"Help: how to build a 3-D naval playing area?" Topic

We recently downloaded a set of rules that I found on another TMP discussion that looked very interesting. TMP link After discussing these rules at the club last night we got very excited about giving them a try. But after some further planning and plotting we decided to step up the appearance a bit. We are going to mount our subs on telescoping flight stands so we can simulate the different depths visually. The crisis in our planning came when we addressed the issue of surface ships: How do we have them above our subs? What we have thought of trying to build is a raised surface made of plexi-glass or some similar material (perhaps fluorescent light covers, etc.) that stands about two feet above the table. The issue is how do we do this in a stable manner that can be broken down and stored or transported? Has anyone ever seen this before or have any suggestions? Our playing area is about four feet by 8 feet. And did I mention that the budget is rather limited?
Any suggestions or guidance is much appreciated.

I think the easiest approach would be to mount the ships on the same type of telescoping stands, just have their's fixed at "sea level". Or perhaps these could even be platforms capable of holding multiple ships. I think a fixed surface, although very cool, would be expensive and not easy to deal with.

It will cost a couple of bucks, but you start with 4' x 8' plastic sheets. Support it with a frame of plastic square tubes. You can make corner posts from heavier tubes or rods.

link

IIRC a set of rules in Arthur Taylor's Discovering Wargame Rules book used a thin mesh (a net curtain maybe ?) above the table to allow for land and air elements in the same game. Could use something like this perhaps ?

Cold Steel's solution sounds sturdier !

Just have the surface ships on the playing surface and negate the depth. So the deeper subs are higher and the shallower subs are closer to the playing surface.

A simple solution is to get some disposable wine or Champagne glasses. You turn them upside down and mount your surface ship on the glass. Works well. If you want to be lazy contact Litko. They make raised movement trays for one of the SF boardgames which could be used. They would probably provide them with longer legs if you asked.

Plexiglass surface, plastic tubes slightly larger than some plastic rod, rubber O rings. Glue pieces of the plastic tube to the bottom of the plastic sheet. Put O rings on plastic rod and insert into the tubes. The O ring gives the leg stability but allows for removal.

Alternately contact Corsec engineering. They have threaded rods which with a bit of imagination could be configured to support a plastic surface.

Or you could put the ships on the table and play withe subs underneath the table?

A simple solution is to get some disposable wine or Champagne glasses.

Disposable? Sir, we are *naval wargamers*, not savages!

Check this out: link

It is made for use with fantasy mini's games, but it is highly adaptable. It requires wooden dowels, a plywood square base, and some peel-n-stick floor tiles (around $0.60 USD per square foot), to use as the raise-able platforms, and some small clothe pins.

I will be adapting it to use with WWI aeroplanes, for Red Baron games. The PDF is $1.50 USD. After that, visit your local DIY store for a small 4-foot square) piece of 1/2-inch plywood, some wooden dowels (5/16" diameter), and some vinyl peel-n-stick floor tiles. The instructions call for plywood to be used as the platforms that are raised/lowered on the dowels, but I found that the floor tiles can be cut to size, then peel off the backing, stick the water square onto it, then drill a hole in the center of the tile, glue the mini-clothes pin to the tile, and then put it on the stick.

You can make as many of these, as are needed, for very little money, as each plywood base is only 4" square, and you will be buying a 2'x4' piece of plywood to cut them from. The PDF has instructions, and it has a watery, sandy cover to print, to put on top of the plywood base, to dress it up, along with a water-square for the raise-able platform. I also painted the sides of the plywood bases black, to dress them up for the table: link. By the way, just put the surface ships at maximum height, to allow the subs to float below them, at various depths. Cheers!

We used cold steele's version, but had multiple levels

bloodsweatdice.com/?p=973

Well, a 688-class submarine is 360 feet long, and can operate 'in excess of 800 feet'.

You don't really need a whole lot of depth to the table, call it ~3x to 5x the length of the models you're using.

I had been planning on using the Wings of War multi-peg method for basing my subs. Nothing on the surface, because only targets live up there.

As a side note, basic operating depths:
Surface
PD (Periscope Depth)
Shallow (don't normally stay here, but there is almost always a thermocline between shallow and normal operating depth, so you need to come shallow before coming to PD)
Normal operating depth
deep
really deep
Crush depth.

