"Please Read: Member Advisory" Topic

This doesnt have anything to do with Barry Edwards,does it?

I fully support Bill and the new editors. The complaints about the gender and race of the new editors are just awful. Raglan's behavior is unacceptable-- a 29 year old posts a work-safe pic of her face and he threatens a police investigation of TMP and its members?

I mean, seriously, what are we coming to around here? Very glad Raglan was perma-banned.

Again, I welcome the new editors, and to people who want to back-seat drive, you're welcome to make your own decisions when you start running your own small business.

Agreed.

@CorSec: In the early years of my law enforcement career I attended a number of seminars on the occult; some of which were taught by probably the best known guy in the US in regards to the investigation of incidents involving devil workshop, witchcraft and the occult. Years later I ran into a colleague at another seminar and asked him about this gentleman. He said the guy lost his mind; everywhere he looked he saw signs of the occult and nefarious activity in the most innocuous objects and events. Sometimes things can consume you …

79th PA
I work in probation (25 yrs) – have seen that more than once

…I must say that I would prefer if this place stuck to the business of discussing miniatures. I don't want to see Tango, Bill, OFM or any other member, administator or contributing person disrobed, sexualised, in photoshopped vanity photos.

Save it for facebook or something.

Julia has already apologized for the one photo that some considered provocative.

These public postings and the earlier one, which was clearly meant to bait Raglan, are not examples of the editor "taking the high ground." I've said earlier, as have others, that the way this has been handled is unprofessional.

You don't think I needed to warn the members about Lord Raglan's threat?

This doesnt have anything to do with Barry Edwards,does it?

Barry Edwards was accused of making porn videos with underage girls, but the case was eventually dismissed for lack of evidence. TMP cooperated with Philippine authorities in tracking him down at one point.

Sometimes things can consume you …

That's the truth!

Teapot, meet tempest. Moron, mirror. Although I don't stifle anybody, Raglan's behavior as revealed justified a permanent ban. Now on to discussing the color of Polish dragoon handkerchiefs during June 1812, Games Workshop's latest beautiful but over priced minis, and if the sea is boiling hot, cabbages, kings and whatnot.

I have said it before, BHBR. TIG

Bill, can't type more than this right now, but you're completely right and Lord Raglan completely wrong. No nuances this time. Stand your ground.

If Lord R is professionally involved in aiding victims of paedophilia in the UK, he may be over-sensitive for a reason. There is currently a serious problem over there with gangs grooming and exploiting under-age girls for sex. There's a racial and religious component to the problem that makes it difficult for many people to speak frankly about it.

This is not that. Lord Raglan, you're wrong.

It's too bad that some TMP members can't enjoy the simple pleasure of a charming young woman who enjoys being a charming young woman. But for various reasons, some can't.

I understand that you have advised the New Editors to dial back some on the charm, and I think that's wise. Too many in this audience can't handle it.

Bill is not hiring us because of any self-interest. In fact, these jobs are helping us. I am now able to help feed my family.

Lord Raglan, please stop. There is no exploitation happening here. Bill is a good and nice person.

Oh for Pete's sake, can we just stick to freak'n wargaming!
Geez, there are clearly people who really REALLY need to get a life. Now, what are you currently painting? What is you favorite scale 15mm or 28mm? Anything then this stuff.

And the "back" photo just adds fuel to the fire.

"In fact, these jobs are helping us. I am now able to help feed my family."

Good news. And good luck to you.

I still wonder what the workload is that a part time editor with gaming experience couldn't handle? Bill, over to you.

I don't know what apalls me more: the "Yuk, yuk, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, oh look, GIRLS!" behavior of a handful of the members of this community or the idea that politely introducing two adult female editors to the community somehow constitutes sexual endangerment.

If Lord Raglan is what he claims to be, then he should be the first person to realize that sexist comments about womens' pictures on an internet forum do not constitute some sort of actionable threat. Either he has a highly over-inflated sense of his profession or (more than likely) he's not what he claims to be at all.

Oh, and I just LOVED the bit about "grooming behavior". WtF…? Apparently, Raglan thinks humans and chimps are pretty much the same damned thing.

I'm glad Bill has two editors to keep up the shop. It just so happens these two people are young women – both well over any country's defining line of adulthood. That's all the remarking that needs to be done on our two new editors, period.

