"Marmon-Herrington Armoured Car in Normandy 1944?" Topic

Found the following reference;

29th Armoured Brigade HQ, 11th AD, attached 1 air support signals unit, a Royal signal corp operator and an air liaison officer, an experienced pilot who talked the pilot's 'language'. Operating from a visual control post, a converted 'turretless' marmon-herrington armoured car. The ALO was wounded early on June 18th (Goodwood), and thus air support was not as effective as planned.

From Over the Battlefield, Operation Goodwood, Appendix VI, 11th AD TOE for Operation Goodwood.

Can anyone confirm such a vehicle as I would love to model it!

Certainly could be – the South Africans built about 5,000 of them and they were used by British and other Commonwealth forces in addition to the South Africans

This might be, thought a MkIVf – the Brits ordered 1,200 of them in 1943 – which was quite a different design than the Mk I – IIIs used in the Western Desert

There aren't any mentioned here link , but then he doesn't mention RAF armoured/scout cars at all, of which there were hundreds, in the hands of the RAF Regiment and FACs/ALOs.

Although I've no direct evidence of Marmon-Herringtons being present in Normandy, it's certainly within the realms of possibility. Obsolete vehicles such as the Morris LRC, Beaverette and Otter LRC found their way to Normandy in the hands of the RAF Regiment, Royal Engineers, Royal Canadian Engineers and GHQ Liaison units.

Alternatively, it might simply be a case of mis-identification, which is very common in eyewitness accounts.

Interestingly the eye-witness accounts mention an M5 and a Sherman with 29th AB as FAC 'rides'.

I did wonder if it was a Humber LRC, that the RAF regiment used, that could be mistaken for a Marmon-Herrington.

FACs did sometimes ride in tanks – each Armoured Regt HQ had two tanks with an extra radio that could be used as OP tanks for FOOs or FACs.

In the latter part of the North African Campaign there are examples of FACs riding with armoured Squadron Commanders – presumably in the co-driver's seat?

Thanks Mark, as always, very useful info.

I suspect we will go with the Humber LRC as an option for the FAC to ride in…

The Humber LRC certainly did look quite a bit like the old Marmon-Herrington and the RAF certainly used heaps of them – mainly with the RAF Regt, but FACs/ALOs also used them.

link

I read (somewhere-will check)that Goodwood (18/7/44,rather late in the day) was the first outing for the VCP system and that the 'controller' (pilot?) was wounded whilst setting up the large array needed to speak to the cab-rank aircraft.

I think that might mean for a particular system. ALOs had been riding around in AFVs since 1942. The RAF Air Power Review had a superb article on how the system was organised from El Alamein onwards in North Africa. I'll try to dig it out – it's here somewhere. However, in those days close air support was normally performed by 18 medium bombers (typically Bostons, Marylands or Baltimores) performing a pattern-bombing attack on the indicated target. This was effective, but slow to respond to the call. In 1943 they moved on to 'cab-ranked' fighter-bombers.

The way I read it the VCP system was the only one where the ground observer spoke directly to the pilots and Goodwood was the first time it was tried out.

An interesting looking vehicle although obsolete even during the Western Desert campaigns. IMHO, not unlikely being used in such a observation roll by the RAF and chums but would have to avoid any combat.

Probably a Mk IV, the South Africans used them instead of British ones in Italy, and quite a few Commonwealth formations also used them from 1943 on. Easily possible especially if units transferred from Med to Normandy

The MkIV was definitely not obsolete by WW 2 standards. I believe the last ones in Greek and Jordanian service were retired in the 1990s

A few people make them in 20 mm but they are not cheap.

Did anyone actually use the Marmon Herrington MKIV in action in WWII? My reading is that the South African 6th Armoured Division's Armoured Recce Regiment used Shermans and Stuarts. The only picture I've seen of a SA armoured car in Italy was an M8 Greyhound.

"Did anyone actually use the Marmon Herrington MKIV in action in WWII? My reading is that the South African 6th Armoured Division's Armoured Recce Regiment used Shermans and Stuarts"

They used them instead of the British armoured cars in the 6th SA Armoured Division. They were apparently also sent to the Far East and were used by the Arab Legion.

When they operated with the US 5th army they "inherited" a few M8's I believe.

Even the Germans used Marmon-Herringtons, usually de-turretted. The KNIL had them in Java, and I'm sure the Japanese made use of them after the surrender of Dutch forces!

There was an earlier thread on Marmon-Herrington Mk IVs here:

TMP link

Re the 6th South African Armoured Division – they had an Armoured Car Regiment (equipped with armoured cars) as well as an Armoured Recce Regiment (equipped with a 50/50 mix of Shermans and Stuarts). The South African Armoured Car Regiment was most likely equipped with M-H Mk IV/IVF, but definitive proof seems remarkably hard to come by.

It's always amazed me how many light recce vehicles the British Empire built, like the 5000 South African Marmon Herringtons. Who used them all?

Freecloud,

The M8 Greyhound was supplied under Lend-Lease (the British were after all, the ones who named it 'Greyhound'). At least three British regiments in Italy received them, as well as two Indian regiments. They also appeared in very small numbers in NW Europe (usually in high-level Tac HQs).

Spontoon,

Yes, the Dutch Marmon-Herringtons ended up in Japanese hands, as did those belonging to the Indian and British recce regiments in Singapore. A lot of the latter ended up in the hands of the Indian National Army.

I may be mistaken but I can't see any armoured car regiment attached to the 6th SA Division on the available lists. I'm fairly certain from reading the division's history that the recce regiment (Natal Mounted Rifles- NMR) only had tanks. In fact, they ran short of infantry and converted the NMR to a mixed NMR/South African Air Force infantry battalion. Based on this, I'm not convinced that Marmon Herrington MkIVs ever saw any action in Italy but would like to hear evidence to the contrary.

Trockle,

I may be mistaken, but I thought they'd taken one such regiment to Italy as Corps Troops, but like the British armoured car regiments, it ended up as armoured division recce in the latter part of 1944.

I agree though- I've never seen evidence for Mk IVs seeing any action in WW2, despite the large numbers produced.

Just had another thought – 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry, which was the Armoured Recce Regiment for the British 6th Armoured Division in Italy, converted in April 1945 from Shermans/Stuarts to Greyhounds. Might it be the case that the SA Armoured Recce also converted to armoured cars at that time? This is just idle speculation.

Aha, I think I know where I went wrong – the Natal Mounted Rifles and the South African Air Force Armoured Car Regiment were amalgamated to become the divisional armoured recce regiment. I thought the two were separate, with the SAAF Regt remaining as armoured cars.

Interestingly, they were re-equipped with Marmon-Herrington IVF upon their return to SA.

I should have done more checking before posting. These links state that they never saw active service in WW2 but were used for internal security.

link

link

This article states that they were used but I'm dubious.

link

I also wonder if the air liaison officer might not have been using a Humber Light Reconnaissance Car? It's what the RAF Regiment used in NW Europe and has some similarity to a (turretless?) Marmon Herrington Mk II

Yes, as mentioned above, they were very commonly used by the RAF and the RAF Museum at Hendon even has one.

I've just bought a copy of "Marmon Herrington, A History of the South African Reconnaissance Car" by William Marshall. It contains a photo of a destroyed British Mk III in Sicily, that belonged to the 5th Recce Regt., 5th British Inf. Div. The caption adds that this was probably the final use of any South African Reconnaissance Cars in Europe during WWII.

I note that Marshall uses the word 'probably'.

I seem to remember that 56 Recce Regt used them for a bit longer, replacing them with Greyhounds in July 1944.