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"Ok females for WSS in 28mm are a go.... but" Topic


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Maddaz11105 Dec 2012 6:34 a.m. PST

I have played around with the finances – and if I get the bare-est minimum (pardon the pun) the figures are going to be the following costs

£35.00 GBP -for 15 in the UK
£40.00 GBP -for 15 in Europe
£45.00 GBP -for 15 in US etc
£50.00 GBP -for 15 in Oz!

thats with 200 sales – on kickstarter

These are 28mm – and the sculptor needs to know if he has to do a double shuffle, to have these complete and in my hands by end of February.

At these prices is there still interest?

(double orders will work out slightly less as I can send up to 45 figures for the same postage/handling costs)

If we get beyond 200 sets – then there is the options for more poses, more figures and even cavalry –

contact me by PM or leave a message – the figures should be good – but will be a summer release at the earliest if Kickstarter fails!

altfritz05 Dec 2012 8:56 a.m. PST

Separate the figure cost from the postage. What is the price per figure? And the 15 figures comprise what poses?

And WSS means no bayonets, right? Or plug bayonets, anyway…

Maddaz11105 Dec 2012 9:29 a.m. PST

The idea for poses is

10 troopers in single pose.
Standard bearer
Drummer
Officer
2 Grenadier in single pose. (2 or 3 different heads ?)

I have not decided if bayonet less or not

The 15 figures cost £30.00 GBP – without postage and uk postage is about a fiver.
Postage to States is about £15.00 GBP – but that would be good for up to 3 lots of figures

If this goes ballistic – I mean really takes off – the price per figure will come down – because there will be additional figures to take them up to 18, and alternate poses.. and … and… but the initial investment to get some basic sculpts (semi realistic) will take the lions share of the funding!

I have sat up last night with the spread sheet trying to quantify break even points based on known unknowns! If I was doing this for a profit I would be going fantasy, I am doing it because I want it, but I think there are a number of potential customers who will share my wants.

Stretch goals are far away at the moment, but clearly extra figures & alternate poses are an option…

And if we did double the 200 target – then I would be able to use the small profit to get the sculptor to undertake mounted troops, alternate heads etc.

But as I have asked elsewhere – whilst I want this and have a certain vision in mind, what do you – the potential customers want to see?

Maddaz11105 Dec 2012 9:33 a.m. PST

If I have the Masters in early March, then the Castings will be ready in bulk by the end of April, and shipped then for May.

(I am not saying I will not be selling a second wave of these figures later – but I do not intend to sell these elsewhere until all the kickstarter orders are met)

Prices post kickstarter will be more expensive, and any promo figure/s will be kickstarter or tournament prize exclusive.

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2012 2:42 p.m. PST

bayonets on please..

altfritz05 Dec 2012 3:11 p.m. PST

Then not WSS, but rather WAS or SYW?

Maddaz11105 Dec 2012 3:26 p.m. PST

Plug bayonets – common for first part of the war with some armies,

Socket bayonet – British and Dutch?

If they have bayonets – they can be clipped off, but then they will not be on the belts? – Is this acceptable?

All the WSS figures I have seen with fixed bayonets seem to have socket bayonets?

No turnbacks, therefore not SYW (?)

Justin Penwith05 Dec 2012 6:48 p.m. PST

Socket bayonets first start appearing approximately 30 years before the WSS and a variation on the initial design would likely be seen in most of the combatants. Perhaps some regiments would still have plug bayonets in 1702, but by no means a majority.

The question should rather be whether or ot the socket or ring bayonets should be fixed or not. If not, put it in its scabbard on the belt, please.

spontoon05 Dec 2012 7:19 p.m. PST

It would probably depend on the country whether they still had plug bayonets. Maybe the colonel, too; since they " owned " the regiments then. Sweden and Russia still had pike detachments in their battalions!

Maddaz11105 Dec 2012 7:26 p.m. PST

I like bayonets on for figures doing something.. such as fighting, but I do not like them on when marching.

I agree that most would have access to bayonets, but some units might still be on plug bayonets until 1707.

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2012 7:48 p.m. PST

socket bayonets fixed, scabbards with frogs, or unfixed bayonet in frogged scabbard plug bayonetswould be very uncommen after 1700. it was quite the short term fix plug bayonets..As practically all their time was spent marching into action fixed socket bayonets in any combat situation would be the norm

Musketier06 Dec 2012 12:19 p.m. PST

Some concept art would be good, as an idea of what people are letting themselves in for?

