"British 17pdr towing vehicles" Topic

Of the various options available – Morris trucks, Crusader tows, halftracks etc – can I ask, please, if anyone has any hard info on which vehicles were used by the towed batteries of 21st AT regt RA in Guards Armoured Division?

Any info gratefully received.

M5 half tracks – the general rule of thumb is that armoured divisions used half tracks, infantry divisions softskins, and corps AT regiments Crusader tows. Britain being Britain there were of course exceptions, but the Guards weren't one of them.

Dom would they be M5s as opposed to M9s ?

I'd need to go digging to double check, but from memory yes M5s.

Dom, many thanks. Just what I needed.

I'm going to disagree slightly – M14 halftracks were the usual halftrack used for towing 17pdrs. The last time I looked this up, 21 AT Regt used M14s. These were AA vehicles that had been acquired via lend-lease, but were rejected for service and were then converted into gun-tractors and OP/command vehicles.

These vehicles can be identified by the lack of rear-doors and the drop-down sides like those on the M15 & M16.

One point of interest – 21 AT Regt ditched its towed 17pdrs late in 1944 and instead used the crews as infantry, mounted in their M14s, to support the two M10c batteries. As such, they were then used as the division's fifth infantry/armour battlegroup.

The Osprey book on Guards Armoured has half-tracks in the nice "order of march" diagram at the back.

@ Mark, thank you. As ever, for every question, there's a simple answer and a complicated one. Now I either have to use standard half-tracks and pretend I can't see/don't know the difference, or look for a couple of 1/76 AA half-tracks I can decapitate!

@ Forrester – loan of same on usual terms, please?

It appears you can make an M14 from the Airfix M3A1 kit . One guy on the Aifix forum has already had a go and doesn't look too difficult .

I may just take the easy option and go for the M5 myself .

I think I've just gone right round the block and come back to where I started – and the basic Airfix halftrack is EXACTLY what I need:

(EDITED QUOTE from online review)

"The Airfix model shown here is advertised as an M3A1 Half-Track, but the flat section mudguards, the hinged top section of the hull sides, and the vehicle dimensions point to a M14 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage supplied to Britain under Lend-Lease and re-converted to the M5A1 Half-Track configuration. The stowage racks on either side of the vehicle have been left off to simulate an M14 conversion which had not received the racks.

Evaluation

* Excellent choice of subject, converted M14 Multiple Gun Motor Carriages were used as M5 and M5A1 Half-Track personnel carrier in the motorized infantry battalions attached to British armoured formations.

The Airfix model is incorrectly advertised as a White M3A1 Half-Track serving with the US Army in Normandy, when in fact it is a British M5A1 Half-Track conversion of the IHC M14 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage manufactured by International Harvester Co. of Chicago, Illinois…

….The Airfix model of the M5A1 Half-Track is an excellent choice for wargamers who look for cheap and serviceable armoured personnel carriers to equip their British Motor Battalions."

Well as lucky breaks go…. ;-)

I think that is fantastic how its come round full circle .

Never seen that before .

Go for it.

As for the racks that you will have spare you could use them on the Italeri quick build M3s as these do appear to be 1/76 scale and not 1/72 as advertised . These will easily convert into M5s for your troops , if you want some variety .

@ Mark

The 21st AT regt IIRC was part of Guards Armoured Division. Was the use of M14s unique to this regiment or was it standard throughout the other Armoured Divisions. My area of interest is the 7th Armoured Division .

Cheers

As for the racks that you will have spare you could use them on the Italeri quick build M3s as these do appear to be 1/76 scale and not 1/72 as advertised.

Even though the scale difference between those models is not great, the Airfix mine racks are in fact not long enough to be compatible with the Italeri US halftracks.

Not tried this myselt but if that is the case then the ends could be used and perhaps some lengths of micro strip could be utilised inbetween the ends to form new racks.

Its something I am considering as I have 2 packs of the Italeri Halftracks going spare as they were for a US project that never got off the ground.

Thanks for your input

The only reason I know is that I have converted most of my Italeri HTs to M3A1s and thought I was going to get away with using the Airfix racks, of which I had loads spare.

I did consider extending the Airfix racks but the problem is they still need to align just off centre with the panel lines so you would need to extend them twice, if you see what I mean.

I also thought about completely scratching them but in the end I settled for using some thinned down Hasegawa racks (which are the right length) and leaving a few vehicles without racks.

Mysteron,

Yes, 65 AT Regt also used M14 halftracks, though whether they were all M14s is anyone's guess. All halftrack 17pdr tractors I've identified have been M14s. There is a Canadian War Archive document somewhere on line that discusses the issue of 17pdr tractors at length.

Thanks Mark from myself and Footslogger .

Your goodself and the other guys on here have been very helpful on a subject which is difficult to find accurate info .

Cheers guys

Yes, thanks all round, TMP at its best.

With a the 'defrocked' M14's, 15's & 16's the British must have acquired quite a number of surplus 0.50 M2s. What did they do with them?

I don't know if Britain ever received M15s, but M16 MGMCs were used by the British Army; being added to the LAA Regts of Armoured Divisions (and perhaps the odd Infantry Division?) in 1945, being allocated at a ratio of one troop of M16 per LAA Battery (replacing towed Bofors).

Mark, You've probably seen them but there is a distant picture of an AA halftrack used by 11th Armoured Division in "No Triumphant Procession" by John Russell. It's marked as an M14 but I wonder if it is an M16. I haven't been able to find the original on the IWM website. There are also another two on the 7th Armoured Division and the Derbyshire Yeomanry websites. The last one seems to belong to the 51st Highland Division. It is marked as belonging to an infantry LAA battalion (no. 47).

Mark, You're right re the M15s!

Cheers Trockledockle,

The only photo I've seen of a confirmed British M16 was one from Guards Armoured Division, so those photos would be interesting to see.

What was I right about Et? That the British Army didn't use them?

Mark, Have a look at this link- the Highland Division one is pretty conclusive as you can see the AoS number on the vehicle on the left. The 7th Armoured Division could be visiting vehicles but those look like Morris C9 Bofors SP AA gun bonnets in the background. I can't find it on the www but have downloaded a copy. The photograph in "No Triumphant Procession" is a bit distant but you can see the 4 barrels of the M16. It is listed as coming from the IWM collection but I haven't been able to find it. If someone can tell me how to attach a photo, I will scan it. Perhaps we should move all the M16 stuff to a new link.

link page 30/31

Found it ! It's in the middle of the 15th LAA Regt section.
link

And let us not forget the image of a tiny chihuahua dog with fake antlers pulling a 17pdr. through the deep snow in the Dr. Seuss classic "The Grinch who set up a Christmas Kill-zone." A classic for all ages and most ranges!
Rod Robertson being anything but helpful.

Cheers Trockledockle,

You can't upload photos directly to TMP. You need to find the direct URL for the photo on the web (ending in .jpg), then simply cut'n'paste the link. For example, if you click on the photo you linked above, you find the direct link to the photo. Then simply cut'n'paste the URL here and the photo will automatically appear like so:

Cheers Rod,

Is that in the same series as Beatrix Potter's 'Peter Rabbit: Panzerknacker'?