Technically, crush depth varies with each class, but since I can't tell you how deep that actually is, think of it as a place where you can't stay, but can bounce down to or send torpedoes through.

The deeper you go, the faster you can go without making a lot of noise.

Very exciting. This is worth following.

Stands are easiest, but a sheet of plexiglass with a clear blue tint to it would look cool!

PVC pipe would probably be the cheapest option for the frame.

You'd probably need a couple of supports across the middle to keep the plex from sagging too much. Making that out of some thin, non-bendable material would be best, but might be a challenge, and/or expensive.

Perhaps a couple of vertical, upright, pole supports, painted blue. A couple of metal supports of angle iron, might work too, placed crosswise underneath the plex.

Actually, now that I think about it, there's a thinner material than plex, sold in plastics stores, that'd be perfect, and relatively cheap. It won't support a lot of weight, but with plastic models, as long as your careful, that won't be an issue.

Not sure what it's called, but it's only about 1/16" thick, an probably runs around $20 USD, or less. It's more flexible than plexiglass, and may be sold in 4' x 8' sheets too.

It'll definitely need cross supports about every two feet or so, across the width of the playing surface.

I'd give the latter a try first.

I would do stands and put a piece of water textured plastic under the ship at the top of the stand to remind everyone this is sea level.

jpattern2,

Its OK. I drink it straight from the bottle too.

PVC pipe would probably be the cheapest option for the frame.

Yup, intended to suggest that one myself.

I might also suggest, off the top of my head, that you cover the plexi top piece in "mirror tint". They sell cheap rolls of it for car windows. Set the mirror part on top. Then tint the florescent light panels blue (green, brown, etc.).

Without having tried it, I would say it should create a situation where the "surface players" can't actually see the subs, but the sub can see them.
Assuming the players are seated at the proper heights anyway.

The nice thing about PVC too, is they now have different shaped joiner pieces, so you don't have to do a lot of custom assembly, drilling, cutting, etc.

Its OK. I drink it straight from the bottle too.

Good man! Stout fella! Less cleaning up afterwards.

Ok, here's my idea that I use with Mal Wright's Convoy games, it isn't really 3-D, but gives a quick eyeball look at depth relationships. Each submarine has three models, one painted black for when it is on the surface, one painted white for when it is submerged and undetected, and one painted red for when it is submerged and detected. Submerged depth is noted each turn on the ship log sheet, and sometimes I use depth "tokens" on the table top (little wooden circles that can be found at hobby stores, appropriately marked, one side P for Periscope, other side S for Shallow, etc.).

This works pretty well for me, but it doesn't give the 3-D visualization, except in the imagination. It also avoids getting my fat hands trapped between two sheets of plexiglass that are only a few inches apart if the depth is kept to scale. I usually play at 1-inch = 100 yards (1/3600 scale), with 1/3000 scale models, so 600 feet of depth to scale is two inches.

Piggy-backing on Sgt Slag's ideas, If you really want the visual effect, but are unhandy with tools for the dowel and plywood squares solution, I would keep it simple and still relatively inexpensive by going with aircraft type stands of different heights, or telescoping stands, with the surface ships all being mounted on the tallest sticks at the same height, with the deepest depth the normal flat table top. Submarine depths between deepest and surface could then be different scale heights of intermediate length sticks, remembering that the difference between crush depth and surface for the deepest diving WWII subs is only about three inches at 1-inch = 100 yards. If you play at 1-inch = 200 yards then you've got an inch and a half of wiggle room, and the black, white, red models with tokens might be good enough.

Whatever you decide, be sure to enjoy your games!

I've seen a set-up with a plexi-glass surface supported by a large island in the centre of the table. As an alternative I guess that you could use a number of columns/pillars to support the surface – kind of a plexi-glass table on top of your regular gaming table. From memory the "surface" was about 18" – 24" above the regular table level.

You could use our stands to create small platforms.

The telescoping rods with screw attachments can be used to hold another base as a platform.

The regular rods can be used for this as well.

Put the surface ships at full extension and let the subs vary underneath.

