"15mm Japanese School Girl Tank Crew" Topic

Why are they in sailor suits if they are driving tanks? Do they drive the tanks into the sea and duke it out underwater?

What taskforce58 said, but, actually, in this particular show all of the academies are boarding schools built on top of aircraft carriers, so the girls literally are also sailors. The unrealistically short skirts, unfortunately, seem to be a now common trope in anime dating back to Sailor Moon and her ilk, though in the thankful absence of fanservice shots, they are what the Japanese call "iron skirts". I consider it no better or worse than Western portrayals of high schoolers running about with bare midriffs.

Also, I would advise any fans of the show to avoid the "Water War" and "Survival War" OVAs. They seem to be trying to make up for the absence of fanservice in the series proper, which is a shame, because there are some really funny moments with Yukari and the History Club hidden among the garbage.

That said, it's worth remembering that Japan's age of majority used to be 13, so the heroes of coming-of-age stories (both raunchy and clean) tend to be younger overall. (I think it's 18 now, but cultural tropes take a long time to die.)

The age of majority (voting, drinking, smoking) is now 20, but the, ah, other age is, regrettably, still 13, hence the continuation of certain cultural tropes. Heck, even when they're not going for fanservice, characters often look older than they are. For example, canonically, Haku from Spirited Away is supposed to be 12.

I rather enjoyed watching Rabbit Team quoting Monty Python in Survival War….

Ok two things..

First, what is fan service?

Second, age of consent in Japan is 13??? Are you fking kidding me? No wonder I don't like anime. It REALLY IS child porn!

@OmniJackal
FanService: where the creator has "pleased the fans" with gratuitous titillation.

their age is 13 that is way to low… In New Zealand its 16..

LGW

As mentioned, they have raised the age of consent, I suspect quite a while ago.

For those not here for the "OMG skirts" content, a translation of the unclear emblems:

5 and 9 are both labeled "France". 9 has an FFI cross.
1 "Viking" is Norway.
11 "Yogurt" is Bulgaria.

My bad on calling Oorai "Japanese". Though I don't think I'm alone in that misunderstanding, esp. considering what they do with their StuG.

I also had to google 'Fanservice'. Not something I was familiar with. Thank the wiki-lords…

So: Schoolgirls and tanks… I'm not going to wade in here with what I really think, but I would say this.

First off, let's all remember that the age of sexual consent is not the same throughout the world. Even within Europe it varies by several years. I don't know what it currently is in Japan and largely don't care. However, that having been said, it doesn't mean I have to 'pander' to these variances in local legislation by accessing material that is constructed in one culture and viewing it in my own culture.

Just my choice, I guess.

And then there's the whole ‘justification' issue.

As wargamers we already have to answer a lot of questions – and rightly so – defending out positions on things like trivialising warfare and the deaths of millions etc etc etc. Don't get me wrong: I think we have to justify the games we play to the general public who often look at us confounded and/or horrified (delete as) when we say that, as grown men, we play games with toy soldiers.

Sure, we refer them to Wells and others and we talk about how I (for one) have met fewer 'war-mongers' amongst the educated, historically savvy wargaming world than I have out on the streets of Britain. We speak about the rewards of engaging with history and honouring great deeds and bravery in the past. We try and side step and explain the accusations of the glorification of heinous crimes and empire building at the expense of indigenous populations.

All of that.

And then we have to defend this as well? Quasi-porn images of prepubescent girls in tanks… ?

Don't get me wrong: I'm assured that there's no harm in it.

Directly.

No one is going out and doing ‘bad stuff' just because they've seen a few episodes of this and I suspect not many in the wargaming community is saying that anybody is. I'm certainly not.

But, from my experience of doing (for example) radio and TV interviews with the BBC for Salute (for example) how I would justify – how we all justify – this to the larger non-wargaming world is beyond me and, to be honest, I'd rather not have to.

But guys: buy what you like. It is, after all, a free world.

John T

Right, I just emailed Nic at Eureka asking him to raise my order from 10 to 50. I want to run convention games of GuP, plus I have at least three friends (of whom two are female) who are anime fans but not war gamers who would love to get display models/dioramas based on the show.

