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"Art or Fashion Historian's help needed..." Topic


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3,095 hits since 2 Dec 2012
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
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Come In Nighthawk02 Dec 2012 11:31 p.m. PST

Being of an irreverent sort of bent at times, I tire of seeing tents and other inanimate impedimenta used as battle "objective" markers, and as vignettes to "color" a games table. I was thinking -- there are things that go ON in those tents besides snoring, things to do with 18C femme undergarments… "know what I mean, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more!" wink

Now, Foundry makes Abigail, the lady reclining on a divan, in their 17/18C "Civilians" range, at "CIV005 – The Chevalier." Useful, but one would not exactly find a gurl and her furniture out in the company lines! Maybe in the General's Pavilion, but… On the other hand Molly, her female companion, is useful, but Molly's just one lone standing female figure. Then there IS Gwen, the horse-faced woman sitting on the British grenadier, Sgt. Hadley's knee; "SYWB013 – British Grenadiers Wenching." Again, of somewhat limited utility. So…

Foundry also makes some "femmes fatalities" grin of possible usage in the Wild West and the Victorians ranges. There are two "Soiled Doves," in "OW112 – Out On The Town," and some gurlz of ill-repute in "VIC005 -- Ladies of the Night," and in "VIC031 -- Armed Ladies of the Night." Knuckleduster has a whole "squad" of "Green Gowns" in "OW28-305 -- Soiled Doves."

So, this is where I need an Art or Fashion Historian's help. Can I get away with using mid-19C femmes in their mid-19C "scanties" as portrayed/produced by Foundry and others (e.g., Knuckleduster?) in a bawdy mid-18C SYW camp scene that demands mid-18C femmes in their mid-18C "smalls??" With exceptions, they are "only" wearing a corset (or part-wearing it) over their chemise? Granted the chemise has no sleeves -- okay, its the summer campaign season!!! thumbs up

Or am I hopelessly doomed, DOOMED to using JUST Abigail, Molly, and Gwen??? Inquiring minds want to know! grin

Personal logo Virtualscratchbuilder Supporting Member of TMP Fezian03 Dec 2012 4:23 a.m. PST

The fashion industry wife says the Knuckleduster soiled gals would work fine.

bsrlee03 Dec 2012 4:42 a.m. PST

Eureka 28mm – Transports of Delight & Pax Limpopo ranges have partly clad persons of both genders in a variety of poses, plus a lamp post if needed.

abdul666lw03 Dec 2012 6:10 a.m. PST

No (under)pants / drawers (Cancan & 'burlesque' dancers were the first adult women to wear such) before the 2nd half of the 19th C.; this excludes at least one of the 'soiled doves'(one of them spare you buying the Victorian lady in her bath, btw).
No suspenders, garters almost compulsory (can be painted on)

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link
link .
Aurora Models 'street girl'
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(& perhaps 'sleeping beauty'?)
The upper 3 'Ladies of the night' at least would not look blatantly out of place in a Lace Wars camp (perhaps giving a tricorne to the middle one?), imho.
While basically 'medieval' some 'inn staff / serving wenches' Hasslefree link Hovels link … (seemingly Bronze Age discontinued most of the 'townfolk', unfortunately). Reaper and Dark Sword deserve to be browsed.
link
picture


Look at the pirate ranges, some have a 'wharf faerie' or 'female servant'.
Fiendish 'Mother Mutton' would not be out of place in a 18th c. camp, but does NOT fit your description! link

Now a lot of nudes are available as 'harem girls' (no longer Hasslefree it seems, but still Bronze Age Sci-Fi I believe. The Ral Partha 'slave auction' periodically appears on ebay.Tin Man has a few 'nude' (re. their 'adult' catalog).

Now, their ears 'normalized' Foundry female 'Revenant Elves' could fit in a 18th C. setting (perhaps more as witches or vampires, but rather easily as camp followers / 'high brass' mistresses):

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Come In Nighthawk03 Dec 2012 9:35 a.m. PST

Trying to make up an order soon -- assuming I can find these "doves" in one place!! Good LUCK! Okay, seriously… NOT to cut off discussion, as more help is greatly appreciated; this does not have to be done in only a single order or to one vendor.

However, the consensus so far would seem to be:

A) One or two of the Knuckleduster "doves" would work -- counting them from left to right and top to bottom (no pun intended), as, top row A-B-C, and bottom D-E, with E being the bathing "dove."