The "Yuk, yuk, GIRLS!" crowd is tasteless and juvenile, but neither of those two attributes are criminal. Raglan, however, is indeed threatening people with his (probably largely imaginary) power.

It makes me wonder what Raglan thinks "appropriate" would be in this case. I suspect it's not hiring any young females at all.

After all, it's only when women are locked away in the domestic sphere, absolutely safe from any prying male eyes and immune to immature and tasteless comentary that we can know they are REALLY safe, neh Lord Raglan?

All this stuff about women working and being treated the same way as men… It's just smoke and mirrors, purposefully designed to camouflage sexual predation.

Right.

There are times when you need a dispassionate, outside perspective. I think hiring non-gamers was a savvy move.

By the way, most self-proclaimed "experts in paedophilia" are not. They are people surfing on one of the most resounding and relentless moral panics of our time.

I happen to actually be a published author and anthropologist with a fair amount of experience and several scientific publications regarding human trafficking and prostitution. You can do a search on my name and turn some of these up if you like. I only bring this up because Raglan seems to be so keen about flashing his creds.

I've actually been hired to train civil servants and cops on issues involving sexual exploitation and I can say with some degree of certainty that there is no place in the Western world where posting a foto of a recent adult female hire and welcoming them aboard would be seen by any reasonable professional as an indication of sexual exploitation.

If Raglan really is what he claims to be, he should be ashamed for consciously attemtping to muddy the waters around a very complicated and sensitive issue. And if he does indeed start sending official complaints regarding you, Bill, I'd say that you might very well have cause for a liabel suit against him, depending on what he alleges, of course.

I still wonder what the workload is that a part time editor with gaming experience couldn't handle? Bill, over to you.

Considering that Julia is already working full-time and can't keep up with everything, how could you expect a part-timer to cope?

Julia is currently handling Hobby News editing and formatting, Manufacturers Directory updating, and handling forum complaints.

Claire is doing some Hobby News, while completing her training.

Alexa is in the early stages of training.

Macunaima: "I'm glad Bill has two editors to keep up the shop."

It's three young, female, non-gamer, full-time, editors to keep up the shop.

I would also add, as these new editors are reading, that I have no personal problem with you at all.

It does not add up that TMP as a low-traffic, niche site, needs three full-time editors, regardless of gender or location.

Which brings us back to motives.

Three, then.

By the way, what horrendous photo was this of Julia? That rather washed out, overbright one which looks like it was taken from a laptop cam and made her look a bit like a cartoon character?

Or was it some other photo I didn't see?

What was it about this photo that made people freak out, exactly?

"By the way, most self-proclaimed "experts in paedophilia" are not. They are people surfing on one of the most resounding and relentless moral panics of our time."

A moral panic is it? Or perhaps something society has swept under the rug at any cost?

I am also published in this area and am in contact with people who have photographic evidence against many people at the top of our society. But they won't share it because they would be dead if they did.

Moral panic my arse.

200th anniversary re-enactments of Leipzig 1813 occurred today; just thought I'd throw that one in as this is a wargamaing site.

"Keep calm and roll dice"

It does not add up that TMP as a low-traffic, niche site, needs three full-time editors, regardless of gender or location.

Which brings us back to motives.

Maybe TMP is bigger and more complicated than you think it is?

I don't know what more I can tell you. I hired Julia, and still the workload was too much. Now I've hired two more editors, and I hope that will be enough until 2014.

My motive? To stop working so many hours, and to bring TMP forward to TMP 4.0.

Or was it some other photo I didn't see?

It was a full-torso back shot, sans shirt or top, with something of a lacy whale tail protruding above jeans. Some saw a big deal, some saw nothing wrong, some saw something in the middle.

By the way, what horrendous photo was this of Julia? That rather washed out, overbright one which looks like it was taken from a laptop cam and made her look a bit like a cartoon character?

No, I think you're thinking of Alexa.

In the Lounge, Smokeyroan posted a picture of his ideal editor (a "plus" model). Julia, who is friends with Smokeyroan, in return posted a picture of herself, topless, seen from behind. She was only having a little fun, and I didn't see any harm in it.

She has since realized how offended some people were, has removed the photo, and has apologized.

I have read some of this since the editor asked us to.

I haven't seen or read anything on the new editors that has caused me any concern.