Jonathan Bowen
CorSec Engineering
corseceng.com

Looks fun.
A shower door would work well.

Just downloaded the rules: many thanks. I have always had a notion to do Hunt for Red October.

It surprised me to note the relationship between the length of subs vis a vis their operating depth.

While tempted by the Hobby 1:700 subs, is there really enough space on an average table? Also, what surface vessels are available in that scale?

I was therefore thinking of smaller scale vessels but all the sub models I can find are waterline which wouldn't look right when playing in 3D. Any suggestions?

The disposable glasses are the best idea as they are readily available in various heights: I already use the successfully for aircraft so it should work well in reverse with surface ships having a blue perspex base to mark the surface.

I believe I can help out a lot here. I developed, built and use rules for sub warfare in 3D. I call it ASW3D.
Briefly: The table I built 4 smaller table out of wood. Everything can be bought at a DYI. 2x2 legs are screwed in at the corners of each table. Portability is the key. I played it at Historicon and Fall-In. Probably take it back to H'con next year.
Anyway I can go and on, so I won't. I'm new to this board.
The scale is for 1/700 ships. I use the telescoping magnets for sub depth. Clear plexi glass 8 panels cut in 2x3 foot sections. The wood frame runs along the edges so there's no sagging. Don't use 1/8 plexi, it'll sag, even at these dimension. You must build to with stand nudges. Be happy to share more, need some email addresses so we can communicate off board. If I can figure out how to post a pic, I will, but I just set up my game table for an eastern front engagement so it might not be for a week or two. However sending someone the text of the rules shouldn't be a problem. They are about 12 pages long. I'll keep track of the board. May be more efficient to use the socratic method here. Ask a specific question and get an answer.
Bruce

Navel gaming is usually inexpensive. In this instance, I melted my bank account for the table. Plexi was the killer $300. USD Wood frame for the tables underneath 'bout $80. USD
Miniatures. Subs, surprisingly easy to get a hold.
Tamiya and Sea Wave has an adequate line of destroyers.
It's the convoy that's the killer. There's one liberty ship on the market and they want an arm and your first born for it. So I traced the shape of the hull from a 1/700 USS pensylvania hull, bought some broke out the sander and promptly screwed up the first couple of attempts. But the learning curve kicked in and they turned out pretty good. Used bits from old models for the upper works and wood.
A typical game has 8 merchies, two escorts vs. 2 U-boats.

Eventually add more sophisticated weapons. But this is an early war fight and it's tactical. U Boats get 5 shots, no time for reload. 4 forward 1 aft. Both escorts have sonar, but only one has radar.
Torpedoes are the fast thing in the water, so they game is based off of their speed. Launched at 4 inches 8 inches next phase and 16 the following until the fish runs off the board.
Default setting is night
Sea state is a factor
Scale for a 6x8 table comes to 12 square nautical miles of battle space. The game basically simulates 5-8 minutes of battle, and much happens during that time.
Most sub rules have operational movement which I found irrelevant to the tactical fight. Subs found convoys with frightening regularity, so the focus is on the fight

First, before anything, play a few games of the rules on just a two-dimensional surface.

You'll have a much better idea of what you want to accomplish, and how much effort you want to put into what you are trying to do.

I've got some spare, unbuilt 1/600th LST kits, if anyone wants some of those to stand in for military, or merchant vessels.

Asking $10 USD each.

E-mail me at:

topgungrav AT yahoo )d0t[com

if you are interested in them.

Shipping is at cost.

also, if someone wants to email about ASW3D rules my address
is bruceschaper@hotmail.com put in subject line sub rules or something to that affect.

The easiest way to do this would be to have subs represented in different scales – the biggest (say 1/600) could represent surfaced vessels. Those subs that are submerged could be represented by 1/1200 miniatures. You could also use 1/2400, 1/3000 and 1/6000 to differentiate degrees of depth.

This could also be combined with Sloophmsstarling's idea of different colours for detected and undetected subs.

Another way is to use Mal's idea of colored water markers underneath the subs for depth, with progressively darker ones to represent deeper water, e.g. light blue to very dark blue, and then black for the deepest depth.

Perhaps numbered too, to aid anyone that might be colorblind.