A & B should work --- its not clear either have "pants" on under their "chemises," and as abdul666lw notes, the "compulsory" 18C garters that hold up their linen stockings can be painted on anyway where leg is showing (when were silk stockings invented?). Fig. C is "right out" --- she's all-too-clearly wearing 19C "pants!" However, I could use her on another project so its not a complete waste of cash on the set. Probably "ditto" on D, but the photo is indistinct. Finally, there is nothing wrong with E then? Hip bath not the wrong style or shape for the 18C?? huh?

B) In fact Knuckleduster's "dove" in her bath is an interesting juxtaposition to 'Phelia Phondelwell from Eureka. I have 'Phelia in her hip bath already, as well as the street walker holding up the gas lantern, err, leaning on it!! However, I thought the saloon dancer was TOO "19C," so passed on her. I did also pick up the Chinese twins! Not sure how many Chinese were found in the "baggage train" of a SYW army though, but they can go to that other project…

C) I have a number of the "inn staff/serving wenches" and strumpets from Hasslefree already, including the two abdul666lw shows above. I had already figured they'd be okay. Didn't think to mention figures I already had on hand as the gist of the question (in my mind) was simply to inquire if the 19C figures from Foundry and/or Knuckleduster would work in the 18C? Now that I think about it, I should have given some hint as to the figures I already had; Sorry! grin

D) The five Foundry figures from "VC031 – Armed Ladies Of The Night (Victoriana Miniatures)" should be okay? Aside maybe from trying to contrive a tricorne on their heads (or some of them anyway)? None show "pants," and on the one showing some leg, it looks like only a garter is showing?

E) How about "VIC005?" Using the same method as with Knuckleduster, the top row, A-B-C look okay to me? I think the bottom row, D & E, look too "19C" and they will have to be used on another project?

F) Had my eye on the Laughing Monk figures and for some reason decided against them for this project. But as a general's strumpet, errr, general's lady, "The Scarlet Woman" would seem to be okay? abdul666lw points her out specifically, above. However, I'm slightly worried as, are not Laughing Monk figures 32mm, not 28mm? I suppose she could always be his 6-foot-four piece of crumpet…???

G) Same issue with the Aurora Models "street girl." I'd found her in a search a long while ago. She'd be a GREAT figure for this project, but she is WAY out of scale at nearly 40mm tall (or 37 or 38mm anyway).

H) If I could find the five "Renevant Elves" in one set, then a subtler paint scheme not inspired by Abraham Stoker, and bobbing their ears, would make them interesting, but the prospect of shelling out what is effectively $15 USD for each one of them is off-putting. However, I would say that some of their male companions could make interesting "pye-rats!" And the "cherubs," suitably impaled upon thin rods, could make interesting finials instead of spear-points for sets of regimental colours!!! wink

An additional note -- hadn't thought about pure nudes for this project. Won't rule it out, as obviously THAT would solve the problem of the camp followers wearing the wrong underwear!!!!!!! grin But for now, I shall keep questing for gurlz in various states of 18C disrobement… Keep those suggestions coming? thumbs up

Personal logo Atomic Floozy Supporting Member of TMP03 Dec 2012 10:26 a.m. PST

Are you looking for complete accuracy? The basic undergarment of the time was the shift or "chemise". In the Knuckleduster range, only B would work. I can't see the back of Foundry's miniatures, but of Vic031 only one or two would work providing the skirt doesn't have a bustle. The hats are all wrong. In the 18th century, garters were tied below the knee & the stocking folded over it, so stockings looked mostly like knee socks.

link

Any woman with corset, pleated petticoats & hair down would work. But once you start looking at figures wearing outer clothing like the Victorian Ladies of the Night, you start running into problems. Hairstyles & hats can also betray you.

But if it is just a fun piece, you can get away with just about anything, because most men don't notice fashion.

-- Elaine

jpattern2 Supporting Member of TMP03 Dec 2012 10:28 a.m. PST

As Elaine says, I was wondering if some Ancients would work, especially girls in simple tunics or shifts.

abdul666lw03 Dec 2012 2:13 p.m. PST

<>"Ancients in simple tunics": who knows how the Lace Wars equivalent of a 'baby doll' looked like? An intriguing question…

Indeed before the advent of elastic stockings were just high stocks held by a garter just below or above the knee.

picture

But for decades now comics and Hollywood accustomed us to 'modern' stockings and garters in 17th C. – early 19th C. settings:
picture

(Milady de Winter in the last '3 Musketeers') so perhaps in a 'not too dramatically historical' context they can be deemed part of 'traditional imagery' just like the chainmail bikini in sword & sorcery?

Fenryll minis are basically 'medieval' link but some female civilians look quite 'generic':

picture

picture

picture


.

picture

(well, at least the one on the left, attached to a cavalry unit or HQ ¨grin*)

poiter5003 Dec 2012 7:37 p.m. PST

Eureka Minis has some nice Harem figures which would transpose.

