"Now That's Good Shooting....." Topic

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British sniper shoots a suicide bomber at 850m, resultant explosion takes out five other Taliban….

Maybe they had just found the vest and were going to turn it in.

Are you a ?

Flickingwargamer – The target was WEARING the vest and was armed. The snipers' unit was 'in contact' hence they were being fired upon.

I think there's no doubt they were combatants.

TelesticWarrior – leaving aside the fact you're taking Russia Today at face value, I think my record in being critical of the standard of US target evaluation speaks for itself….

But shooting suicide bombers? – can't happen often enough.

And you'll find most Afghans will agree with me.

And you'll find most Afghans will agree with me.

Nah, I think you'll find that

leaving aside the fact you're taking Russia Today at face value, I think my record in being critical of the standard of US target evaluation speaks for itself….

LOL, can you appreciate the irony of taking the suicide bomber story at face value but yet having the temerity to question a far more widely reported story (with clear video evidence, and multiple eye-witness corroboration, as well as death certificates for the journalists) of the helicopter massacre?

Wow, someone's busting Stu's balls over being a bloodthirsty warmonger !?

Here's a hint, TelesticWarrior – you want to randomly bitch about stupid things that show your utter failure to grasp the realities of war, and for that matter, life; bitch at me. I am the bloodthirstiest hawk you are ever likely to encounter.

While you're bitching at me though, remember that my father's generation and that of your ancestors too, spent the early part of the '40s basically burning every city in Europe to the ground, women and children, innocent journalists and all so that you can be free to spout your pacifist idiocy. You benefit from that blood every day, maybe you should have some respect.
-Kle.

P.S. – I'm a worthless idiot, I've never served. Too stupid when I was young, too weak and incapable once I finally got a clue. However, until and unless you've ever been in combat and had to make those choices under fire, maybe give our brave and strong the benefit of a doubt. The West has become so much 'nicer' in it's conduct of war than any other civilization has ever been as to make comparisons ridiculous.

Stu – yes, that was some brilliant shooting.
It's the sort of thing I only expect to see in videogames!
-Kle.

I am the bloodthirstiest hawk you are ever likely to encounter.

I stand corrected, .

You benefit from that blood every day, maybe you should have some respect.

LOL now you are trying to tar me with your delusion. If you want to believe in

Bangorstu-
Good shooting. It is just a shame that only 5 were killed in the resulting explosion.

T/W:
"I suppose you think thats good shooting too."

It actually looked like "good shooting" skills. All targets down. I cannot speak to the process of the decision to engage. Not showing what the targets were doing before hand nor what the pilots saw them do leads me to suspect the motive behind the clip. The TV source does not lend credence. Also, with the source being an accused serial rapist and on the run from espionage charges the waters are further muddied.

TelesticWarrior I suppose you think the suicide bombers take care in selecting their targets to ensure there are no women or children in the area before they detonate the bomb

or did the Taliban issue a warning to those people in the world trade buildings and other targets before crashing the aircraft into them after having allowed all the passengers off first

I suppose you think thats good shooting too.

Yup. You have to remember to lead them less.

Zone of control,

My point wasn't that it was good shooting or not, it is questioning whether it was a good shot or not is even important when we are talking about the slaughter of children and reporters armed only with camera's. War is not a game.
The waters are not "muddied" in the helicopter example. An hour or so of research on your own will show you that the helicopter atrocity is very well documented, there is no doubt cast at all.

55th Division,
Sigh. No, suicide bombers do not carefully select their targets. What is the point of your question? Are you suggesting that U.S/British military forces are to be excused from atrocities because their enemies are also guilty of atrocities?
Also, do you have any evidence at all for your claim that the Taliban took down the WTC?

55th division – it wans't the Taliban that took out the WTC.

TelesticWarrior – the taliban are an ethnically Pasthun organisation.

Most of the Afghan population aren't Pasthun and most regard the Western forces as a necessary evil.

Doubtless they'll be glad when we've gone, but we've trained up the ANA to deal with the Taliban threat.

I expect you regard the Taliban as freedom fighters and ignore the awkward fact that this week they've been targeting their fellow Afghans.

Most Afghan deaths are caused by the Taliban, not Western forces.

What has the occupation achieved? Well we got OBL, and the Afghans have benefited from massive investment, a huge increase in educational attainment and a similarly huge increase in life expectancy, mainly because of decrease sin child mortality.

Note the Taliban have a charming habit of murdering teachers and attacking foreign medical teams.

Now how is shooting a combatant an atrocity?

Just wondering….

