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"New Submarine Ruleset" Topic


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1,601 hits since 10 Oct 2012
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Ensign Inactive Member10 Oct 2012 6:24 a.m. PST

A clubmember has gone off on one aain and started to get 1/700th scale subs and ships (ie targets) and has written some rules for modern sub combet which can be found here….

snapshotmodernsub.webs.com

Any feedback would be gratefully received.

Personal logo MrHarold Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Oct 2012 7:26 a.m. PST

Very cool.. rules downloaded!

Rev Zoom Inactive Member10 Oct 2012 9:04 a.m. PST

This looks good – will definitely give it a try.

Lion in the Stars10 Oct 2012 10:31 a.m. PST

Been looking for a good set of submarine warfare rules for a long time. I'll have to give these a try.

Fonthill Hoser10 Oct 2012 11:04 a.m. PST

The photo used on the Akula datacards looks more like a Typhoon.

Hoser

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP10 Oct 2012 12:55 p.m. PST

Very cool. I will give them a try. I'm always looking for good modern naval rules.

Just as an aside, I don't want to seem harsh, but you should be aware that there is a fairly well known set of GDW rules called Snapshot that has been around for decades. It's old, yes, but still being sold. Of course that ruleset is scifi, so no real chance of it being confused for your rules, but I just thought you should be aware as they are still selling it…

link

Rev Zoom Inactive Member10 Oct 2012 5:31 p.m. PST

Where can I find the Turn Charts? Thanks.

Rev Zoom Inactive Member10 Oct 2012 5:33 p.m. PST

GDW also made a boardgame called SSN for modern submarine action. It missed by a long shot. Or, should I say, by a snapshot.


Oh, stop groaning.

daveshoe10 Oct 2012 9:20 p.m. PST

The rules look interesting. The biggest issue with sub games is keeping the side that has been detected from acting like they've been detected. Your passive sonar detection is different than anything I've seen before.

I had started on my own set some time back (I was trying to put them in the same scale as David Manley's Bulldogs Away!), but only a few people seemed interested and I didn't get many comments.

Hopefully you will get some good feedback.

Dave

Ensign Inactive Member11 Oct 2012 2:02 a.m. PST

Robs working away at the moment, I will post a pdf to the clubs website sometime today with the circles.

Rev Zoom Inactive Member11 Oct 2012 3:41 p.m. PST

Thanks, I will look for it.

HobbitHoghton Inactive Member15 Oct 2012 8:55 a.m. PST

Look forward to reading this as I've been kicking around some ideas for a similar game (but not actually got around to doing anything). I was thinking of something not unlike most fighter combat games and mounting the subs so that they could be positioned at different depths (rather than heights for 'planes).

And I like GDW's Snapshot too!!

HobbitHoghton Inactive Member16 Oct 2012 2:38 a.m. PST

Just had a read and it looks very much like what I had in mind. Look forward to playing this – thank you for saving me a big job!!!

Royal Marine17 Oct 2012 9:26 a.m. PST

Submarine rule 1: never reload your tubes if your outer firing tube doors are still open.

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP19 Oct 2012 6:05 a.m. PST

Your rules look really good and appear to be the type that would go over well at our club. It has sparked some interest in the period. Here's a link to a discussion I've started about some help I'm looking for in getting your game set up.

TMP link

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP19 Oct 2012 6:54 a.m. PST

Can you tell me what you used for your torpedoes? I can't seem to find any.

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member20 Oct 2012 3:57 a.m. PST

This is how a friend at our club made the torpedoes for the playtesting as I couldn't find any either.
The main part of the torpedo is a piece of bamboo skewer cut off about 1/16th" of the pointed end measure to length cut off and sand to the profile of the front end, some are round (Russian) others have a flat end. For the propellers, cut a thin section of electrical insulation, (I used a piece of earth wire) and for the fins / protection sleeve a piece of plastic straw which was approximately the same diameter as the insulation. the torpedo is mounted on a piece of 2mm. MDF supported by a piece of fine piano wire. I did start with similar thoughts but a combination of impatience a transportation problems led me to afixed 'tabletop' approach.

 Just a few things to mention – I've used painted old CDs to indicate sonarbuoys, although the diameter is only 5" (and so about half the actual 1nm to scale) as the subs are far bigger than the ground scale it evens out.  Also I'm working on some advanced rules for different sonarbuoys, DICASS, DIFAR etc as they differ in range and sophistication.
Dan     Fremont, California

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member20 Oct 2012 3:58 a.m. PST

Sorry – ignore the Dan Fremont bit at the end – doing this from a phone and editing is tricky

Rob

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member20 Oct 2012 5:38 a.m. PST

I have also added 2 more data cards – an O H Perry (as I finally found one on ebay) and a corrected Akula with the right picture. In my defence the Russian designation for an Akula is Typhoon so I blame wikipedia and my eyesight for not checking.
Rob

David Manley29 Oct 2012 5:57 a.m. PST

Just spotted this. I too had a go at some sub vs sub rules around about the same time that Dave S did, as I had a pile of 1/700 models. Like Dave's they never went anywhere. When I get to a PC that works properly I'll take a look at these – they sound ideal :)

Lion in the Stars29 Oct 2012 9:43 a.m. PST

Submarine rule 1: never reload your tubes if your outer firing tube doors are still open.
Our designers are smarter than that. It's physically impossible to open the outer doors if the inner doors are open, and vice versa. Mechanical interlocks are your friends.