Edit: Oh and I second socket bayonets fixed – always easier to remove than to add.

Maddaz11106 Dec 2012 1:35 p.m. PST

I am not launching the kickstarter until there are a couple of greens at least in progress.

I am still seeking ideas – so if you have suggestions – such as bayonets always fixed, always wearing coats, some with floppy informal tricorns, High mitre as primary for grenadiers, Sword bayonets instead of triangular bayonets.

I will be getting some concept art – but I think you will be happier seeing some pictures of real greens in progress.

I will be going live very soon.

Thanks for your comments.

So far it is

Troopers in coats, wearing formal tricorns, with socket bayonets fitted, with sword & scabbard, wearing slightly unrealistic longer boots. Pose one marching, pose two firing.

Drummer with shoulder lace, large cuffs & lace. Correct size drum (probably fractionally larger than drums included in some manufacturers sets) Tricorn with clear lace

Standard bearer, again in lacy uniform.

Officer with more lace, flashy hat, (alternate ?) holding sword in a forward pose.

Grenadier with grenade bowling underarm, high mitre, slung musket.

Promo figure – (KS exclusive) officer in waistcoat, sword/pistol, lace enhanced tricorn, probably tighter fit all round, long thigh dragoon boots (?).

Comments please?

If this does better than £3,500.00 GBP then their will be alternate heads, and alternate poses – as stretch goals.

abdul666lw06 Dec 2012 1:41 p.m. PST

A few piques (GNW is almost contemporary) would indeed be useful for those Imagi-Nation ruler wanting to raise a female *militia* unit.
A deviant type of pique was used in Ireland in 1798 TMP link Figurines so armed could double as sergeants in a "regular" unit.

Maddaz11106 Dec 2012 3:18 p.m. PST

ahh yes pikes,

but don't mention turn backs for the great northern war, as that way lies transitional troops for the seven years war.

I might do such troops in a later kickstarter ?

I will be going for a second KS if this one is a big success. one of the essential purchases will be a new melting pot, as the current one is very expensive to run.

I am hoping that the new metal miniatures will be joined with both horse and dragons,

altfritz06 Dec 2012 8:19 p.m. PST

I wouldn't bother with the firing figures. Marching troops is all you need for Lace Wars, IMO. (Unless you are doing irregular troops like Croats.)

abdul666lw07 Dec 2012 2:45 a.m. PST

I wouldn't bother with the firing figures. Marching troops is all you need for Lace Wars, IMO.

Totally seconded; what is more, troops in 'attack march' are more versatile than purely 'marching' ones with musket resting on the shoulder: who look quite silly when in hand-to-hand

Maddaz11107 Dec 2012 3:45 a.m. PST

I also agree that marching poses are popular, but some people will be wanting fighting poses, and I personally do not want to do the old Airfix style bayonet running pose.

Do you think the French carry pose for muskets is important enough to be included as an option, and would that be a priority over a firing pose.

I would sooner you comment here rather than say when the kickstarter does go live that these are not quite what you are looking for.

If I had the lottery jackpot, you would get the drill manual of poses, including figures loading, ramming home (ooh), priming and taking a cartridge. I however am having to instruct a sculptor to do a base range, and unless there is a lot of money in the range five poses for infantry looks like being at the very top end of what is practical.

Please also remember that I am tying a little of my own meagre funds into this project because it is something that I want for my own tabletop. I support this hobby because I have enjoyed many games on the table top with many opponents
over many years.

Maddaz11107 Dec 2012 4:59 a.m. PST

Just read What I typed earlier!

No dragons are being planned.

Dragoons are being planned!

(damn autocorrect)

abdul666lw07 Dec 2012 5:28 a.m. PST

For 'army camp fairies' in various states of undress TMP link very inspirational images (NSFW !) at the end of YouTube link and the beginning of YouTube link

picture

and "bathing ladies" there: YouTube link (NSFW again!)


