"Coats of Arms at Bannockburn ?" Topic

I thought it would be simple but like most things historical it isn´t.
The Arms worn at bannockburn, can anyone give a reliable (definative) source for the Arms worn by both sides.
I ask because Chris suggested that Edward de Bruce would not wear a blue Lion but the arms of the earl of carrick
TMP link
It would be easy to Change what I´ve already done but it gets more complicated when it Comes to Robert de Bruce.
I´ve so far seen three Versions of his Arms, this one

the classic one with Lion rampant yellow background etc and the Version on the TMP link
Even Bohun seems to get given different coats of arms from one source to another.

Paul,

great question

Robert De Brus V had the Brus coat of arms as above

Robert de Brus VI had the Brus coat of arms as above from 1295.

Robert de Brus I (king 1306 -29) may of worn the Carrick coat of arms from 1296 till 1306 when he made a successful claim to the crown.

Edward de Brus possibly had the title of Earl of carrick from 1309 (some suggest 1313)

I will have a look around some armoural rolls and see what I come up with

The blue lion is a Bruce crest and does appear on some Bruce arms well after the period – usually as an escutcheon or in a canton but I've never seen it before about 1600.

Edward was not 'the' Bruce (i.e. not clan head) so should have borne a differenced set of Bruce arms (no idea what they would have been) but he may well have bone the red chevron on white of Carrick if he was leading the feudal host from his earldom.

link

Have a look at this for English arms for the period, taken from the Poem of Caerlaverock, which is the siege in 1300AD.

Also don't forget the Lion Rampant is the Royal Banner of Scotland.

At Bannockburn I should think Edward Bruce would fly Carrick and possibly his personal arms.

I have used the Caerlaverock Roll also. I have a few other sources as well, let me dig them out and I will share them with you.

Allen

Paul, I found the pamphlet that I was thinking of. It is called "The Battle of Bannockburn, Heraldry, Armour and Knights". Written by Peter Armstrong. If I remember correctly I bought it from On Military Matters a few years ago. It shows or describes the heraldry of some 70 English knights (with some details of who was in which retinue) and 15 or so Scottish knights. Hope this helps.

Allen

Thanks everyone :-D
I think a quick repaint is called for. It just doesn´t seem correct that he would have had the Lion rampant at bannockburn.
@ Allen, this one?
link

Yep, that's it. It is worth the money in my opinion. Good luck with the project!

Allen

Robert I would most certainly have borne the Lion Rampant from 1306 onward. he would have been undermining himself had he not done so. I can't remember offhand when Edward Bruce became Earl of Carrick and my copy of RMS is out on loan. I would imagine it'll be on dodgypedia, but I rather think it took place around 1309. He would certainly have borne the device of the Earl of Carrick at Bannockburn; it would have been one a of a relatively small number of devices that would have been widely known.
Gildas – the term clan is really pretty meaningless in the 14th century.
Paul…I love your painting work and I wish I had your skill, but a little more research might not be a bad idea. If you PM me.. thathistorybloke@btinternet.com I'll happily send you some useful references and some info on stuff to avoid.
A 'Royal guard' infantry unit really would n't be part of the scheme of things in 1314 and men were not carrying big shields nor did they carry their lords device on their shields as far as we know. It was normal practice for the cavalry of a major English army to be in four divisions, one of which – always the largest – was nominally under the king's command, but the men bore their own devices.
Incidentally, it's pretty doubtful that spearmen carried shields at all due the challenge of handling a 12 foot spear.

I agree, I don't think that the spearmen would be using shields while using the long spears. I do think that they might have them slung over the shoulder on their back or a small targe hanging from the waist maybe?

Allen

@ Chris. The "royal guard " unit is more a bit of fun than anything …they look quite impressive as a block (same colour scheme etc) and the rest of the English inf will be a lot diffrernt..I´ve another 9 blocks to do yet.
Edwards had his arms changed to that of Earl of Carrick, Looks way better.
The shields and carrying spears was only cos the figs originally had big ugly rectangular shields which I cut away leaving and they needed replacing..
link
I could have left them all with swords but kneeling spearmen in the strelets range are few and far between. I´ve read he (Robert de Bruce)supplied his shiltron guys with metal gloves so shields weren´t necessary.
The historical Research is the Thing that´s getting to be a pain, there a quite a few contradictory sources as to which arms each Person was wearing and the artistic representation is even worse..I´ve seen three Versions of what arms Henry de Bohun would have carried…

Somehow I managed to repeat the post above :-/

Paul, have you checked out this site?

link

It's in French; if you click on 'Armoriaux' you get a drop-down list of armorials, each containing loads of identified full-colour shields.

Paul, PM me and I'll give you whatever info you need about armies = as for gloves, the troops were expected to provide them themselves – like the rest of their kit. Off hand I can't recall ever reading anything in contemporary material about spearmen kneeling apart from kneeling briefly for prayer and a blessing at Bannockburn. Heraldry…your're on your own there mostly I'm afraid, but you really can't go wrong with the Caerlaverock roll, which includes a fair sprinkling of Scottish people.

Paul, I've got a large number of arms for both sides. I can email you color pics if you like?

I'd very much like a copy of that too if you did n't mind….you can never have too much material!

@UglyBloke, I'm glad to oblige you or anyone else. Just shoot me an email here and I'll try and get them off tonight:

Kenshin68@roadrunner.com

@ George. Thanks, I´ll get looking :-D
@ Chris and Uesugi. Thanks for the offers, I´ll hopefully have some time tomorrow to send mails

I too would love a copy if it is not too much trouble. ac1214ac@gmail.com

Thanks – Allen