"Chaffee in British Service." Topic

With the impending release of FotR my attention has started to turn to my Brits.

Chaffees have always been one of my favourite tanks as regards looks for WW2 and I would like to get away in using at least one of these examples.

I know I can here echoes of "Numpty why didn't you pick a US force then as you can use these in numbers?" Agreed and I fully intend to build a late War US force eventually. But its like anything else it take lots of time to build and paint a new army and quite frankly I don't fancy a new army at the moment .

So back to the subject. Just by luck I selected the 7th AD for my choice of unit with my Brits as the Cromwell is another of my favourite tanks and the problems with the accuracy of the Shermans in 20mm has put me off a Sherman heavy force.

Can somebody kindly check my thoughts here .

1) 7th AD was the only division to receive these in NW Europe during WW2

2) My only reference is a book by Bill Belamy who got his Chaffee around April 1945

3) I have seen M24s listed on Returns of British tanks for either October or December 1944 .

I am looking for information when they were first used by 7th AD and the units they were allocated to. Where they used to replace the rather worn out Stuart Vs ?

So I would be most grateful if anyone can fill me in

Thanks

Hi Mysteron,

Going from memory, yes you're right – only 7th Armoured Division received Chaffee before the end of the war. They received four or five per regiment – one for the Recce Troop Commander (and also his 2ic in at least one instance) and one for each of his three Recce Section commanders. The other six or seven tanks in each Recce Troop remained Stuarts (mainly Mk V), though these were probably now all conveted to 'Jalopies' (1/3rd of the division's Stuarts had been Jalopies from the outset).

While Chaffees were certainly in depots and available for training duties in early 1945 and possibly late 1944, they weren't delivered to units until March/April 1945 or thereabouts and don't appear on unit strength returns until then. Their first actions were after crossing the Rhine. Similarly, units of 11th Armoured Division began training on Comets in December 1944, but didn't use them in action until the end of March 1945.

Units in 7th Armoured Division were 5 RIDG, 1 RTR, 5 RTR and 8 KRIH (the latter regiment being Armoured Recce and Bill Bellamy's regiment) – all received Chaffee at the same time.

A photo on page181 of Delaforces book alledgedly shows a 8 KRIH recce troop Chaffee next to a M5 which still has its turret and a star in a ring on the side of the hull dated april'45 however the TAC sign on the Chaffee looks rather dark for it to be 8 KRIH

Reading the History of 11th Armoured, the Chaffee might have been available in late 1944, like the Comet. But the units to receive the Comets had handed in their shermans, and were starting to train on the new tank when the Bulge attacks hit, and they were sent back to their Shermans until Febuary as they needed to be ready for immediate action.

The units waiting for Chaffees would probably have been in the same or similar boat at that time.

Is that the one where they're seen from the rear?

Yes, the squadron signs should be white for the KRIH.

Re turrets – I have seen a photo of a Recce Section with one Chaffee, one turreted Stuart and a Stuart Jalopy, so you can happily mix them up. :)

7th Armoured Division's turreted Stuarts seem to have disappeared by the Berlin Victory Parade. In this photo of KRIH on parade, you can see a Recce Section in the background on the right, consisting of 1x Chaffee and 2x Stuart V Jalopies:

Rapier,

Yes, 29th Armoured Brigade had only just started gunnery training on Comet at Gravelines when it was ordered to go back to Brussels and pick up its old Shermans. Unfortunately they'd already been picked over by other units looking for radios, MGs and other bits and pieces. Mice had also moved in and were busily chewing the electrical wiring!

Had the 'Bulge' not happened they may well have gone operational with Comet by January 1945 and all three armoured divisions might therefore have been equipped with Comet before the crossing of the Rhine.

No photo was taken from front left quarter crewman standing between them, tac sign is a lot darker then the star/ring

Chaffees have always been one of my favourite tanks as regards looks for WW2 and I would like to get away in using at least one of these examples.

Well I just saw an add for a fully restorted, fully-functional, real 1:1 scale Chaffee for sale for only 370,000USD :)

Really freaked me out for a second to log onto TMP and see my last name as a thread title. LOL!

I don't think I've ever met someone called Mr British-Service before.

"I don't think I've ever met someone called Mr British-Service before."

It's an old family French name.

I had a look at my notes from the Osprey Chaffee. They were first used by the US Army in December 1944 and the Iniskilling Dragoons and 8th Hussars recce squadrons got them in April 1945. 302 were supplied to Britain. The 5th Division recce regiment had them in 1946 for what its worth. I remember seeing a 1/72 diecast model of one (Dragon or Hobbymaster?) in British colours in model shop in Spain a few years ago.

