly, there are very few Mondays I can make, and secondly as I live some distance from the club, and also only paid for 8 visits per year I didn't want to waste a visit to say hello and not get a game. I finally also have repeatedly and politely pointed out that I'm an extremely busy person and I only really have the time to invest in a couple of systems (SAGA, X-Wing, Bolt Action) and while I'm sure the other games are great, I personally don't really want to play them. When I have raised this I've been told to come and play something different – fine if thats your gaming style, but I really don't wish to spend a long way travelling to play a random game that is of absolutely no interest to me. Sorry, thats just who I am – if I'm going to invest one of my 8 nights per year, I'd like to do so for a system that holds real interest and appeal to me. Personally I don't think thats unreasonable.

Like you say, two sides to every story, but I'm not pretending to be something I'm not – I have always been very open that I only play a few systems (and my club login showed clearly what they were). I've found that as a member of several other gaming clubs, games are in the main arranged via the forum and not via the physical club, and I don't hugely fancy wasting an evening travelling a long distance to find out that no one is there who plays a system and there is no guarantee that the people I need to see will even be there to arrange games for future.

If the Warlords want to push this issue, then do it via my email (which I know you have) or PM. I have no desire to derail this thread further than it already has.

JimLad48, your idea of "asking for a game" was that we play the small range of games you do play, with only c 1-2 weeks notice, and berating us as unco-operative when we suggested you either (i) give us more notice or (ii) come and play something we were actually playing that evening. And when we did organise a SAGA session for an evening you said you could make it, you then didn't pitch.

Also, you could always of stepped up yesterday and helped, you must've read that we need all the help we can get right… would've saved £11.00 GBP and a long wait in that queue too ;)

Freecloud – As noted above, I'm not going to derail a thread further. Suffice to say several of your statements are factually untrue. Others ignore clearly stated realities. If you want to email me or PM me then I am happy to point out the many errors in your post.

So, you joined a club. Make little effort to play a game for an entire year. When a game is organised, just for you, you don't turn up with no apology. Make no effort to help organise or run the show. Bitch and moan on a public forum about what is said on a private forum. Hide behind an Alias. Generally act like a cock.

you really deserve . I'm sure the warlords will miss you. Big man on the internet. Pfft.

Okay JimLad,

Fine I have no more to say on this subject at this time.

Just remember you started all this by griping on a public forum about comments made on a private members only forum.

I am sure that you will get games in your other clubs and I sincerely hope that you enjoy playing them.

I've advised a senior member of the Warlords by email this morning that due to to the ongoing harrassment I am receiving from members of the Warlords, and some very specific other concerns, that it is highly likely I will be involving the Police in this matter. Therefore I will say nothing more on this case.

Well I am sorry to hear folk had a bad time at the show
My own 2p's worth is that it was another good show
I & the 18 year old lad with me had fun, managed to play in 3 games, managed to skim about half the hall as there is never enough time to see everything [2.30pm and I'd only just made it as far as the Frothers Bee Waggle Dance game – fantastic fun]
Spent some money
Saw some friends
Not sure I could ask for more from the Warlords
& if they run it next year I will be back again

Having looked at most of the "public" comments my thoughts are that the majority of gripes are outside the Warlords control.
Whilst Salute in wargames terms is MASSIVE, in terms of Excel its small fry!
Terms and conditions dictated by the venue.
Not forgetting that we have to run the gauntlet of the sports fascists ( London Marathon).
We are no longer in the 'comfortable editorial control' of the bulk of UK conventions we're in the big league.
I have been going to Salute long enough to remember the events JT refers to and am amazed at the shear effort put in by the volunteer warlords ( mostly amateurs )and the amount of hard labour to produce such a show.

Salute is what it is .
Not one convention to satisfy them all.

Guy T

Hi, this was my 2nd Salute and am happy to say it was a great day out :-)

Given the sheer scale of the event and the amount of attendees the organisers did a great job. Sorry to hear some folks didn't have as good a day as i did and hope it doesn't put them off attending in the future.

Looking forward to next year, many thanks to the organisers for all the hard work that went into getting the show organised!
Nick

I rocked up at 10:30 wth the foresight to have pre-booked tickets. Got in almost straight away and had a good day. There seemed to be an awful lot more new stuff around than previous years, which I consider to be a plus.

