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"Early Austrian Hussars and Uhlans?" Topic


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DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian30 Aug 2013 11:57 a.m. PST

I have sample uniforms for early (pre-1799) Austrian Hussars and Uhlans for a Rivoli OOB that I am doing. However, I have a few questions on some details.

The Uhlan figures from Eureka have fur on their hats. I cannot find an example of those online.

I also need information on how the musicians, standards and officer uniforms would differ from the rank and file.

Any help appreciated.

MichelleJ30 Aug 2013 8:16 p.m. PST

There is a b& w print in the Osprey cavalry book of the Uhlan in fur trim. I wondered if it is bear fur?

SJDonovan31 Aug 2013 12:07 a.m. PST

This is from the Austro-Hungarian Army 1798-1814 by W. J. Rawkins (but I should warn you that it was published a long time ago and more up-to-date research may have superseded it).

With regard to the headgear he says: "In 1792 the Uhlan Regiment was wearing a version of the traditional Polish cap, the 'Federaka', with soft yellow crown with squared top, brown fur headband and short black-over-yellow plume on the left side. In 1798, with the raising of the 2nd Regiment, both were put into modernised uniforms and the first version of the Czapska hat, the traditional lancer cap, was introduced with short squared top 'box' fluted at the sides, black turban and black leather peak. The semi-spherical yellow-and-black pompon was worn on the left side of the upper edge of the 'box' surmounted by a black-over-yellow plume and mixed yellow-and-
black cords and flounders were worn. The upper portion of the czapska was yellow for the 1st Regiment and grass green for the 2nd Regiment; however, prior to 1800 both units would appear to have worn yellow caps."

Officers and NCOs: "Officers' czapskas were of the same pattern as those of the men but had gilded brass corners to the box and trim to the peak, and cords were mixed black-and-gold.

The coat was of the same pattern as those of the men with all buttons gilt and gold-fringed epaulettes were worn at the shoulders with heavy bullion fringes for the field officers and fine fringes for the junior grades. Field officers' cuffs were trimmed with gold lace and the kummerbund sash was gold-and-black silk.

Officers wore a pouch-belt of black leather with wide gold lace trim to the edges and gilt pickers and chains on the breast; the small pouch had a shaped lid and was trimmed with gold lace. Overall trousers were green as for the coat with a double scarlet stripe on the outer seam; double gold stripe with a line of scarlet piping between for the senior officers. Waist-belts were of whitened leather and the sabre had a silvered hilt. Sabre-straps were as for the officers of infantry."

Musicians: "The Uhlan trumpeters wore the czapska as for the men with scarlet-over-yellow or all-scarlet plume. Prior to 1806 trumpeters would seem to have worn coats as for the other ranks. Trousers were as for the men. Trumpets were brass with mixed black-and-yellow cords. Pouch-belts were not worn, but other equipment was as for the troopers."

Mal Sabreur31 Aug 2013 6:34 a.m. PST

this is from Digby Smith's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars." Which is quite a handy quick reference work

picture

I,m sure I read somewhere that the Austrians used a lot of fur fabric of some sort in their uniforms

DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian31 Aug 2013 2:52 p.m. PST

Very helpful.

Any ideas on the Hussar Officers and Musicians?

Prince of Essling31 Aug 2013 3:33 p.m. PST

Hussar circa 1792

picture

Uhlan officer circa 1796

picture

Uhlan circa 1796

picture

picture

Uhlan circa 1787

picture

picture

picture

picture

Hussars circa 1796

picture

picture

picture

picture

Hussars circa 1787

picture

picture

Bolivar31 Aug 2013 4:11 p.m. PST

Essling these are great pictures from what looks like a near contemporary source. Can you tell me where they are from ?

Prince of Essling31 Aug 2013 4:28 p.m. PST

1796 plates from "Geschichte und Bildliche Vorstellung der Regimenter des Erzhauses Oesterreich" by Reilly
link

1787 plates from "Schema aller Uniform der Kaiserl. Königl. Kriegsvölkern" by Max von Grimm
link

Beeker18 Jun 2021 9:40 a.m. PST

Just finished reading AUSTRIAN CAVALRY OF THE REVOLUTIONARY AND NAPOLEONIC WARS, 1792-1815 by Acerbi and Molnar (Helion). I did not realize that the Revolutionary period Chevauleger reg'ms each had 2 squads of Uhlan attached. I see these now in the Schema links provided by PoE. What is not clear is: are these two squads in addition to the 6 squadrons of Chevauleger or are they part of the 6 squadrons… so that a Chevauleger reg is made up of 4 squadrons of chevauleger and 2 Uhlan????