Spread the word, folks, let us get the figures made.

Well, John, my goal is to run GuP games at a convention aimed at all Japanese culture (origami to cosplay) to get people interested in miniature gaming. It's the tanks I'll be struggling to justify to the audience! ;-)

Sailor suit is actually a fairly common style of school girl uniform in Japan in real life.

link

Fair enough, but look at where the hemline is on the real uniforms:

Second, age of consent in Japan is 13??? Are you fking kidding me?

I really wish I were. It's one of the things people don't mention when they go on about how polite and safe and wonderful Japan is.

No wonder I don't like anime. It REALLY IS child porn!

This, however, is an uninformed generalisation. Anime, as the term is used in English, refers to any animated cartoon from Japan. The Japanese use animation for a great deal of things. Some of it, unfortunately, is porn. Most of it is not. Some cartoons contain fanservice, and that is regrettable. Some Western films and shows contain fanservice, and that is also regrettable.

If you doubt me, check out any of the canon of Studio Ghibli.

And then we have to defend this as well? Quasi-porn images of prepubescent girls in tanks… ?

Short skirts may be many things: tasteless, regrettable, a blot on an otherwise fine series which I suspect you have not seen, but calling them quasi-porn seems a bit of a stretch, as is the assumption that the attraction of GUP lies in that direction, rather than because, I don't know, it's lovingly detailed tanks, exciting bloodless battles, historical in-jokes, likeable characters, feel good storyline ("Operation Kelly's Heroes go!"), etc, etc. and now some gamers want to game a story they enjoyed. Is that so hard to understand? The accusations and generalizations flying around this thread disappoint me.

Well, John, my goal is to run GuP games at a convention aimed at all Japanese culture (origami to cosplay) to get people interested in miniature gaming. It's the tanks I'll be struggling to justify to the audience! ;-)

Thomas – you're rather making my point for me. I have already had to justify the tanks and other toys in interviews. I didn't – and don't – want to have to justify the 'jail bait' as well.

And – with the best will in the world – I'm not talking about justifying it to a show aimed at Japanese culture. Any more than I'd be talking about justifying it to a cosplay or anime audience. I was talking about justifying it to the general press, the media and the world at large.

Take a look at the photograph that khurasanminiatures has just posted and then 'contrast and compare'. Seriously, can you not see the point I was making?

John T

There are people wargaming this show. I've seen models painted specifically for this.

So, if I read aright, you're saying justifying war gaming to the mainstream culture is hard enough without also having to justify anime while you're at it? Sorry, I imagine that'd be tough*. I've never had to justify either before, though I suppose if anyone queried war gaming I would simply note that sportsball is widely accepted, but, unlike war gaming, does actually result in injuries and death on a regular basis.

*realised this could come off as sarcasm. It's not.

I really don't get this thread.

I never developed an interest in much anime- Ghost in the Shell and Trigun were about as far as I got. I seriously don't see the indignation here, though. You have a group of girls in short skirts in pretty static poses (assuming they follow more or less to the art, above). There are more mainstream minis out there in skin-tight bodysuits with far more provactive posturing than this with orders of magnitide LESS backlash.

This…this is the gosh-darned weirdest thread I've seen on TMP to date, and nearly the weirdest thing (leaving out a guy who was nearly comissioned to do a vivisection diorama…) I've seen on the site, period. Not so much the original topic, which was merely a bit odd, but it's gone in some…uncomfortable directions.

That said, I kind of made an effort to get into Space Battleship Yamato. I couldn't. Anime is frequently too ridiculous to watch for more than a few minutes without laughing. My ex-girlfriend brought me into our school's anime club my junior year…blegh. I suspect it was bad anime, but the trauma of the sheer terribleness lives on.

I think I'll forever be a straight-edge traditionalist, which probably explains most of this. Based on some of the things I've just read, I'll be staying very far away from Japan.

"There are more mainstream minis out there in skin-tight bodysuits with far more provactive posturing than this with orders of magnitide LESS backlash." -- so the fact that they are depictions of children doesnt matter to you???