David Manley29 Oct 2012 12:11 p.m. PST

Just a thought – you might want to make large double hulled Russian submarines more survivable than single hulled Western boats. Say 4 or more (or even 5 for the really big ones) to breach the pressure hull. And apply more mods for small lightweights against the same targets.

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2012 8:05 a.m. PST

Hello David, In the Damage example section the rules state:
"Even though the Osacr has a double hull and requires a roll of 4 under …" so it would seem the rules author had the same good idea that you did but just didn't spell it out as plainly as you have.

I've played a couple of games and its amazing how much that double hull can assist that particular sub driver.

Another "minor" modification is that a second proximity hit on a sub is destroyed on a roll of 1-8 on a d10 with a double hull getting a +1 to the roll. A third proximity hit is an automatic kill. There was no logic or technical reasoning for this other than to give a player detected early a bit of hope.

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP10 Nov 2012 7:24 a.m. PST

This past Thursday we played Snap Shot for the first time at the club and we actually got in two games. The first game was just meant as a training class for the two sub commanders who had never played before. It ended up as a bit of a series of frantic torpedo launches after a long range passive detection by an Ohio class boomer of his opposing Los Angeles class attack sub (we just wanted to try something simple). (It was just a familiarity game so ignore that a LA went up against and Ohio) The Los Angeles was hit and sunk by the first pair of torpedoes fired by the Ohio. He didn't deploy any counter measures and was trying to close the gap by racing full flank towards his opponent. (The player likes cavalry charges which don't work in sub combat) The boomer was able to avoid the first pair of torpedoes with countermeasures and we ended the game before the next round or torpedoes came in range.

In the second game, we pitted an Akula against an Ohio class boomer. We used random placement to determine starting positions and neither side knew where their opponent was going to be placed on the board before they plotted out their first 8 turns worth of orders. They actually started within 12 inches of each other with the Ohio being at Very Deep and the Akula being at Deep. The Ohio, creeping along at a very slow crawl, kept a fairly constant passive detection going on the Akula but couldn't get a firing solution. The noisy Russian couldn't seem to find his back side with both hands and was passing over top of the Ohio while doing lazy left hand circles. The Ohio finally got a firing solution and put two fish in the water at the Akula. The Akula skipper hit the gas pedal and spun the helm to the starboard while firing off a snap shot down the line of the incoming torpedoes and deploying countermeasures. One of the Mk48 Torpedoes hit the Akula with a proximity hit damaging the Akula's weapon systems. The second Mk48 was fooled by the countermeasures. The boomer in the meantime had an incoming snapshot from the Soviet sub to deal with. The Boomer skipper deployed counter measures but didn't change course or speed and paid for it by taking two hits from the Akula's snapshot. Both were proximity hits but the boomer was still destroyed. The Akula skipper got lucky and lived. Firing torpedoes close in on your enemy gets to be a bit hairy as you only get one chance to (if that) to react.

Overall impression of the game was good but I'm still looking to make some tweaks to it. The sonar worked well actually and the to hit should use a d10 as opposed to a d6 since the rules don't spell it out. We added an optional pre-plotted movement rule which enables the subs to be placed on the table as opposed to hidden. If a sub has not detected anything then the player has to plot out his moves 8 turns in advance. If the player has made a detection then he can plot for the next turn. We found it works nicely. I personally think they make for a nice playable game that gives the feel of submarine warfare with out going into the complexity of Harpoon (which I have).

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 5:30 a.m. PST

Have added some additional data cards for Alfa, Trafalgar and Seawolf – see link to additional data cards + some info on designing your own data cards – see link on blog page. Oh – and an.updated version of the rules with some extras on preplotted movement and damage.
Rob

Daniel16 Nov 2012 11:51 a.m. PST

Please forgive my tackiness in asking, but is there any possibility of getting the V2 rules in PDF format? I like the system but my stone age location allows only limited file types and PDF runs.

Many thanks…

Ensign Inactive Member17 Nov 2012 7:24 a.m. PST

I converted them yesterday, so might be up now.

Daniel17 Nov 2012 5:56 p.m. PST

Not up yet but I'll keep checking. Much appreciated.

Lion in the Stars17 Nov 2012 6:33 p.m. PST

Firing torpedoes close in on your enemy gets to be a bit hairy as you only get one chance to (if that) to react.
The rules have that right.

Get close and knife the dude in the back. If you're a real bastard, you want to be so close that the target cannot help but to turn into one torp… give him no chance to turn far enough to get a snapshot back at you.

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member18 Nov 2012 2:50 a.m. PST

Have uploaded pdfs of the rules and extra data cards – sorry for the delay
Rob

Estarriol Inactive Member18 Nov 2012 2:27 p.m. PST

I can't get the turn templates to download… Could you give me diameters for them and i'll make my own? thanks.

Weredoomed2003 Inactive Member19 Nov 2012 7:37 a.m. PST

The turning circles are 14cm, 11cm and 8cm diameter
Regards

Rob

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