Telestic warrior, sounds like your opinion of what the Afghans think comes straight from the liberal left press, not actually having your feet on the ground chatting to them. Indeed you probably cheer when the taliban use Afghan civilians a human shields. Yes Western forces have made mistakes and the chaps involved are hauled infront of the legal system. We do not target random civilians in the same way your friends the taliban do.

Folks like you still spout on about the baby milk factory of Gulf War one fame, remember the one with a hand written sign at the front gate, with two layers of security fence, guard towers and camouflage roofs! And remember at every Taliban meeting there will always be a bride!

Tally Ho!

This thread is not going to end well (OK, it is already VERY unwell)

Well I was merely trying to applaud a sniper for not only showing his understanding of how pressed our defence budget is – six bad guys for one bullet is exceptional economy – but also the feat of hitting a target at 850ish metres.

The fact he's also killed someone (Taliban machine-gunner…doubtless really a social worker) at 1,3km is amazing.

Nickinsomerset – please do not accuse the liberal left press of the thinking that TelesticWarrior is spouting. Even they aren't that delusional to think that shooting a combatant in the middle of a firefight is a direct link to atrocities committed elsewhere. They are not that stupid.

I am a former Marine with three of my four kids having or are serving in the military. (two of whom have "chatted" directly with the Afghans) I am also proud to call my self a liberal; so please Nick just because someone spouts of with some fringe left-wing lunatic nonsense about the evils of the west on the poor oppressed people of the third world don't blame it on the "liberal" press and I won't blame the rantings of a fringe right-wing lunatic on the "conservative" press. TelesticWarrior has made a choice to be delusion and the fault is purely his own.

The clip of the chopper pilot shooting the non-combatants is real and was a tragedy. But it was not done out of malice towards the non-combatants. It was caused by the chopper pilot reacting to an ambush on troops in the area and the information he was given about the possible targets he should be after. He made a mistake that got innocents killed which unfortunately happens in war. Suicide bombers are making a choice to deliberately target non-combatants as well as combatants with equal disdain for life and the two should never be compared as the same. It is insulting at best.

Oh yeah, and that was a damn good shot!

LOL i think you're right Dynaman.

nickinsomerset,
as usual with you people you just make up stuff that I haven't said or never would say. I am not a fan of the press full stop, left or right. You should Google the phrase "strawman argument" and learn something important today.

Bangorstu,
despite my attack on you in my first post, you can actually construct anything resembling an adult argument. You seem like a reasonable guy, To address your post;

Why on earth would you possibly assume that I think the Taliban are freedom fighters? I know how vile most of them are, and I am aware of how many Afghans they have killed.
It is possible (note the word possible) that some benefits have arisen from our forces being in that country, but "necessary evil" is not really an argument that I can buy into. Is this another false dichomoty? You seem to be offering the Afghan people a sandwich and asking them to enjoy one half of it because it has more nutrients in it.

P.S. My comments about atrocities concerned the helicopter attack, not your original story about the sniper. Targeting multiple civilians and cowardly slaughtering them from over a mile away from a helicopter is indeed an atrocity.

Cheers,
TW

That's what rolling boxcars looks like.

But it was not done out of malice towards the non-combatants. It was caused by the chopper pilot reacting to an ambush on troops in the area and the information he was given about the possible targets he should be after. He made a mistake that got innocents killed which unfortunately happens in war.

And yet another apologist for psychopathy and atrocities emerges on this thread. Um, did you even listen to the audio of the pilots and the head-quarters Staff? Truly sick. If you apologise for this then you are a sick in the head too.

Telistic. I suggest you find an unedited version of that tape. It shows people moving in and out of that group with AKs.

And yes, darn good shooting.

TW in the same way that you take an achievement (5 Enemy dead with one round at 850m) and try to turn it on its head spouting stuff about Western atrocities quoting an incident in which civilians died, not because the pilot saw them and said look some civilians, great I am going to shoot at them but because of a mix up in the situation.

I am by no means poor!

Tally Ho!

TW – - So you launch a generalization with "you guys" and then pull out that THEY need to look up a particular fallacious argument.

You have credibility issues – your original post was an Ad Hominem attack ("are you a psychopath?") followed up with Bad Analogy.

Maybe you should research fallacious arguments yourself.

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It was a phenominal shot to hit a man sized target at that range (with an element of luck, as it only takes a small fluctuation in wind along the route to deviate te trajectory).

His target was identified as carrying a machine gun, and was "…moving to a firing position" prior to opening fire [professional assessment by the sniper from a position of being there].

From the report, it sounds like he was as surprised as the result as the next man:

The sniper engaged him and the guy exploded. There was a pause on the radio and the sniper said, 'I think I've just shot a suicide bomber'. The rest of them were killed in the blast.