@ Dunadan

Don't get me wrong. I do believe people should be free to play with whatever they like. As I said earlier on when I was restraining from saying anything, this just isn't my glass of tea: fair enough, eh? Each to their own etc etc.

After all, there's an argument that runs that my parent's generation fought a war against Nazism and the tyranical culture of Imperial Japan (but, er…, not Stalinism…) just so that people like you and me can have the freedom to – amongst other things – play innocent games with toy tanks (or anything else, for that matter).

Including Japanese school girls.

Rock on Freedom. Proudly fought for and won.

But just because we can do something, does it always follow that we should?

Personally, I have simply found, as I said earlier, that it is hard to justify the wargaming (and I have had to do that*) in my past encounters with the press. And I find this sort of thing just piles on the pressure.

What kind of pressure? R Mark Davies makes a photographic – and quite pointed – reference which I hope those outside of the UK will understand.

But then, while I'm on the subject of public opprobrium, I also find the inclusion on this forum of a thread called 'needs more boobies' to be very hard to justify (and, because of that, not one I would open at work). Fortunately, the nature of the postings, almost entirely monopolised, of course, by Armand 'Tango01', means that, pretty as some of the sculpts are, I have no real interest in looking at them anyway.

On a positive note, fortunately, the majority of those featured sculpts are at least purporting to be adult women, not school girls (irrespective of what they are – or are nearly – wearing: I'm no prude – it's just the age thing that gets me).

But hey: I'm invoking 'mission creep' on this thread on an enormous level.

So I'll end up with this and try and say no more. To summarise:

1) I feel that the subject is quite unsettling but each to their own.

2) I don't think it overtly encourages anything unpleasant as a wargames model or a toy to paint, but I won't be watching the programme.

3) It makes it even harder – in my actual experience – to justify our hobby (largely grown men playing with toy soldiers) to an already sceptical (and often hostile) world.

'Nuff said.

John T
(ex president of the South London Warlords (hence the press interviews, just to give it some context)

* ok, you can say 'had to' was a choice of mine: I chose to be on the committee of a club running a show and I did not decline an interview to promote out hobby but… I hope you can see where I'm coming from

EDIT:

There are people wargaming this show. I've seen models painted specifically for this.

I'm sure they do. I've wargamed this werelords.com/ufo/index.htm complete with ladies in silver suits with purple S&M wigs (though I just play games with the space ships but the ladies were featured heavily in the show…). Like I said, I'm no prude. But they are ADULTS. The cartoons of Japanese School Girls are… self explanatory…

Sure it would, if the concept art above was even remotely sexual, but it's not. It's a silly-looking cartoon with characters whose eyes are the size of dinner plates.

If you want to be offended about something, start with depictions of women in American media and the effect that has on young girls' body image and go from there.

I'm not at all saying you haven't the right to feel uncomfortable about these; just that it seems disproportionate to similar themes we've seen.

my point was that those other themes are not depictions of children. i think you're really kidding yourself if you are saying that those illustrations of little girls with long legs in microscopic skirts are 'not even remotely sexual.'

No, I'm not kidding myself, because all you see are legs. There's no exageration of other female characteristics in an attempt to draw the eye. It's like being attracted to one of those bobble-headed hulu dancers people stick on their car dashboards.

This Kingdom Death thread had vastly more overt (and disturbing content) than this even comes close to, and didn't break 20 replies:

TMP link

"all you see are legs" – you don't need nudity in order to be sexually suggestive, that's what the 'suggestive' part means. these drawings are definitely exaggerating the girls legs in order to draw the eye…. compare them to the picture of real schoolgirls in this thread. again the kingdom death thread does not sexualize children.

To my original point of disproportionate, photos of minis in the kingdom death thread stop just short of depicting rape. That' s a lesser offense?

I'm not sure we're exactly that far apart on this Aryan, if you note up above I mentioned that I could see why folks would be uncomfortable with this. But honestly, that Kingdom Death stuff makes this look pedestrian.

EDIT: and honestly, there were some pieces in that Kingdom Monster KS I would have liked to have, I just didn't feel comfortable supporting the line as a whole.

so … what are we saying here? i'm not allowed to be offended by the sexualization of children because OTHER STUFF EXISTS?