Come In Nighthawk03 Dec 2012 8:15 p.m. PST

Eureka Minis has some nice Harem figures…
You know, I hadn't thought about that harem since it IS a harem… That said, I am also looking at building a small Ottoman "contingent" for the Turkenkrieg to give my small Austrian contingent another war-gaming option. Maybe the Vizier needs some… diversions! wink

abdul666lw04 Dec 2012 4:49 a.m. PST

If they are skin-clad (as also Hasslefree Acenith link) forget their 'harem' origin, they can be perfectly free local bathing girls

picture

( link ):
picture

TMP link

.

Not immediately related (huh?): (fanciful) images of a French HQ: YouTube link

Come In Nighthawk04 Dec 2012 6:03 a.m. PST

This is drifting away from "girls & their garters of the 18C," but, I do have a few of the Hasselfree harem gurlz. In fact, it is those figures which cause me to lament that Foundry made Abigail and her divan a OPC. huh? They thus made it impossible to place Abby in some other setting than laying about on a piece of furniture, and, also made it impossible to loan her divan to anyone else!! frown

abdul666lw04 Dec 2012 6:17 a.m. PST

I vaguely remember -but it was on the TMP hobby news, and their archives are not searchable (as yet: Venerated Editor please note?)- a 28mm model of 17th C. general / lord coach, roof removable, with the Great Man and his mistress (and some victuals pierumvodkawine) inside. But I fear the couple was another one piece casting?

abdul666lw04 Dec 2012 9:15 a.m. PST

@ Come In Nighthawk: do you have a blog? The easiest (for the poster) and most friendly support to share your projects and progresses.

Come In Nighthawk04 Dec 2012 12:59 p.m. PST

@abdul666lw wink At the risk of completely embarrassing myself, yes. But I must stress that the STRESS of "the daily round" since I started it in August has meant that really NOTHING has been pasted up there save a short explanation of what I hope to do with it, and a few rants about not being able to find time to do any serious thinking, plotting, planning, painting or war-gaming so as to put anything up!!! laugh Maybe I will get a breather for a few days at least over the holidays… huh?

Here it is: nineyearswar.blogspot.com I'd say "enjoy," but there really IS nothing there to see yet… frown

willthepiper04 Dec 2012 4:29 p.m. PST

If you don't object to women who are actually wearing clothing, Eureka has a few sets of 18th Century civilians:
link
link
link
link

Come In Nighthawk04 Dec 2012 7:52 p.m. PST

If you don't object to women who are actually wearing clothing, Eureka…
Got 'em -- all four! As I noted, its some gurlz in stages of undress that I need in order to round out the group of figures I already have, male and female, who are dressed. I want some lively vignettes for my camp scenes!

Can't you just picture the Minister from the Foundry Prussian camp followers set "lecturing" one of these figures for which I search? There she would be, emerging from a soldier's tent with little else on but her chemise, and adjusting a stocking or something??? wink Who want's just a couple tents in a neat row with a cook pot out front and a stack of muskets!!? BORING! huh?

BTW, I also have Eureka's "18th Century String Quartet," "C. E. Bach at the clavichord," "Fred' playing the flute," and "Voltaire and Fred'; The Great Debate." thumbs up

My favorite of all those Eureka sets I would say is probably the "maid" from "Captive Audience," sitting on the floor holding her piggie… Gott'a find time to paint her -- she'll be GREAT in a camp scene!!! "Noooo sergeant, you can NOT cook Porky, he's my pet!!!!" grin

willthepiper04 Dec 2012 9:11 p.m. PST

I've just finished painting the lady with the pig. No idea what to do with her yet, but I'm certain she'll find her own role!

All the other ones you mentioned are still waiting in the "to do" pile, though…

Come In Nighthawk05 Dec 2012 11:23 a.m. PST

I've just finished painting the lady with the pig. No idea what to do with her yet…
Don't you mean… no idea what to do besides posting a pix so we can see how she turned out!!?? wink

abdul666lw05 Dec 2012 2:50 p.m. PST

Empress Maria-Theresa in night gown

picture

and with her military commanders
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(from the movie La Tour prends garde !' with Jean Marais, 1958 link Historical accuracy NOT warranted! grin
(currently available on Youtube dubbed in Polish -well, I'm not sure- as several parts as "Kawaler Króla" YouTube link).
Camp scene from the same movie:
picture


All (less than a handful, actually) French swashbuckling movies set during the Lace Wars TMP link have the WAS as background; of course, 'we' were on the winning side in that one wink

willthepiper05 Dec 2012 9:44 p.m. PST

Don't you mean… no idea what to do besides posting a pix so we can see how she turned out!!??