Btw, nice 'Germanic' bodice (Oktoberfest type) which would NOT look out of place in a 'liberated' 18th C. setting: link

Maddaz11107 Dec 2012 3:54 p.m. PST

Any comments – on the liberated bodice, Camp hangers on in un-dress

Bathing ladies are a no no at the moment!

abdul666lw08 Dec 2012 2:41 a.m. PST

Bathing ladies in their tub are indeed already done enough (for the time being) by Eureka and the 'spoiled doves'. I guess there will not be any feverish flame war about the 'historical accuracy' of their 'field bath tube' grin

abdul666lw08 Dec 2012 10:05 a.m. PST

Btw camp 'fairies' / followers / hangers on in various states of undress, being far less 'period specific', would enjoy a potential wider market!

picture

Musketier08 Dec 2012 12:13 p.m. PST

Coming back to the soldiers for a moment, an advancing pose with the musket held at approx. 45° might be more versatile than the firing one? The latter almost has to be partnered with loading and "at ready" ones to make sense.

abdul666lw08 Dec 2012 12:54 p.m. PST

With the musket at # 45° in the vertical plane *but* inclined forward (almost 'charging', e.g.

picture
right &
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) it may be hard to place the figurines in two close enough ranks pr the Lace Wars and their (relatively) thin lines of infantry.
A marching miniature with the musket held close to the body would be more 'versatile' link
link
picture

picture

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Firing (even standing, not to speak of kneeling), loading &c… poses

picture
look totally silly when the unit is supposed to be marching. They are good for skirmish games, specially if one bothers to have several minis in different poses for each 'individual character'.
Soldiers marching with the musket resting on the shoulder don't really look adequate when the unit is supposed to be firing, and rather silly when in hand-to-hand. 'Offensive advance' is the most 'generic' / multipurpose pose.

Musketier08 Dec 2012 1:56 p.m. PST

Obviously I did not mean a "charging" figure, or I would have said so, but one advancing with the musket held in front. That 1806 grenadier should work perfectly well in two ranks. The drill movement is called "high porte" I believe, and was the one preceding the first rank levelling bayonets for the charge, while the rear ranks remained at high porte.

It also resembles somewhat the next to last position in your firing sequence, and should thus provide an acceptable "fudge" for a unit about to fire as well. – Indeed, the most versatile of poses, which is probably why Minifigs chose it all those decades ago.

Maddaz11109 Dec 2012 4:48 a.m. PST

Have to admit was chatting about the ranking up problem with one of my friends last night. I think I have settled on a two marching poses ( left and right foot forward )

if I was to do a carry pose for the French, with the lock held in the crook of the arm, would that be popular?

I am also looking at a forward/slope arms sort of pose and that might be one option.

high mitre cap first? tricorn and floppy friction and bare headed?

I will only do firing if I can do enough poses to do a representative loading and priming and ramming and fishing round out of cartridge box poses.

anyone got the definitive image of these figures yet, as I am still wobbling on coat open, coat flapping, waistcoat only, open bodice, cravat hiding the ……, and various options for breeches and gaiters.

Paint Pig09 Dec 2012 5:02 a.m. PST

I'm reading a lot about the norm for wss female warriors, what the? It is a feckin female imagination army, why the tendancy to encourage strict regulation (ie male) outfitting and accoutrment. Did females citizens in the various civil professions and trades dress exactly like their male counter parts? Heres hint, no!

It is a great idea Maddaz and I like your free flowing ideas, keep up the good work. PM on the way.

regards
dave

abdul666lw09 Dec 2012 5:51 a.m. PST

@ Maddaz: great project indeed, cheers!

.

@ Musketier: not to sound nitpicking, but on paintings

picture

(and yes, I know its not contemporary); this one is:
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infantry lines look very thin. Unit depth is always out of scale in 18th C. table-top 'linear' battles, but to approximate at best the linear look ranks within unit have to be very closely packed.

.