Whatever dude, enjoy your freak out over the cartoon character.

Sailor suit is actually a fairly common style of school girl uniform in Japan in real life.

Fair enough, but look at where the hemline is on the real uniforms:

When I was in Japan, I saw hemlines on those school uniforms ranging from just below the knee to just long enough to cover if the girl doesn't move.

During the day, most school regs require a fairly modest length.

After school the girls are often rolling their skirts up to a more fashionable length. Because it seems that all Japanese are 'leg' types.

And that doesn't account for those young ladies who hit growth spurts and a skirt that was 5cm below the knee at the start of school in April is now 10cm above the knee in August. If not higher.

But dude, GuP is most emphatically not underage children in sexually explicit poses. It's not even children of the age of consent in sexually explicit poses.

THERE ARE NOT EVEN PANTY-SHOTS. FULL STOP.

It's panzerporn, not kiddy porn. Every single tank is lovingly depicted in all its glory (or lack thereof). The girls are only there to operate the tanks and provide a source of NON-SEXUAL drama. Well, except maybe the love they have for the tanks…

well, you enjoy whatever it is about this that you like too….

and i didn't freak out. i said was that you were making an apples and oranges comparison, which you were. you still don't seem to be able to see the difference between sexual female images and sexual female child images.

meanwhile, there are not even panty shots full stop!!! ok everyone the coast is clear!!! what a world.

"well, you enjoy whatever it is about this that you like too…."

I'll just leave that here. FANTASTIC! :)

Ok Gentlemen I think we need to take a chill pill.

for one thing I do not condone any sexualising of children.
This thread was set up so we could have 15mm Japanese school girl tank crews" for the GuP games my kids and I want to play.

15mm scale your not going to see much in regards to the mini so its not a big deal.

If your not happy with the topic there are plenty of other topics that may have something you like how about you visit them.

LGW

Jeff. Thanks for including the previous link. Yeah, some of that is pretty ghastly too. I've got a book of Hieronymus Bosch‎: some of the illustrations in that are not very nice either.

Mind you, my choice is to own the book and yet not to have reproductions of the artworks as posters on my wall: too unsettling for that.

Similarly, whilst the sculpts in the link you provided are universally excellent, there is no way I would want them displayed in a cabinet in my house. Far too disturbing, for me, but I respect the right of others to do so. Though I might ask them some pertinent questions about how they felt about big penis's. And pregnancy.

Because the point you've raised about obsessions with pregnancy is a good one though it muddies the water – but in a good way. At what point does a miniature depicting some sort of perceived child abuse (percieved by some, but not all, I grant you) become relevant. Depicting children under 16 years (as in school girls)? Or before the children are even born? I dunno…

A tricky one and one for philosophers to contemplate, I grant you (how many Japanese school girls can dance on the turret of a tank? Oh no, that was angels and pins…)

But when all of that is said and done, it still don't make panzer school girls in short skirts easy to explain to the BBC…*

John T

* Which was really my only point. Like huge penis sculptures and pregnant slave girls, we all should be prepared to justify what we do, shouldn't we?

How about 15mm miniatures for "Appleseed" "Robotech" "Dominion Tank Police" "New Dominion Tank Police",the following might cause some people trouble "Bubblegum" "Bubblegum Crisis" "Dirty Pair" "Dirty Pair Flash".

Which is totally fair, John. I understand why folks would be uncomfortable with the subject of the original post.

John T makes a good point, but the biggest freak outs by the general public I've seen at cons is for reenactors and steampunk cosplay.

Historical gaming tends to get a quicker pass than fantasy and SF gaming I've also noticed. Could be local.

Wow, just looked at the Kingdom Death link.

Guys, seriously that is some mother loving sheet. I totally get the issue with anime teenage girls, but put GuP and KD next to each other and there's no point in taking a bet which models will freak out Joe and Jane Public more.

And for some reason I suspect we will see more KS crud at shows than GuP. How on earth did they raise so much money??? That scares me a whole lot more.