abdul666lw06 Dec 2012 2:34 a.m. PST

"In every man there is a pig sleeping: awaken him'"

abdul666lw07 Dec 2012 5:33 a.m. PST

@ Come In Nighthawk: post your wishes there: TMP link
Nothing to lose, and 'Nothing ventured, nothing gained'thumbs up

Come In Nighthawk07 Dec 2012 7:19 p.m. PST

@abdul666lw. I'd read that thread. I have the impression the design there was principally to produce gurlz in WSS uniforms (even if the author might entertain them -- or might not -- in stages of undress or dishevelment). But I formed the impression reading the thread it was NOT for gurlz in their underwear??

abdul666lw08 Dec 2012 2:38 a.m. PST

@ Come In Nighthawk: according to his first posts (on the 'Sandras' thread i I remember well? And PM) some 'camp followers' in various states of undress were also planned, though maybe in a second wave.

Nasty Canasta Inactive Member08 Dec 2012 6:22 a.m. PST

Let's be straight here guys. Scantily clad or nude women gathered around a tent is a more inspiring objective to capture than another vignette of Napoleon's staff.

abdul666lw08 Dec 2012 6:44 a.m. PST

Scantily clad or nude women gathered around a tent is a more inspiring objective to capture than another vignette of Napoleon's staff.

What about that anecdote of the mistress of a Napoleonic French Marshal appearing in very incomplete (hussar?) uniform?

.

Even with the pipe removed the bath tub of Crocodile Games "Bathtime for Bubbles" link may look too 'modern' for a Horse & Musket vignette (specially for a 'field' bath tub)

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but the girls herself (without the rubber duck)
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could easily be inserted in a charming 'bathing in a spring' vignette see e.g. my 12.04 post above).

Crofter Inactive Member10 Dec 2012 4:25 p.m. PST

Mr Nighthawk you would do well to take a look at the hasslefree miniatures range. Kevin has sculpted some beautifull female castings that are sure to please and can be readily adapted to your needs, the gents in my tents are never bored

salut

CooperSteveOnTheLaptop11 Dec 2012 5:13 a.m. PST

Bubbles looks like Kylie?

AnneOleary Inactive Member12 Dec 2012 7:30 a.m. PST

I prefer the Hasslefree over the Foundry for these kind of figures because they look more feminine. When dealing with Foundry females I file the jaw lines down to taper into the chin and soften up the heavy brow bone.

At the end of the day, it's your project and unless you've got people who are going to nit pick historical details do what's aesthetically pleasing.

Come In Nighthawk12 Dec 2012 7:12 p.m. PST

@AnneOleary. You don't happen to have a "how I did it" on your blog? I.E.,

When dealing with Foundry females I file the jaw lines down to taper into the chin and soften up the heavy brow bone.
Inquiring minds would like to know! grin

abdul666lw13 Dec 2012 5:11 a.m. PST

Nighthawk do you know of these Old Glory link ?

Come In Nighthawk13 Dec 2012 9:17 a.m. PST

@Chef du Whip. Thanks. Had thought of a few of those Hasslefrees "lounging about" like their hareem gurlz, and have several of them already in fact, along with Bronze Age Minis' "amazons" in similar poses. I hadn't realized BAM's ladies were really more like 30mm/32mm until I had gotten them [Yes I know, he says clearly they are 32s on his website, but I'd gotten the one's I have o/h in a deal, not direct from him]. grin

abdul666lw17 Dec 2012 4:49 a.m. PST

picture

Unfortunately in 40mm.
But an inspirational design.
A shameful wish: that some enterprising Chinese copy her in 28mm, in the same way as 3D Models reproduced the Eureka 28mm Sandras in 1/72…

.

Catherin II in 'private' clothes
YouTube link but their historicity is not warranted grin

abdul666lw17 Dec 2012 6:33 a.m. PST

Not so shameful an idea, actually: such 'coincidences' happen, compare these two ladies with 'high' Marie-Antoinette hair and umbrella:

picture

picture

grin

Come In Nighthawk17 Dec 2012 11:05 a.m. PST

@abdul666lw Yes, a pity that figure is 40mm. I've a use for just such a one as that. thumbs up

Interestingly, I have both those sets, Foundry's and Blue Moon's. That's because I don't need all the femmes in & around my armies' encampments to be in stages of undress, or in military habit! And ladies found promenading in the towns and villes that would grace the one side or another of an occasional given battlefield… even with a cannonade in the distance, would also be clothed… mostly!! Now, if I only had time to get to painting them!! grin

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