My motive? To stop working so many hours, and to bring TMP forward to TMP 4.0.

I can understand motive #1, and can only cheer for motive #2.

"am in contact with people who have photographic evidence against many people at the top of our society. But they won't share it because they would be dead if they did."

I have had contact with people who have had photographic evidence of aliens but can't share it because they would be dead if they did.

mrplant. Been here about 3 months and has 59 stifles, more than I have gathered in 10+ years of very irritating remarks.

BTW I got a nice TROLL in my kickstarter from Stonehaven…

Hysteria can have very wicked consequences. link

Bill and the TMP community have handled an unpleasant situation well.

"A moral panic is it? Or perhaps something society has swept under the rug at any cost?"

Well, Mr. Plant, you tell me. Because the people who believe that literally millions of sex slaves exist throughout the world certainly seem to have a hard time finding them.

Then again, when I and other social scientists who study this bring this point up, we're routinely told that these millions exist but they're just so damned hard to find because, you know, it's an illegal economy (which, of course, is why we can't find drug dealers and users, neh?) They say that the fact that we can't find these millions of sex slaves is proof in and of itself that they MUST exist.

At that point, you've jumped the shark in scientific terms.

When you have to argue that little to no proof is in fact proof that millions of something exist, you're clutching at straws.

Every year, Superbowl time rolls around in the U.S. and every year, well-meaning citizens piously intone that 20-40,000 women and children will be "trafficked" to satisfy the base lusts of American football fans.

And, every single year, zero to maybe a dozen of these so-called sex slaves are encountered, in spite of massive, multi-million dollar police operations.

What the people who repeat these numbers are saying is essentially this: Joe Blow sports fan, drunk off his ass, can find these thousands of sex slaves but the cops can't. Moreover, what they are saying is that it's not just one Joe Blow who's doing this, but thousands upon thousands.

One would think that the cops would just need to follow the lines of drunks to the slave brothels, neh?

But year after year, time and again, these anti-trafficking operations come up a cropper. Last year in New Orleans, they arrested 85 adult sex workers and found five who MAYBE were trafficked, for very Mann Act values of "trafficking".

60,000 prostitution arrests are made every year in the U.S. Maybe 300 trafficking victims are found. So where are the millions of sex slaves, exactly?

Remember: in order to make money off of this slavery, the slaves have to be working. So again, one would think one could simply follow the johns. But when police do this… Well, Shazam! They find very few sex slaves.

What they DO find, however, is tens of thousands of adult sex workers, whom they are more than happy to arrest and imprison. So much for "victimization" and the police's role in "rescuing" these men, women and children.

In fact, the FBI's recently concluded Operation Coast to Coast found 105 (IIRC) underaged prostitutes whom the Feds "rescued". As of August, most fo these kids were stuck in adult jails because there are no homes willing to take juvenile sex ofenders. And, if this year holds to the pattern of other years, we'll find out that 30-40% of these kids were on the lam from the juvenile justice system, in most cases precisely because they were abused within it.

So hooray for "rescue" that takes kids off the streets and sticks them right back in the juvie justice system where many of them will be raped and abused. 40% of underaged people selling sex identify themselves as LGBT, by the way, and 80% of LGBT in the juvie juistice system will be sexually abused before they reach adulthood.

So you might say I'm not a big believer in using police to "rescue" these kids, given what the post-rescue "solutions" for them amount to.

Regarding adult sex slaves, I apply Occam's Razor here: if something is supposed to be massively wide-spread and massively profitable, involving millions of people and the cops can't seem to hardly find it anywhere… Well, what's more likely? A moral panic – like the earlier "satanic/occult abuse" panic that someone brought up above – manipulated by politicians and law enforcement officials because it's popular and brings in resources? Or an actual, multi-trillion dollar industry operating right under our noses for which hardly any evidence at all can be found, ever, in spite of multi-million dollar police operations?

Occam's Razor suggests that the first hypothesis is more probable.

But do you know who abuses kids, in huge numbers? Families. Kids who are sexually abused by family members outnumber trafficked child prostitutes by a very wide margin. And we've got lots and lots of good data showing that, Mr. Plant.

Curiously, that fact is always forgotten when people bring up trafficking and child sexual exploitation.