Hello,

I am Jurgen (Flecktarn)'s fiancee and I am posting here with his agreement; I am of East Asian origin and am quite horrified by both this thread and the sexual objectification of very young women in much anime. If, as some claim, there is no sexual element to the school girls in this series, why are they depicted as wearing extremely short skirts, having Barbie doll length legs and looking "cute"? Would wearing normal length skirts or overalls and being plain make them any less relevant to the series?

Some Western men (and many Japanese men) have something of an obsession with young looking East Asian women and see them as enticingly childlike, submissive sexual objects. Obviously, this is not true for all, but it is sadly quite common; being a very petite East Asian I am only too aware of how we are often perceived and treated.

As John Treadway has said, wargaming is seen by many of us "civilians" as being a bit odd and morally questionable, although I am starting to understand it, but the idea of playing games with sexualised models of schoolgirls goes beyond odd. As seems to be so often the case, it seems that some are losing sight of their moral compass.

My question to those who have been complainig about this thread:

Do you know how big 15mm scale is?
They are tiny the detail is barely there the main thing I am wanting is female tank crews. If I had started this thread as
Cheerleader tank crews
Female tank crews
Would I have had so many negitive comments and accusations of kiddie porn. Maybe not.

I would understand some comments if the scale was to be in 28mm where the detail would be greater and chances of it being more sexually charged higher. But its not the case as they are tiny little minis that will be glued to tanks.

There is far worse out there then GuP. I certainly take offence to having people on here labeling the original post as dodgy and borderline porn. Get a grip.

LGW

Interesting. My wife is also of East Asian origin and has also become a fan of anime. She's not much of a fan of GuP, but really likes 'K-On!' and Tamayura. Both of these shows have girls in very short skirts and school uniforms, but seem to be aimed at (wait for it) …… girls!

Here are the characters in K-On!:

K-On! is about a group of girls in a school music club that form a rock band. If you search on YouTube you will find a number of videos with people playing covers of songs from the show.

Here are the protagonists of Tamayura:

This series is about a girl with a photography hobby. I sat through every episode of two seasons with my wife (she watched them at least twice through) and there is zero sexuality. As per Maricel V.: "the characters are endearing and the story is very moving."

Here is Reiko Yoshida, one of the writers for Girls und Panzer, K-on! , and Tamayura:

I typed Girls und Panzer into google.
I clicked on images.
This was near the top,
link

Before this gets stupidly out of hand, which was never the intent of the OP or I would say any of us, I couldn't disagree that there are some big issues around sexualisation of young girls in anime. In fact there's a whole world of weird that Anime and especially anime fans bring to the table. Let's not go near the whole cat ears thing!

The shame of this is that there are shows that are only reflecting the general worldwide media trend towards "sexualisation" of teen and pre teen girls, and are not really perpetrating it – and Girls und Panzer most certainly falls into this category. The ladies are all drawn with their cliche mini skirt sailor suits etc, but they don't animate these characters into sexualised behaviour or poses. For reference I would call the way Michael Bay filmed Megan Fox in the transformer movies as sexualising that actor/character (and let's not forget that her character was meant to be a high school girl).

Nor is this an Asian problem, it's far worse in the west because we don't have any big social barriers to sexual activity that exist in the East (though you can argue that sexual repression in Japan is the biggest contributing factor to all the weird sexual anime that freaks a lot of us out). Any else weirded out by seeing teen and pre teen girls "twerk"?

So yeah, there's a lot to get uptight about in Anime. But this particular one isn't one of those.