Also, Acerbi and Molnar write that the Uhlan were armed with lances but several articles on Uhlan organization before being formally regimented in 1798 indicate they were organized in the Polish manner. Half Sabre and half lance (Tavariche). The O'Reilly document (1796) clearly shows Chevauleger Uhlan armed only with sabre.

So, if I'm making an Austrian Chevauleger regiment in lead.. what would it look like????

Many thanks in advance for comments.

best,
Beeker

Prince of Essling18 Jun 2021 2:23 p.m. PST

From Michael Hochedlinger (?former/current Senior Archivist at the Austrian State Archives) "Austria's Wars of Emergence 1683-1797" page 301 say:
The former Polish province of Galicia , Austria's spoils from the Polish partition of 1772, contributed a characteristic element to the Austrian cavalry: Polish uhlans, easily recognisable by their characteristic caps (czapka) and lances. These uhlans were initially attached to Chevauxlegers regiments, the first proper regiment of uhlans being created only in 1791.

Based on the above, I would think that the 2 squads were additional to the Chevauxlegers 6 squadrons – until the uhlan regiment was formed.

von Winterfeldt18 Jun 2021 10:43 p.m. PST

@Beeker, for what time period?

Beeker19 Jun 2021 11:38 a.m. PST

Thanks PoE – duly noted!

@vW – i imagine the range would be 1792 up-to the 1796 O'Reilly schema.

To clarify my understanding from Acerbi-Molnar, Osprey and online references: there would have been 12 squadrons (6 divisions) among the Chevauleger, half wearing white and the other wearing mid / light green to match their parent Chaveauleger uniforms.

I believe that the only regiment not to have Uhlans attached – but i stand to be corrected – was Latour, which became a later addition to the Chevauleger.

The first dedicated Uhlan would have been O'Donnel's volunteers – wearing dark green. Followed later in the mid-1790s with a second Galician Freikorp. Again in dark green.

I noted the reference to Mezaros in the O'Reilly Schema in all of the Uhlan images. I wonder if the attached Uhlan to the Chevauleger had a separate, centralized Administrative organization that facilitated first their secondment to the Chevauleger and then their eventual integration into the two and then three dedicated Uhlan regiments post 1798?

Thanks again in advance for thoughts / comments.

best,
Bryan

Musketballs19 Jun 2021 1:04 p.m. PST

There's a striking plate in the history of the O'Reilly Chevaux-legers showing a dragoon and Uhlan together:

link

Musketballs19 Jun 2021 3:28 p.m. PST

And some further details from the CL2 history:

link

Uhlan-Divisions were originally attached to three Chevaux-Leger regiments in 1785.

- Lobkowitz (future CL3)
- Levenehr (future DR4)
- Modena (disb. 1802)

The prescribed uniform was a white Polish-cut jacket with lapels and facings in the regimental colour, light blue Hungarian breeches and Czapka with a yellow top.

In 1786 the other three Chevaux-leger regiments received Uhlans:

- Kaiser (future CL1) got a squadron from Levenehr
- Richecourt (future CL2) got a squadron from Modena
- Kinsky (future CL5) got a squadron from Lobkowitz

Each regiment then expanded its Uhlan squadron to a full division, which became the 2nd Major's Division of each regiment. The Uhlan-Divisions were additional to the usual strength.

After this expansion the Uhlan-Divisions of Kaiser and Richecourt (the green-jacketed CL1/CL2) were ordered to wear white breeches instead of the blue Hungarian breeches worn by the remaining Uhlans. I've yet to find a reference to them wearing green jackets before the first Uhlan regiment was formed in 1791.

At the same time, officers in all Divisions were ordered to have white on their Czapka – other ranks continued with yellow (this continued until 1798, when a second regular Uhlan regiment was formed, and officers were ordered into the regimental colour).

For the Turkish War, the Uhlans were completely re-equipped with carbines in place of the lance – the best six shots in each squadron had a rifled carbine and received a marksman's pay.

Prince of Essling19 Jun 2021 3:46 p.m. PST

@Musketballs – good find.

von Winterfeldt19 Jun 2021 11:12 p.m. PST

@Musketballs

Very good information supplied and thanks for the links, alas Hathi Trust – not always to be downloaded for non US IP address.