And who abuses women the most, by far? Domestic partners, Mr. Plant. There are hundreds of thosuands of domestic abuse charges that languish in the U.S. Criminal Justice system every year for lack or resources to investigate while the cops are out there crusading against the all-powerful trafficking mafias whom they curiously almost never find.

And then there's the fact that a prostitute is about three times more likely to be abused by a cop than by a client.

So you tell me what "inconvenient facts" society wants to sweep under the rug at almost any cost.

Regarding your publications in this area, you show me your peer-reviewed pubs and I'll show you mine. I would love to see hard "photographic evidence [that] many people at the top of our society" are employing sex slaves. What's "many" in this context? A half a dozen, in a society of 300 million people? Or do you presume, like so many people, that every prostitute is a sex slave so everytime someone pays for sex (as long as it's a man doing it outside of marriage), that person is a sexual exploiter?

OMG, this guy needs to get a life. he sees a young Asian girl and he just naturally assumes shes being exploited in some way and he must go in and save the day. That kind of sexist, racist nonsense was supposed to have died out decades ago.

Unfortunately Jim, the new hysteria surrounding trafficking is bringing a lot of this stuff back into fashion.

A group of American sex worker friends of mine have even made a meme about this sort of behavior, which is making the rounds in sex work circles. Believe me: we uinfortuantely see examples of this sort of behavior every day.

link

Lord Raglan sounds like the kind of personality who latches on to this sort of thing because it gives him a sense of self-inflated importance and power. Back in China in the 1960s, he'd be a happy member of the Red Guard, fighting against deeply rooted capitalist perversions and corruption.

Unfortunately, he lives in the West in the 21st century, so there's still that nasty "due process" stuff to deal with. But have no fear! If the current moral panic is like the last few waves (satanic ritual abuse springs to mind), it'll leave a residue of laws and acts that deeply undercut due process. Sooner or later, we'll achieve utopia, where folks like Lord Raglan will have their accusations believed a priori.

And then all of our problems with sexual abuse and trafficking and stuff will melt away.

Been here a long time, really enjoy the site.

Have seen way too many self-important people on the site, try to impose their standards/beliefs on others. After all, they know best and we had better listen to them. Really don't listen to any of them, other than to watch the occasional train-wreck in process.

Bill does an excellent job of maintaining a site I enjoy coming to daily, despite the thousands of changes that have occurred in my life. My wife (of 8 years) even knows the page by name. I am sure that the new editors are going to be a great addition to the site. After all, Bill has hired them and I trust his judgement. And if one of them has a sense of humor? Even better. We are all human, we all express ourselves differently, and this site is about sharing views/jokes/factoids/misinformation and generally conversing with people of like attitudes/interests.

So welcome to our new editors, please ignore the rabble around the doorway. You'll find the vast majority of us to be rational, humorous, and fairly open-minded. After all, we play with toy soldiers. Who are we to judge anyone else?

And it was nice to have a face to attach to your names. I still picture Bill as a long-bearded hunch-backed Igor, spending 22 hours per day pecking away at a keyboard to keep the site up and running. Averaging the ages of all of you now, it should only be in the high 50's, right?

Enough said for now. I hope this blows over quickly, so we can get back to important things. Like how shocked we are over the GW price increase. Or how the angle of the arm on the Wargames Factory celt looks like his arm is dislocated. Or how I still have over 2,000 Mage Knight figures in my basement that I really need to rebase for Ares. And what IS the best ratio for Magic Wash? I found a new acrylic paint that works for terrain …

^ Like very much.

By the by, Macunaima, this is not directed at you. You express yourself well, and back yourself with reason. Site a source or two, and you have the argument won hands down in my book!

Still trying to figure out why folks who aren't paying members are so fixated on how the business operations are managed.

Might I make a positive suggestion. A quick search of Editor Julia's name into facebook brings her up her page. She has very loose security settings and the photos are open to public rather than set to friends only. A few of them are err.. 'playful?'.
Nothing wrong with someone showing their human side, but it might be worth her restricting viewership of them? Just a thought as her editorship of this site seems to have made her something of a public topic of conversation and scrutiny!