@ Dave: indeed Robida in the late 19th C. designed some 'futuristic' "active women" costumes (extrapolating mainly from the 'new' bicycle rider dress, in more 'liberated') which were NOT straight copies of male clothes:
link

picture

link
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but in an 'alternate' and very 'enlightened' (read 'libertine' according to the devout) they can be more… revealing.
(Steampunk Super Heroines – DC Comics Part 2 – Heroines of 1887 by Michael Dooney) (great work btw thumbs up)

picture

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and maybe chiefly (ignore 'steampunk' goggles and suspenders, garters instead)
picture

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abdul666lw09 Dec 2012 10:04 a.m. PST

For the intrigued, Robida's link Le Vingtième Siècle (1883) can be read on-line, in French but with all the original illustrations: link

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abdul666lw10 Dec 2012 4:34 a.m. PST

Will 3D CAD be followed by 3D printing of the 'masters'? In this case you could satisfy the 15mm gamers as well as the 28mm ones?
Then, while '28mm' is relatively well defined by opposition to 25 and 30mm -say # 1/63- '15mm' in practice is a 'fuzzy' concept. Be sure any '15mm' female soldiers are compatible with (i.e. ideally slightly smaller, but in any case no taller, than) the male minis used by 'Lace Wars in 15mm' players interested in women soldiers, specially if they play the WSS: first among them TMP member Luis TMP link

Maddaz11110 Dec 2012 5:05 a.m. PST

I am not producing these figures by 3d cad – I am having them properly sculpted by a proffessional sculptor.

I may CAD the artillery pieces (barrels and carriages), but at the moment a 15mm range would be sculpted onto dollies (and therefore a whole new kettle of fish)

I am trying to CAD pieces so that I can visualise posing and styles – but it is hit and miss, I do have a friend who paints and drafts poses etc, and when I did model 3d – I got my GF to pose whilst I used technology.

But if my business really takes off – I will get sculptors to work on a 15mm range.

I have set the sculptors to work on test figures for the VBCW 1937-1939 and hope to have two females for the workers militia to show on here soon. I will also be kickstarting those (after the WSS one has closed and the casting has begun in April/May)

Maddaz11110 Dec 2012 5:11 a.m. PST

I have also decided to push the delivery date back by a month, on the expectation that additional sculpts may be needed – So it will be June/ July UK Europe, July/August for rest of the world.

If we just meet the target and the base figures are all that is needed it will revert to May/June (assuming the ten days shipping to continental US is correct)

(I may have to transfer another sculptor to the project if we get to artillery crew (but if we get there than I am sure that people will be happy to get two packages)

Crofter10 Dec 2012 4:17 p.m. PST

3d cad and printing would be of much greater benefit after the masters have been "physical world" sculpted, this allows for production masters of alternative scales via scanning of the originals.

The latest offering by WF in regards to the artillery figures tends to show that 3d design does not always produce the best results

salut

Maddaz11111 Dec 2012 3:59 a.m. PST

doh.

Whilst sketching out poses on pc, if I put the musket in a forty five degree angle covering the front of the body, you cannot see the womanly shape that is nominally of importance.

marching pose is better,

I think a carry pose across the body at a lower angle might be better?

Thoughts?

Aiming to start in less than ten days with the kickstarter.

abdul666lw11 Dec 2012 5:20 a.m. PST

Lower (or higher, not to mask the silhouette anyway? Could make painting the face difficult?) angle in the *vertical* plane, but not too inclined, in order to allow é closely packed ranks.

Maddaz11111 Dec 2012 5:58 a.m. PST

lower as across the body between the waist and chest, like one of the poses above.

abdul666lw12 Dec 2012 5:56 a.m. PST

Re your design there link while I occasionally appreciate long (then *very* long coats on women YouTube link / YouTube link and indeed a 'Brotherhood of the Wolf' like longcoat reaching the heels but open in front would be an interesting approach)

picture

for *attractive* (they are unhistorical anyway, so….) 18th C. female soldiers alternatively it could be short. And you *do* have a very historical precedent / justification: the 'riding habit' of late 17th – 18th C. ladies (inspired by military uniforms) had a rather short jacket.

picture

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AnneOleary12 Dec 2012 7:43 a.m. PST

I think you'll easily hit your target. You've got cross-over potential here between the fantasy and the wargame markets. Men love women and this will sale. Give us bayonets with fixed poses as the starter then do additional dynamic poses as stretch goals. I'd also like to see a mounted Command group as part of a stretch goal. If this thing goes over the top, I'd love cavalry too for stretch goals. Compared to Kickstarters I've gotten into your prices are great.

Please, please, please make the faces feminine. No hard, square jaw-lines or heavy brows.

PS I'm a drummer and I really want to see that female drummer!

Maddaz11112 Dec 2012 9:19 a.m. PST

The red coat above, with an officers sash and a sword,
bigger cuffs though!