The fact that a second vest was found nearby would seem to corroborate the interpretation, and indicate that the facts were verified by a section who went to investigate first hand. That can't have been a pleasant job.

@ Mardaddy

Well spotted, & a voice of reason :)

TW went straight off topic, with his OP!

2 different events bearing no relation to each other!

Wow, I read this in the morning before I got to work and didn't have a chance to respond. Since TW is now in the dog house I guess I will never get an answer to what I was going to say.

Bangorstu made a factual statement- the shooter hit a difficult target- an enemy combatant, in a war, at over 1.3km. That is by definition a 'good shot.' It implies no values to the shooter or his politics. Had he missed his target, that, by definition, would be a 'bad shot.' He described the shot- not the motives of the shooter. Good men can make bad shots, bad men can make good shots. That doesn't change the factual point Bangorstu was making.

By shooting this target, the British soldier most likely saved lives- be they civilian, or his own compatriots. That the target was wearing a suicide vest was the target's choice, not the shooter's. I don't see how calling Bangorstu a psychopath is in any way called for. He didn't call out a civilian shooting, where a true psychopath indiscriminately shot someone for no reason. He called out a shot, made by a soldier, in a war.

I find it ironic that the shooter was in the UK military, the military of the nation that according to TW's profile he currently resides in, and TW responds with a personal attack on Bangorstu by calling him a psychopath and then links to a completely different incident by a completely different nation's military.

Why do that?

Just to hate on Americans?

If you want to point out American atrocities, why call out that particular one? There's a whole list of American atrocities you could have listed-

My Lai, Abu Graib, No Gun Ri, The Moro Villagers, Wounded Knee, Sand Creek, Andersonville, and many more.

In war, people do bad things. Sometimes they reach their limit and snap, sometimes they are just sick individuals, but it happens.

To condemn an entire country by the atrocities of war seems like a willfully ignorant choice to make, but it seems to be the populist choice.

Since the original annotation was of a British soldier doing the shooting, why didn't you pick one of the many atrocities the British army has committed? There are many more to choose from since your country is older than ours. Unlike you, I don't choose to condemn your country for them. I love the UK and have traveled there many times. I love your history, your culture and your people. I don't hold any of you personally responsible for crimes individual members of your military may have committed.

As a matter of fact, the most recent trip I made to the UK, I was staying at a hotel where I met an older gentleman in a tuxedo. He told me of his days in the British army during the lead up to D-Day. His granddaughter was getting married and I congratulated him. He noted that I was American and insisted that I and my business partner come to the wedding because, as he said, "You yanks saved our ass in World War Two and I will always show gratitude to Americans." Now I was a little embarrassed, as while I appreciated his sentiment, I had nothing to do with World War Two (my own father was barely out of diapers then), and while I did serve my nation's military in the Navy, I frankly see no reason why anyone in the UK owes me anything. You see, I believe that a nation is great because of what it does, not because of what it did, and while we were partners with the UK in WWII, I feel that we need to work every day to earn each others' respect moving forward.

However, I was so en-heartened to see a beautiful older gentleman who appreciates our nations mutual friendship when so many of the younger generation seem to condemn the US out of hand as you seem to have done here.

We have so much more uniting us than separating us, and yet you willfully choose to condemn us for actions that you point out that, while lamentable, have nothing to do with the average citizen or even the average soldier serving today. All we can do as a democracy is to hold those who commit atrocities accountable for their actions and seek to do our best to prevent them in the future.

What any of that has to do with a single sniper shooting an enemy combatant on a field of battle and someone commenting 'good shot' is beyond me.

@ TGerritsen

Brilliant analysis :)

Good Shoot'n by a Limey Sniper and good post by my bro stu … And as stu noted he has very critical of the US in many cases, and he & I have "debated"/jousted here many times … But some of your comments seem like something I would say stu ! Well it is "April Fools Day" here in the US … stu .. are you funn'n me ?

And good comments TGerritsen … And BTW No Gun Ri was proved to be a false event … Regardless … TelesticWarrior, I strongly think you are incorrect on many of you comments. But you are welcomed to you opinion … But you are in the "Dawg Haus" so … I guess that speaks for itself. But you fall into the category of another non-America US hater … So most of us will take you comments will less than the grain of salt that it deserves … IMO …

"Klebert L Hall
Wow, someone's busting Stu's balls over being a bloodthirsty warmonger !?"

