"Battlefront M113 for CENTAG Cold War gone Hot?" Topic

Dear All,

I'm sure I'm not the only one to consider reroling the Flames of War TDY M113's for use in a European Cold war context!

But can anyone advise which of these variants could be used for US or Bundeswehr Mech Inf? I'm hoping the plain vanilla .50 cal, the 81mm mortar and the 4.2inch mortar?

And if so, when were these M113 variants withdrawn in each Service please?

link

I believe all of them were in the standard US army.

Don't know about the Bundeswehr.

I did see on a previous threat that the Germans swapped out the .50 cals for MG3's, on their M-113s. I guess they thought anti-personnel rounds to be more important than anti-materiel ones.

I forget the designations for the mortared M-113's, but seem to recall the 4.2" ones being assigned to a "Chemical Company", presumably to lay down smoke, white phosphorus, and yes, probably chem rounds, if needed.

I suspect the 81mms were in more general support.

"And if so, when were these M113 variants withdrawn in each Service please?"

The M113/M113A1 depicted by the BF models were in use throughout the 60s and 70s. By the early 1980s, the A1 variant was replaced by the A2 model.

The weapons platoons of each of the three Mech Inf companies in a Mech Inf Bn had a section of 3xM125 (81mm). The Support Company at Battalion level in both the Armor and Mech Bns had a platoon of 4xM106 (4.2").

Mark

Seems to me BF are missing out on a major marketing opportunity here, since you can run a lot of Vietnam games without armor, but the same can't really be said about the Cold War in Europe.

I suspect they'd quadruple their sales, or more, if they offered a Cold War – NATO vs. WP rules set, and/or booklet too.

Perhaps they are working on that, or don't have the capacity to deal with that sort of production volume yet, but seems like a "no brainer" to me.

The mortar platoon also had 3 M577 to use as FDCs. I was a mortar platoon leadeer for the 3/10 Armor Bn in the late 1970s. it was a duakl hat job, HHC XO and mortar platoon leader.

Previously I was a platoon leader of an Armored cavalry platoon. We had 2 M113 (Command and Infnatry squad, one M106 4.2" mortar track + two M113 to use as scouts and two M113s augmented to be TOW vehicles. )lus 3 M551 recon vehicles later replaced by M1s. With 41 men, the largest platoon of both vehicles and men.

We had a company commander who liked to consolidate firepower. In several FXs, he operated consolidated platoons. A 9 M551/ M1s platoon commanded by him; a 3 mortar platoon commanded by the XO; a infnatry platoon of 3 M113s + command track; a 6 Tow track platoon + command and a 6 scout track + command platoon. It was always a formidable formation.

I would love to see BF do a Cold War series, set in the early to mid-eighties (when I trained on M60A3's to repel Warsaw Pact blitzkrieg waves if they invaded Germany). M113's, M60A3's, early Abrams and Bradley's, T-72's, BMP's, T-80's, etc., would be awesome to game with, but it would make money, be popular, so therefore will not be made.

Thanks so much for all this useful info chaps. My Team Yankee project just moved a step closer to reality!

It may be of interest that the next Zvezda 'Art of Tactic' series will be the Cold War, so lots of plastic T72, M1, Bradleys,etc coming out soon. And if you want a really sweet M1, look no further than Khurusan, who are also working on a T62…

Sweet times a comin' for Cold War gamers….

ktb,
Try out these links:
TMP link
link
link

BWW

But QRF, Old Glory and Battlehonors make this stuff already. Why the need to BF to do it?

@ Saber6:

BF Sale, supporting FLGS which is retailer, or something like that? Or just mapping out options.

But yeah, at least for west-germany you can use them, especially if you change the M2 to MG3. Im not sure did some of the M113Gs retain the original M2 equipment, Ive seen one photo about west-german M113 with M2 and it was from early 70s.

Good point Saber6

I think its the detail and cheapness of plastics thats attracting me. I don't know if these will be as good as the PSC WW2 stuff, but it looks as if it might have the edge on the SKytrex/Old Glory stuff, which has just gone up by 50% in the UK…

Yes, the M125 81mm Mortar Tracks were phased out, in the mid 80s when I was in the ROK in a Mech BN. We turned in the 81's and modified the deck where the mortars were. We used them as M113 APCs. As the TO&E ( H to J, IIRC ) changed and we needed the vehicles for Grunts. In HHC we had the M106 4.2in Mortar tracks, 4 or 6, can't remember for sure. These were BN assets. Along with the Scout Plt which had 3 M113s and 3 M901 ITVs. CSC went away and the Heavy mortar and Scout Plts became part of HHC. And each Infantry Co. had 2 ITVs organic to its TO&E. Echo Co. was added all with M901 ITVs. 3 or 4 Plts … BN HQ had an M577 or two … and the S4 had one … And I think the 4.2 in. Plt had an M577 also. It was a long time ago and I'm old …

Sparker -

If you're wanting detail/cheapness, and don't mind going "off scale" a wee bit, go with the Roco/Herpa Minitanks line. They're 18.5mm which works well with 15mm troops on bases. They come pre-built and, if you're doing 1960-70s, they're already in the correct GelbOlive color of Bundeswehr stuff.

Example of BW stuff here: link

M113Gs had slightly different external kit: smoke launchers, headlights, grab irons/tie downs and M3 vs. M2HB.

Wyatt

The West Germans were still using .50s in their unmodified (90mm) M48A2 tanks in the early 70s, so I suppose it's possible that they were also using some .50-armed M113 at the time. However, they'd standardised on the M113G armed with MG3 by the 1980s and the few remaining M48A2s (which continued to serve as pioneer tanks – sometimes with the main gun also removed) normally had their .50s removed. The M48A2GA2 (105mm) tank had an MG3 and lost the cupola of the original M48A2.

The West Germans also used M113 mortar variants (some 81mm and lots of 120mm), albeit again with the MG3 replacing the .50. Their M577s also sometimes had an MG3 fitted.

I've had a bloody good search through piles of ancient Defence Recognition Journals, a couple of books on the M113 in West German service and the web, but I can't find any photos or references to West German M113s having .50s, sorry.

During the 1980s (Heerestruktur 4 organisation) they only used the M125 (81mm mortar variant, but with MG3 replacing .50) in the Mortar Platoon of Mixed Panzer Battalions (i.e. 2x companies of tanks and 1x company of panzergrenadiers). I've no idea why this was so specific or why other types of unit didn't use them.

They didn't use the M106, but they did convert them into the Panzermoerser 120, mounting a Brandt 120mm mortar. These were very similar to the M106 (albeit with MG3 instead of .50) and were found in the Mortar Companies of Panzergrenadier Battalions and 'Heavy' (i.e. M113-mounted) Jaeger Battalions.

link

Chas says Morser is done, M113GA1 almost finished ;-)

Ooo!

Any chance of a Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 or cast-turret Leopard 1?

:)

Yes, and I think so

:o)