Anne, I hope that a drummer that is natural, with a large realistic sized drum, drumming the beat is what you are looking for.. because that is what I want to provide.

Mounted command are being considered, which should be available in the larger packs (combinations of smaller pledge goals)

Maddaz11112 Dec 2012 9:24 a.m. PST

And probably launching in seven days –

And running to about 3rd of February.

Maddaz11112 Dec 2012 3:33 p.m. PST

Just trying to sort out the pledge levels…

So for my base pledges (just trying to sort out costs so these are work in progress)

15 figures – £35.00 GBP
30 figures – £70.00 GBP
60 figures – £140.00 GBP
120 figures – £250.00 GBP

These are for fifteen figure units – so drummer, Standard and officer 2 grenadiers, and 10 troopers. in multiples?

Would people want to have bigger units? (18 figure and 24 figure sizes are popular… but I do not want to have lots of fiddly pledge points…) what do you think.

I am still thinking about stretch goals, and the sculptors are still talking to me (which is a good sign…)

And yes – can someone suggest a catchy name – PM me here, or add a post.

Personal logo Jlundberg Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2012 12:47 p.m. PST

I could have been tempted – but the price is too high to get me into a side project

Come In Nighthawk13 Dec 2012 1:04 p.m. PST

Two thoughts? Why only one colour-bearer per package when almost every European state at the time had at least two colours carried by a battalion? And -- just askin' -- why the early-1700s War of Spanish Succession (must'a missed that explanation)? Thanks!!

abdul666lw13 Dec 2012 1:12 p.m. PST

- An 'Old School' battalion of infantry (Charles Grant's "The War Game") is 48 rank-&-files strong, so you'll have your 2 colour-bearers wink Smaller units with 2 flags tend to look like colour parties, not fighting bodies.

- These leaves room for a WAS range between this WSS one and the SYW Sandras. All 3 would be complementary rather than in competition: for instance by ca. 1745 traditional Guard units as well as countryside militia can wear out-fashioned uniforms while some 'experimental' units are already in 'Prussian' dress.

Maddaz11113 Dec 2012 3:29 p.m. PST

To answer Nighthawk.

Because it is Fantasy – and to do crazy turnbacks for the later lace wars period might have suited some, would not suit me (but might become available later (hint!))

And because I need to offer stretch goals (2nd hint)

I might put in new pledge points as the campaign progresses to include a sculpt or two extra (?) these might be duplicates of current figures, larger units, extra figures (spontoon armed/pike armed?) officers mounted and on foot, and what have you.

I have lots of price points and pledge levels planned – that are hopefully going to be reached… and there may be surprises on the way…

I hope to do a GNW uniforms lace wars range – with Swedish Turnbacks, and options for Karpus and Pokalom … but that will have to come next year.

abdul666lw14 Dec 2012 5:20 a.m. PST

The success of the range will largely depend upon the quality / femininity of the sculpts, specially on cute feminine faces (maybe so slightly feline / elvish ?)

picture

TMP link

Sergeants with halberd, junior officer with spontoon, fifer…

Maybe 'Highland Lassies' TMP link (Loyales Ecossaises?) as a future unit?

Musketier14 Dec 2012 12:35 p.m. PST

Maybe make it multiples of 24 figure units? That would cater to "Old Schoolers" as well as to the "four elements set". In any case, an even number would appear to make more sense as a starting point than 15.

Maddaz11114 Dec 2012 6:20 p.m. PST

I have been sat over the excel spreadsheet again…

a 24 figure battalion option would be £50.00 GBP + £10.00 GBP postage to the states (approx)

48 figures would be £100.00 GBP or thereabouts

I will if the kickstarter is working – set pledge levels that customers contact me for – if you want to buy 30 drummers and a brigadier dismounted figure… then I will set a pledge level for it!

(Remember that these pledge levels build a little in for stretch goals … such as exclusive figures and what not).

PM me if you want to discuss further…

Dames en Dentelle – D-en-D looks like a good name to me so far… but keep them coming.

I think there might be a grand stretch goal for something really special…

abdul666lw17 Dec 2012 4:37 a.m. PST

why the early-1700s War of Spanish Succession?

Seemingly the amateur military fashion designers find the early 18th C. specially inspirational;
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link
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