Thanks guys again for your input.
@ Chris PzTp. Yes I would like to have a 1:1 scale Chaffee so I could flatten next door's car after he had keyed mine.

I suppose if the Chaffee had entered service any earlier than April 45 there would have been pictures of them. Picture of Chaffees in British service seem to be few and far between.

I think for a late war Brits force I can certainly get away with at least one in place of a Stuart.

I don't think for one minute that the Chaffee will be in the force lists for Brits in Battlegroup FotR but at least it will be in the US lists and I can just use the point values in place of the Stuarts.

Knowing me I will end up buying 2 :)

Why wouldn't they be in the lists? They certainly used them. By the way, another fun Lend-Lease item being adopted by the Armoured Divsions at the time was the M16 MGMC. :)

Mark – Sometimes if vehicles were only used in low numbers or just by certain units they tend to get omitted . I am quite sure the guys at Battlegroup don't do this intentionally but possibly for space constraints. A notable absentee from the Overlord book was the Panzer 2 Luchs .

Now you've just got me going now on the M16. It does happen that I have a couple of spare models . Did 7th AD use these?

I didn't think there would be much call for these bearing in mind a similar vehicle the M14 were converted into gun tows.

So yes please fill me in if you can :)

That's fair enough, but it seems easy enough to include a note in a list that says '7th Armoured Division 1945: May replace 1 in 3 Stuart with Chaffee'.

Yes, all of the Armoured Divisions and some of the Infantry Divisions in NW Europe received a battery or two of 6x M16 from roughly March 1945 onwards – positively identified in 7th Armoured, 11th Armoured, Guards Armoured, 15th (Scottish) and 51st (Highland) Divisions. They went to the divisional LAA Regts – usually re-equipping batteries of towed Bofors guns. There was a thread here which discussed them: TMP link

TMP link

Yes, it's strange that they decided to convert all the M14s into gun-tractors and OP vehicles, only then to adopt the M16 later. I think this was mainly down to the experiences of 1944-45 – there was a definite move away from towed AT & AA guns to self-propelled. When the M14 was rejected in 1943 it was considered that it lacked firepower compared to a 40mm Bofors or 20mm Hispano gun. However, the experience of 1944 showed that what was needed was guns that were mobile, up with the front-line troops and ready to fire at short notice – firepower was a somewhat secondary consideration.

Some 7th Armoured Division M16s:

Thanks Mark much appreciated. :)

No worries. Discovered that the above photo is of 'C' Troop, 51 LAA Battery, 15th (Isle of Man) LAA Regt RA, 7th Armoured Division.

Or… I might have put British Chaffees in the FotR British list solely because I have one I want to paint and a British Chaffee looks so cool…

Rated 'Unique' of course…

Though I did miss the M16s… Additional unit for the next issue of Dispatches methinks!

Thanks Mark and Piers.

That's one advantage if you are working on the rulebook you can make sure all your own vehicles are covered :).

Looking forward to using both of these for FotR and its nice to see its not just the Germans that get some luv :)

Hi Piers,

LOL I had no idea you were writing it. :)

Yes… I did the British list… Comets in too… Gotta give the British some late war love!

;)

Though I want the M16s now… Got to do a British one of them!

For what it's worth, 21AG AFV returns begin to include a column for Chaffee only from 24 March 1945, with nil on hand. 7th Armd Div reports the only one on the returns for 31 March 1945, joined by one for Gds Armd Div on 14 April 1945, which by 28 April 1945 shows 7 with 7th Armd, 8 with Gds Armd and 1 one 4th Cdn Armd Divs. 5 May 1945 has Gds up to 15 7 Armd Div down to 6. Unit Entitlement from April 1945 is 110.

Gary

Cheers Gary,

That fits with what Trockle says above about only the Skins and 8th Hussars getting them (assuming 3 or 4 per regiment). Bit of a surprise that Guards were the main user though.

Search on MIssing-Lynx under British Chaffee and there is quite a bit. This link states that the Grenadiers had them. I suspect that the Grenadiers,Coldstream and Irish had them but the Welsh didn't as they converted their recce troop to an ordinary squadron with Cromwells.

link

A bit to add to this discussion. I found this photo on eBay of a British Chaffee with the recce regiment of the 53rd Welsh Division from the markings. It is post war but before early 1947. The 53rd was disbanded then and the infantry recce regiments did not have tanks in NWE. It is possibly from the divisional RAC regiment added after the war.

auction

I haven't looked at post-war British War Establishments in serious detail but must admit I've been considering taking a run at the 1947-1949 issues, as these are very similar to the wartime organisations. Until recently I thought the Divisional Regiment, RAC, was a reconnaissance unit, however it appears to have been primarily an anti-tank unit, equipped with either tanks or SP guns. It went through at least five reorganisations between 1947 and 1954 and I've no idea if it included light tanks at some point but it might well be a candidate for the Chaffee if it did.