This isn't the effing NSA or Homeland! I dont see that anyones facebook page should come under scrutiny over this hobby page, the best one ever, but still a hobby page!

darthfozzywig very very good point. Seems the biggest open mouths must have very closed wallets…

Didnt take long for a good example to pop up…

Macunaima, some very good points. There is a growing and great scapegoating of people who maybe involved with naughty and nefarious things (to keep it polite). The people fueling this scapegoating have no re-guard for due process and are crazed with violence and hate.
The crimes they pursue may be heinous, but they mean nothing if a person is innocent except possibly dead because of mob hysteria.

The law sucks in America, its unfair, inaccurate and strangely different from state to state. However if we let go of it for any reason, however good seeming-what is the next thing to be attacked without due course? Big time slippery slope.

WOW Bill. Ignore them as if they don't exist. They will fall flat on their faces.

The law sucks in America, its unfair, inaccurate and strangely different from state to state.

Often, yes, as to all the first three. But the variation from state to state is a FEATURE rather than a problem. The states are the laboratories of democracy, enabling variations of laws to be usefully compared. AND Americans can vote with their feet: if your home state's legal system bothers you (and it very well might, for the reasons Rogzombie lists) you are free to move to another that does things differently.

This could be a separate discussion, doc. I see your points but the differences are so extreme in some cases that it makes one wonder if we really are one country. I am pretty happy with PAs laws. None of them effect me directly but there are states that I would not want to be in trouble in and I would never live there. PA has stupid laws too, though, but mostly nit picky stuff to generate revenue.

I dont hate the idea of state laws but I think there should be some cohesiveness to the law for the sake of the union.

Dont really want to argue it though. A lot of nastiness this weekend. I intend to watch Homeland and Walking Dead and chill :)

This could be a separate discussion, doc. I see your points but the differences are so extreme in some cases that it makes one wonder if we really are one country. I am pretty happy with PAs laws. None of them effect me directly but there are states that I would not want to be in trouble in and I would never live there. PA has stupid laws too, though, but mostly nit picky stuff to generate revenue.

I dont hate the idea of state laws but I think there should be some cohesiveness to the law for the sake of the union.

Dont really want to argue it though. A lot of nastiness this weekend. I intend to watch Homeland and Walking Dead and chill :)

Wow, thanks for the locking (never thought I'd say that!). If he saw my wife, I'd be accused of phedophilia too. She's 28, but last year we went to a place with some Italians, Frenchies and Dutch, and they all thought she was in high school!

mrplant. Been here about 3 months and has 59 stifles, more than I have gathered in 10+ years of very irritating remarks.

Just for the record Rogzombie, mrplant now has 60 stifles.

Wonder how THAT happened?

Charlie

Can someone send me a link or just explain to me what stiffles are? It appears I have 10. I can't find out what they mean.

Is it good or bad?

Is it possible to see who stiffled you?

TMP link

I didnt stifle him, I want to see what things he said to say for himself. I dont stifle anyone here. If they did something bad enough to rattle me they do everyone else too and get sent to the cornfield.

We have sort of gotten over this but the more I think about the malicious threat this inhumanoid sent to Bill the more angry I get. This is a very serious accusation. Maybe this guy should be investigated himself. It was like getting a cease and desist order from Games Workshop! J/K actually from the mafia or CIA in reality.

Here's a great source, produced by an unimpeachable group, The Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women, Cpt. Oblivious.

PDF link

It's called "whats the Cost of a Rumor?" and it charts and documents the pattern of gross exageration carried out by anti-trafficking groups regarding the supposed links between sex trafficking and mega-sporting events. It has about 500 referenced footnotes, mostly to scientific papers or sex worker organization studies.

It also shows what the cost of these engineered panics are in terms of wasted money and the creation of human rights abuses.

Tl;Dr version: many anti-trafficking organizations feed the myth that there are huge numbers of people being trafficked to mega-sporting events because it's good press and it brings in cash and funding. Also, many anti-trafficking groups are prohibitionist in focus and seek to use the anti-trafficking panic to further criminalize prostitution.

GAATW is one of the oldest and most respected anti-trafficking organizations in the world and they have some first class social scientists working for them.

And here's an excellent exposé by The Guardian which shows how the biggest anti sex trafficking operation nin British history failed to find a single trafficker:

link

This is a good case because the draft report for Operation Pentameter can be found on the net and you can check for yourself what the cops claimed were trafficking victims.

Tl;DR version: is it was a female foreign illegal immigrant selling sex, it was a "trafficking victim". Actual cases of sex slavery found in over 500 arrests? IIRC, about 5.