"Here's a hint, TelesticWarrior – you want to randomly bitch about stupid things that show your utter failure to grasp the realities of war, and for that matter, life; bitch at me. I am the bloodthirstiest hawk you are ever likely to encounter." … Very good comments ! I've said many times, bad things happen in war. That is why we should only go to war as a last result. However, AQ, UBL, etc., didn't seem to see it in the same light as I or many others … As a Mech[M113] Infantry Company Commander in the US ARMY['79-'90]. My Callsign was "WARHAWK 6" or just HAWK 6" … I didn't select it, it was the Company's call sign/nick name long before I took command. But some thought is was appropriate, as based on previously being a PL in the 101 then Air Ops Officer. I had the predilections, of dismounted night attacks and calling in CAS, Gunships, FA etc. every chance I had. Again, @@ TelesticWarrior, you never have served in the Military, have you ? And I think you should change your name to TelesticDove. As it looks like to me, you are not a warrior and are not worthy of that title … that many others are or were …

I actually think that Americans are quite nice, founded on my experience living and working with them both in peace and war, but don't tell them I said that!

Tally Ho!

Oh … and what Helicopter attack is being referred to here ? And BTW, my Father served as SGT(decorated -S/star, BS, PH) in an Infantry unit in the WWII ETO. Wounded in the Lorraine, by German mortar fire … He was deaf in one ear and lost some movement of his left wrist for the rest of his life. He was not initiatly happy with my choice to join the Infantry, as he already knew what I might experience … Again, TW, you don't deserve to use the term warrior in your screen name …

I have to agree with TGerritsen. Massacres and atrocities always happen in war, and their numbers always coincide with the scope and total manpower involvement of the war. With that said, the massacres are a natural result of war, but are rarely systematic (unlike the Holocaust or the Japanese slaughter of conquered civilians and POWs).

nickinsomerset, as an American leftist I have to disagree with you on some matters. Only a few people do not realize that war is a necessary evil. Likewise, understanding the geopolitical issues leading up to 9/11 while desiring that bastard's head on a pike for attacking us are not mutually exclusive.

Most Americans, unless they were soldiers, understand what lead up to 9/11 plus other terrorists attack and geopolitical situations, etc. … don't really know whether war is a necessary evil or not … 9/11, and other terrorists attacks IMO made it necessary …

Legion 4, careful treading there…

Peoples stands/views/arguments/positions do not have to come from a position of "been there" to be valid, similarly, people who have "been there" are not automatically correct. It is possible for ANYONE to have an agenda, so arguments coming from a, "position of authority," do not matter – facts matter.

Facts are facts even if they come from a poor source. Best way to dismantle a poor or uninformed argument is to invalidate it based on the facts, not attack the experiences of the other or claim one knows/experienced first-hand more than they. Stick to facts, facts have no agenda – they are what they are.

Coming from a 21+yr USMC retired combat vet myself, Desert Storm with 1st CEB and Somalia with 3/1.

Agreed Mardaddy … what you said is very true … I should have worded my post better … thank you …

Maybe they had just found the vest and were going to turn it in.

ROFL

Wow, someone's busting Stu's balls over being a bloodthirsty warmonger !?

No kidding!!

Stu, you feeling OK? Feels kinda like I woke up in bizarro-world today!

Anyway will any rules now incorporate a chance that a sniper could inflict 5 casualties with a single shot?!!

Tally Ho!

That's pretty much how many of my games turn out: Turn One, move onto the table with a sure fire, can't miss plan. Then, when they're still bunched in the entry zone, my opponent rolls unbelievably high and takes out half my troops.

"Anyway will any rules now incorporate a chance that a sniper could inflict 5 casualties with a single shot?!!"

Arlen Specter already came up with that concept in the JFK assassination report. And yes, I will publicly admit that I am from PA.

Oh great, I come to this thread to see a nice little flamewar about modern politics and terrorism and someone has to bring up JFK…

Nice shot.

Well done!

"It is understood the L/Cpl was using an L115A3 gun, the Army's most powerful sniper weapon."
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.338 Lapua Magnum L115A3 it would appear:
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I guess the Brits don't field any Barrett light .50s?

With that kind of hitting power, who needs a .50 cal?

The British hold the record for the longest sniper shot – 2475m

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I'm astonished.

Truly astonished, I tell you.

I thought that Telestic Warrior was going to blame it on Prince Phillip, mounted on Shergar, with Lord Lucan as ghillie, while standing on the grassy knoll.

That would be an impressive shot from horseback, Mark!

'Stu, you blood thirsty right winger! Must be the first time anyone's called you that around here.

I don't feel up to debating the pros and cons of .338 Lapua versus .50BMG. Just that they do have some uses in common (sniping at 1000+m).

It helps to start out at high altitude, like the world-record shot did.

Lion,

As you're here, I replied to you on this thread, but I don't think you saw it: TMP link