Gary

Gary,

If you do, I'd be very interested in what you find. The defining document seems to be PRO WO32/11520 Future of the Reconnaissance Corps. A quote from "Only the Enemy in Front" by Richard Doherty is:

"The experience of the corps is reflected in the constitution of the new divisional RAC regiments which , with their tanks, were not to "be confined to reconnaissance, but will include such other tasks are as compatible with its organization and equipment.""

Thought that I would tag this on here re the above posts regarding the post-war Divisional Regiment, RAC. I've found a couple of outline organisations for the Regiment, which are markedly different from one another.

An Army Training Instruction (ATI) was issued in Feb 1947, which included a wire diagram of the unit, plus some notes on its composition and equipment.

RHQ – 3 light tanks, 2 APCs and one light ACV

HQ Sqn;
Recce Tp – 6 light tanks, 6 scout cars
Intercom Tp – 9 scout cars
Bridge-layer Tp – 3 bridgelayers
Admin Tp

3 Sqns, each;
Sqn HQ – 2 light tanks, 2 CS tanks, 2 APCs, 1 scout car, 1 dozer tank and 1 Armd Rec Veh
2 Tank Tps, each 4 light tanks
3 APC Tps, each 4 APCs
Admin Tp

Provisional AFV total;
39 light tanks
6 CS tanks
3 dozer tanks
3 bridge-layers
3 ARVs
44 APCs
18 scout cars

The text states that the light tanks "will be armed with 77-mm guns capable of medium anti-tank fire and adequate HE". Having a look round the internet I assume these were planned to be A46 light tanks, which family was also to include a fully enclosed APC. The CS tanks were 'probably' to be 25-pr SP guns on the same chassis as the tank.

The APC Tps were based on four APCs, with one officer and 34 ORs, of which 30 ORs dismounted. No info on the internal org but support weapons of four Brens, two PIATs and one 2-in mortar.

There was a WE published in early 1947 for the Divisional Regt, RAC, which is not one I have (at the moment at least).

As I understand it, the A46 did not enter production, let alone service, so the M24 Chaffee pictured in the earlier link might well have been a stand-in for the Regt involved as it waited for the new light tanks it would never see…

There is a later WE for a Divisional Regiment, RAC, included in a 1952 pamphlet, unfortunately my copy doesn't show the WE ref. This only shows wireless equipped vehicles but gives the following outline.

RHQ – 4 tanks, 4 scout cars
Admin Tp – 5 scout cars for "A" Echelon
3 Sqns, each;
Sqn HQ – 4 tanks, 1 dozer tank, 1 ARV, 1 scout car
4 Tps, each 4 tanks and 1 scout car

The early 1952 pamphlet on the Armoured Division identifies the Divisional Regt, RAC, as being the framework for anti-tank defence in the formation (the Inf Bns still have atk guns, the Motor Bn does not).

The 1950ish WE removes the dismounted element and seems to mark the changeover of the unit to the anti-tank role; I understand the Anti-tank Regts of the RA were disbanded around 1950 with the duty passing to the RAC.

There were at least four WEs for the Regt issued between 1948 and 1954. A later description for the unit specifies 36 'heavy gun tanks' in four Tps of three per Sqn, with three Sqns (and no RHQ tanks).

Gary

As I understand it, the A46 did not enter production, let alone service, so the M24 Chaffee pictured in the earlier link might well have been a stand-in for the Regt involved as it waited for the new light tanks it would never see…

Which makes me wonder what would have been the substitute for the APCs appearing in the TOE. The most obvious substitute would be M5/M9 halftracks, if these would have been around in sufficient numbers.

I would guess the Ram Kangaroo. According to this link, the British army used them until 1955.

link

Here's a little more about Ram Kangaroos in post-war British service.

link

Another option for the APC could have been the CT15A.

That should be a C15TA.

Did the Canadians transfer their C15TA trucks to the British service after the war?

I'm afraid I don't know if some were taken from left over Canadian stocks (probably)but they were specifically designed and ordered rather than acquired accidentally. Something I've read recently stated that the British army in Germany had a vast surplus of vehicles which no one wanted. In one case, they were pushed into a quarry and recovered by local farmers.

According to the review linked below, the first production batch was for the British and some were issued during WW2. The last scanned page in the review states that they were used quite widely across the world postwar. I have seen a restored C15TA locally which had been bought from the British Army and used for forestry work.