Picked up everything I wanted, as well as lots of bits that I'd occasionally mused about, but had never seen in local shops.

My mates who didn't get a ticket got put in the spare hall queue, but weren't vocal about any disquiet it caused.

Overall a really good day.

Oh and Jimlad- the tone of your posts just makes you sound like you have an axe to grind and that is affecting your credibility. Maybe you need to relax, perhaps play a game.

Leigh

Ooh, guns, guns, guns. C'mon Sal, the Tigers are playing….tonite!

Mr. Treadaway's comments remind me of those 1970,s B&B (Bed & Breakfast) landladies who if you dared comment, question or heaven forbid make a complaint, you would find your bags packed and on the doorstep next time you'd been out. It is unreasonable to expect some degree of "professionalism" for your £11.00 GBP especially as this is the (self-appointed) "showcase" of the hobby. Is it really? Just because it's in London? Or in a Big hall doesn't make it so for me. Or perhaps having overpriced food and parking qualifies it.

The fact that so many people, including me, know not to bother turning up until at least 10:30 and more like 11:00 in order to not stand around for ages really says it all.
We had a coffee and then more or less walked straight in.

Blaming ExCel and their staff is pretty lame – do Warlords meet up with these people prior to the event and do they contact them afterwards in order to address any concerns or problems.

Warlords could have checked peoples tickets in the queues quite easily by breaking them down into smaller blocks. Have you never been to Disney or Universal the Q's can been vast but they keep people moving (albeit from one Q to another Q) and it keeps folks mind off how long it's taking.

You could have done the same with the later arrivals. Instead of having 4 people trying to take everyone's money at the entrance why not go down the queue and take their money? Break the punters up into batches of 30-40 – it isn't rocket science!

I didn't see any better display or participation games than I've seen at many other shows. Trader wise other than a few non-UK companies it was the same old lot. The lighting was awful.

Personally I recommend a visit to Crisis in Antwerp as a far better bet.

Better atmosphere. Run by the jolly nice people from The Tin Soldier Club. With excellent Coffee, nice chocolates, superb Beer and mayo on your chips!

Ok, so now I know not to bother with Salute next year. The attitude described by Jim on the Warlords forum and furthered here by John is not good.
It is not like a pub conversation at all John, Warlord members are being abusive about paying customers, without whom there is no show and as someone with a background in sales and marketing I would suggest a little more restraint.
I also don't think it's right to criticise Jim for making the comments of Warlords members known. If you don't want people to find out what has been said…don't say it in writing on the internet.
(It also made me laugh that John insists that it is breaking Warlord forum rules not to use your real name, but Great Toad says that is his name on the Warlord forums! I presume that was a deed poll change Mr Toad ;P )

@Jimlad48

Have you considered the virtues of Solo gaming?

drumcharry: I'll comment on this as its a separate issue. a man who calls himself Great Toad on this forum also calls himself Great Toad on the warlords internal forum where he displays his 'real' name AS WELL. Here – like so many – he chooses not to use his real name. I always choose that route: as I always say "own your own opinioins". Jimlad did not use his name on the warlords internal forum – when I checked the account was signed : not his full name (them's is the rules…).

But silly pen names: it's just not something I choose to do.

On the other point, the Warlords internal forum is not "the internet" and is as private as a private email conversation (or even a hand written letter): no more, no less. if people choose to publish any of those items more broadly than their original audience, then that is breaking a confidence. Pure and simple. No moral ambiguity there (in my opinion).

But I'm not going to sweat it: I really don't care what was said in private as – unlike James W – I know the people involved and trust how they think. They are good people letting off steamM that's all.

But why should you take my word for it? Or anyone else at the Warlords?

All I can offer you all is what I offered earlier: reputation. As I said earlier, the Warlords have, over the decades, adressed any and all issues that have arrisen over Salute. That's why the show has become what it is. They have never blamed others for their own shortcomings (why didn't we spot the lift problems at Salute 2000? lack of experience and foresight from the Warlords committee – of which I was a part – is the reason . Our reputation says the Warlords learns from their own mistakes and fixed them). They just fix them.

If you like Salute, I for one am very pleased: I put many years of my life into helping organise it. If you don't (or can't) go that's a shame: you've missed out (I humbly suggest). If you've gone and didn't like it, each to their own: you can't please all of the people all of the time.

John T