Freaking out over Anime because there are some extremes is rather weird, it's chucking the A-Team in with hardcore porn and children's television. Anime/Manga contains a whole range of genre's from sports, sci-fi, fantasy to quite disturbing porn. Let's not forget that this is animation and no animals or people were physically harmed in any way. Doesn't make some of those series/films/comics any less disturbing…

As for Jurgen's fianc้e, while I do not find young girls with short skirts a requirement in my Anime, yet it doesn't disturb me either. Heck, Hannah Montana is more disturbing in that regard, depicting a real young flesh and blood person with such sexual clothing, and that's a Disney Channel original series. I don't deny that there are men (both western and eastern) that have power fantasies about tiny women, some might even want to live their fantasies. But that problem is not only relevant with horny old men and their power fantasies, there are other individuals that have issues with distinguishing between realty and fantasy, some of that stuff involves violence. That isn't an issue with Anime or gaming, that's an issue with the mental stability of certain individuals. Now what flesh and blood CONSENTING ADULTS do in the privacy of their homes is none of my business, but if it involves either no consent or no adults, pretty hefty punishment should be meted out. Personally I'm for reenacting a certain horrific scene from American History X…

As for this 'moral compass', let's get of this high horse your on and stick with "One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated". But should we really ask ourselves "If I was a cartoon character would I…", I think the golden rule applies to real people ;-)

I do agree however that many Anime series use the girls-in-far-to-short-skirts, to such an extend that when a series doesn't do it I actually take notice (as in the series feeling more serious). In too many cases it detracts a bit from the series, just as imho the current western movie/series obsession with sex scenes, many detract from the work or even lessen it (or at least waste my time). I generally hear very little complaints about that, but Anime girls in short skirts are the devils work…

@Omnijackal, can't disagree, but Google Supergirl, or Batwoman, Miley Cyrus etc – you get worse.

It's the internet. Google any woman's first name in image search and within the first page of results if you've set the content filter off then you'll get a fair amount of porn. At least for parents if you set the basic Google content filter at the mid level that GuP pic likely wouldn't show up.

EDIT: Will also retract my comment about GuP not showing the girls in sexualised images, that link pretty much kills that! I've not seen the episode that was in, but then I've seen a lot of Anime with female characters that have the obligatory shower scene. I still stand by my comment that the show is harmless given the wider media world we live in – not saying that makes it right however!

Ok, me (Jurgen) again,

This is a scene from the series; remember that the character is a schoolgirl:

link

I do not think that expecting people to have an understanding that portraying schoolgirls in a way that plays to male fantasies may not be morally neutral is being on a "high horse"

Jurgen

Yeah, I have to agree with you there, Jurgen. While it does look like the show has some legitimate…I dunno, 'tankiness' to it, there's still the fact that anime in general can be odd, even when 'clean'.

That said, I think we've moved a pretty far way from the OP's question…

The worst part about this thread is that it is the biggest thread I've ever seen during my short time here at TMP. If only there was as much interest in miniature wargaming as there is in anime.

Don't get me wrong. I do believe people should be free to play with whatever they like. As I said earlier on when I was restraining from saying anything, this just isn't my glass of tea: fair enough, eh? Each to their own etc etc.

Fair enough. I am one quarter "Jap" as OmniJackal has been so kindly putting it (war ended 70 years ago buddy, and my "Jap" great uncles kicked ass in Germany when the US govt finally let them fight. Go for broke 442nd!), grew up with anime, and am familiar with Japanese culture(working there at the moment), so I imagine our perspectives are quite different. I definitely understand the aversion to short skirts. I myself dislike their presence, but it usually won't ruin a good series for me.

But just because we can do something, does it always follow that we should?

Sir, I am overjoyed to see such a statement made online these days. I doff my hat to you.

What kind of pressure? R Mark Davies makes a photographic – and quite pointed – reference which I hope those outside of the UK will understand.

Sorry, I do not recognize it, but I'm a youngish American.

But then, while I'm on the subject of public opprobrium, I also find the inclusion on this forum of a thread called 'needs more boobies' to be very hard to justify (and, because of that, not one I would open at work).
Agreed.

I'm trying to reconcile how Jurgen on the modern board is happy saying all Arabs can die, but his knickers are in a knot about anime girls.

How the heck did I miss there was a bath scene in GuP?

however, my point still stands. panzerporn.

I am well aware of some of the freaky that has been animated. I even own some of it.

But GuP is safe enough that I'd let a pre-teen watch.

Wow! Didn't get nearly as much fuss, when I asked sometime ago about who makes Anime SchoolGirls in 15mm so I could game "High School of the Dead". Now I know more infomation as to how they may look, I will get my order in as so as I can.