The Canadians seem to have left all of theirs in Europe where they were picked up by the Dutch and Danes.

link

If anyone has a copy of this book, I'd be interested to hear what it says about British and Canadian use during WW2.

The post-war ATI No.12 on 'the Employment of Armoured Personnel Carriers', issued April 1948, noted that "The vehicle of the last war was a tank or self-propelled gun (Priest) converted at short notice by the removal of its superstructure. This will, in due course, be replaced by a special vehicle embodying the improvements found necessary"…"The armour will be the same as the current universal tank, with sufficient overhead protection to withstand splinters from near HE".

APC crew was still down as a driver-op and driver-mech, both RAC, with three APCs required to lift a Rifle Pl (meaning Pl HQ was split over the three vehicles).

Gary

APC crew was still down as a driver-op and driver-mech, both RAC, with three APCs required to lift a Rifle Pl (meaning Pl HQ was split over the three vehicles).

What was the full platoon strength in that TOE? Wondering how crammed it was expected to be inside the vehicles.

As for C15TA, that seems to be given a transport capacity of 2+8.

I did ask years ago about how many infantrymen could realistically be carried in a Ram Kangaroo APC but I don't think there was a 'textbook' answer.

The seeming deficit between WE strength of a Rifle Pl (37 all ranks) and seating over three Rams (circa 30 all ranks?) can be written off as 'never having a full Pl anyway' but I'd doubt any transport officer who made his calculations on that basis.

Infantry Notes (21 Army Group) said that three APCs could carry Pl HQ and three Secs, with two more required for Coy HQ, which allowed for one spare with a Tp of 12 APCs per Rifle Coy – Bn HQ then had three APCs with two spare (based on a Sqn of 53 APCs).

I think the post-war APC Regiment had the same number and allocation of vehicles, though I understand the Rifle Pl was by then 40 all ranks.

There is a thread on WW2Talk about the C15TA, in which I put some links to the relevant sections on Heritage Canadiana.

link

Gary

Perhaps it was assumed that there would be one or two men per section LOB?

Yes, it could well be, and given the original APC Regts were a field expedient it would make sense they were geared to local conditions. There was a draft loading table prepared by 9th Armd Bde for its Sherman armoured carriers in Italy, which was based on no more than eight men per carrier (excluding crew), with four carriers to lift a Rifle Pl; HQ of seven and three Secs, each of NCO and six men. That did incorporate an LoB, with seven men being described in early war literature as the typical fighting (not WE) strength.

That required four carriers per Rifle Pl, and two for Coy HQ, giving 14 Shermans per carrier Tp. 21 AG was based on 12 Rams per Tp, with a Pl crammed into three it appears. Offhand, I don't know there was anymore room in a de-turreted Sherman than there was a Ram?

Playimg around on YouTube the other week I found some footage of a postwar RAC demonstration, at Bovington I think, which included late war and new post-war kit. There was I think a Churchill, turret off, from which you briefly see a Rifle Sec dismounting, so seems they a least tried that chassis as well.

Gary

Here's more about the Churchill APC. It looks like the Saracen was the intended vehicle but was delayed so anything else available was pressed into service. It also seems that the limitations of the converted vehicle were eventually accepted.

link

Interesting read about the Churchill as a post-war APC, than you for finding it. I also managed to recall where I'd seen the footage, and it is very brief, of one example in a 'big show' demonstration.

YouTube link

The vehicle comes into shot at about 7.40, and what I count as seven men (could be eight?) dismount from it. Then a shot of the vehicle driving on the second reel, seen at just before 2.00.

YouTube link

Gary

Churchill APC would not be exactly speedy choice, though it would certainly provide good cover, though the lack of overhead protection from de-turreting would be still a problem.

As for the carrying capacity of Ram Kangaroo versus Sherman Kangaroo, my impression is that the internal dimension of the Ram tank were pretty close to those of a Sherman, though I have not seen any hard numbers.

We are getting a bit far from Chaffees, though, which makes me think if there were any trials with de-turreted Chaffees as transport or recon vehicles.

I'd dread to think what the US would say if they found out their shiny new kit was being treated so horribly! I can though picture a group of REME types, gathered around one discussing just such a modification and where to put the .50-cal afterwards…

Apparently sometime post-WWII there was an excess of M24 Chaffee turrets going around, as some of the early French AMX-13 tanks mounted Chaffee turrets instead of the regular AMX-13 turret.

Later on apparently the Turkish military had some attempts at converting M24 Chaffee (or some closely related vehicle) into APC:

link

So it is not just the REME types who are into vehicle conversions.