Officers shapska went back to yellow in 1791, trousers green – steelgreen but the footnote in your second links rightly states that the green was of a more brighter colour than the name implies.

The two Karabiniers regiments should still have had attached a Chevauleger Division in 1792, bringing the regiment up to 4 Divisions altogether.

Is there any information in this new book about this?

von Winterfeldt20 Jun 2021 2:41 a.m. PST

here the links from the Artaria series of 1787

link


and in contrast those fitting for our period of 1792


link

Beeker20 Jun 2021 8:05 a.m. PST

Awesome! TY Musketballs!!! Gaps are starting to fill in!

Interesting, in Military History Publishers (Fisher or Delameter.. can't recall) hard-bound re-print of Phipps' Account of Napoleon in Italy (1796) there is an insert at the back of prints made in Holland during the 1794-1797 period. One of Austrians and one of French. The Description of the Austrian plates is provided by David Hollins and includes an image of an Uhlan in an all light-blue / grey uniform – jacket and breeches. Hollins attributes this uniform to the original 1784, re-establishment of Uhlans in the K. K. Arnmee. He assumes that the this uniform is still in use 10 years later given supply issues. Interesting!

@vW the Acerbi – Molinar volume does reference the addition of a Chevauleger division for each regiment during this time period. I will have to go back and re-read, it is possible that these light-troops were detached and brigaded together and entered action independent of the Karabinears during the conflict in the low-lands.

The attachment of Chevauleger does pose an interesting question about the kasket. No mention is provided by Haythornthwaite in Osprey other than to say that regular Chevauleger had yellow tape on the edges of the kasket front. Acerbi and Molinar indicate that regular chevauleger used white tape. No mention is made about the Karabinear regiments, in their book, other than to say the attached Cheveauleger also wore the kasket. I wonder if they would have used metal thread (Gold or Silver) for the kasket edges instead of tape?

Thanks everyone! This has been an excellent exchange!

best,
Beeker

Beeker22 Jun 2021 5:53 a.m. PST

@vW – correction / clarification on my statement about the KaraBinier.

Acerbi – Molinar state that the Chevauleger divisions attached to the Karabinier both operated in the low-lands from 92-94. Chevauleger division from No. 1 Karabinier operated independently while the Chevauleger division from No. 2 operated with the regiment. In 1795 the Chevauleger division from No. 1 would re-join the parent regiment on the upper-Rhine. No 2. would also move to the upper-Rhine.

Both divisions saw extensive action during the entire period.

best,
Beeker

Prince of Essling22 Jun 2021 2:59 p.m. PST

Interesting drawing by Fritz Allemand of Uhlans 1784, 1785 & 1786 at Brown Digital Repository link

von Winterfeldt22 Jun 2021 10:41 p.m. PST

He did quite a lot of drawings – but clearly a secondary source and from where did he draw his information? Artaria?

SHaT198423 Jun 2021 3:29 p.m. PST

I had recently added this thread to the 'Redux' version index:-
TMP link

~d

Beeker24 Jun 2021 6:00 a.m. PST

Whoops! Hi SHaT1984. Afraid none of the links from the index post work.

????

best,
Beeker

SHaT198401 Jul 2021 2:03 a.m. PST

Whoops! Hi SHaT1984. Afraid none of the links from the index post work.
????

Well Beekwe I dont know what problem you are encountering for "none… work" but they are all hand culled and posted after checking by me.

I maintain a master document on my laptop and update from there (simple copy/ paste of course coz there'e no trickery allowed on tmp).

They work for me, and you are the first in 2,325 viewers of the thread snce October to say anything about them.

All but one I think are simple on-site tmp urls, just like any other link.

Something else perhaps…?
dave

Prince of Essling01 Jul 2021 5:29 a.m. PST

Hi Dave,

Certainly links to the illustrations I posted are now not working. May be the Russian site has been taken down or closed for maintenance?

Ian

SHaT198401 Jul 2021 12:04 p.m. PST

Ian,
Certainly links to external sites fail regularly and after time, disappear; also the proprietor seems to remove cached documents frequently- see my own 10eLegere thread.

But I believe Beeker was referencing my 'Redux' indexing work thread and those are 99.6% on site, and work TBOMK.

The loss of your pics is illustrative of the value of including plain text url info as well as pics- E.g. what Flickr does.

Happy Friday ~ 6Deg and fine!
cheers d

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