"Matmon Herringtons" Topic

…shouldf read Marmon of course, but I don't know how to edit headings

Trying to locate Mk IVs (which were made in larger numbers than all the earlier Mk II desert ones, or the 8 wheelers) and served in some armies up to to the 1990's:

link

But the only one I've found so far is that above at 22 Euros!

Any others that people know about?

link

…at the foot of the page. No indication as to its price though. You have to ask – and we all know what that means!

…it means £17.00 GBP Nowe, how accurate do I want my 6th SA Armoured to be :(

in 15mm or 1/100 I only know Battlefront, and QVC does a Morris 9 that could probably be modified in some way.

Oddly, the British armoured car situation in EW/MW is not very good, only a few manufacturors.

Do you have any info on their employment by front-line units during WW2? I'm guessing that the 6th South African Armoured Division recce used them, but I've never read anything specific. I've certainly never found Mk IVs in any other Commonwealth regiments during WW2.

Any and all info gratefully received.

I second HC's comments re mid-war armoured cars – I'd love some Morris LRCs (specifically for Polish Engineer Recce in Normandy), but I doubt anyone will ever make one in 15mm.

@Mark,I read an off the cuff comment that a lot were used in Asia, and the Japanese loved them!

They found their way into quite a few Mediterranean armies incl Israel, and I doubt they all came from 6th SA who (probably – A/C are *made* for S African terrain) took theirs home

Hmmm, I'm disappoingly certain that the ones in Asia were early Marmon-Herringtons, armed with MGs and ATRs. 18 Recce Regiment and 3rd Indian Cavalry Regiment left a pile of them in Singapore that were then picked up by the Japs and the INA.

Alas, there's also no trace of their use in the Burma-China-India Theatre: The Indian Armoured Corps History records that the earlier Rolls Royce and Crossley-Chevrolet India Pattern armoured cars were generally replaced by Dingos, Daimler Armoured Cars, Humber Armoured Cars and India Pattern Wheeled Carriers, with some Canadian Fox Armoured Cars in the mix.

However, there's always the possibility that they were used in the Indian formations sent to Iraq, Iran and/or Palestine – information is very scant from that theatre.

Wellthe S Africans made 5,000odd MK IVs,far more thanthe MkIIs inth desert,and hey certainly didn't use them all in just 1 armoured division.

I've got to disagree with your figures, sorry. The figure of 5,000 refers to all marks of Marmon-Herrington armoured car. 2,000 Mk IVs were built. There was also an order of 1,200 Mk IVF, but I don't know how many of those were completed. So no more than 3,200 Mk IV/IVFs in total were built. However, that's still a very large number of vehicles, so god alone knows where they all went.

That's what's always puzzled me. However, those sort of production figures aren't all that unusual and it wasn't unusual for high production runs to simply disappear into storage, training units and anciliary theatres. 8,000 Valentines were built, but only a small fraction of those were used by the British Army. Of 177 Tetrarchs built, no more than 20 were ever operational at any one time. Of 2,200 Morris LRCs built, barely any made it into front-line recce regiments as originally envisioned – the vast majority went to training, security' liaison and engineering units, as well as into storage. Of 830 M22 Locusts built, only eight were used operationally. Of 1,771 Covenanters built, not one saw combat. Of 629 AEC Armoured Cars built, only a handful were issued to front-line units. It's a pretty dismal record.

Mk IVs were definitely not used operationally in the Far East. As mentioned, I have good information on types used out there and I'm certain the quote refers to earlier marks, which the Japs captured two regiments' worth of. There is also good information available for types used by the British Army in Italy and M-H Mk IVs don't apppear on the list.

Sorry,you're right re 3,200 – teach me to write from memory. I wouldn't be surprised if we found that the 2000 Mk IV order was "replaced by" the 1,200 Mk IVF some time intoproduction rather thanan extra – but even so, even 2,000 of the things are a lot to hide! I don't think the S Africans stockpiled them or you would've seen them all over SA armies into the 70's (we know they were very long-lasting – look at Greece).

So your hypothesis re other Commonwealth units may be true,or I wonder if US formations in the 5th army used them?

That's an interesting hypothesis and does seem likely. Off the top of my head, the IVF was a simplified design, utilising a Ford truck chassis, wasn't it?

I'd put money on a load of them being in the Middle East. That would explain why heaps of them ended up in Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus and Turkey after the war. However, given its status as a 'backwater' theatre, there is precious little written about who had what out there.

Re the US Army: I've got to say that would be extremely unlikely. The Americans were very keen on standardisation and not messing up their logistical chain with supplies for non-standard equipment.

There are some other possible candidates – the Polish recce regiments in Italy. I've absolutely no idea what they had. I've got good figures for the British, New Zealanders, Canadians and Indian recce in Italy, but nothing at all on the Polish recce.

Aside from BF, QRF, OG/Command Decision, and Battle Honours/Old Glory 15s, who even makes British ACs? Is the Morris 9 as similar to the M-Hs as it seems?

There was SDD as well – they made some really obscure stuff, but the new owners (Stronghold) seem to be defunct.

The Morris CS9 was superficially similar to the early marks of Marmon-Herrington (and Humber LRC), but there were some distinct differences:

Morris CS9: picture

Early Marmon-Herrington: picture

The Marmon-Herrington Mk IV was a totally different beast: link

Found this from here:

link

Mark IV

These were the most successful of all the marks and were produced in the most numbers. These vehicles were employed by the old South African Union Defence Force and after1962, by the newly created South African Defence Force until the early 1970's when most were sold as scrap or became gate guards. There are still many derelicts to be found in South Africa. I have recently seen one advertised for the equivalent of US$2000.

These cars were a total redesign dispensing with the truck chassis and now incorporating a monocoque reinforced chassis of South African design. The engine was still a Ford flathead V-8 and the gearbox and the final drive still built by MH. However, the engine had now been relocated to rear of vehicle. The vehicle did not resemble any of it's forbearers in appearance and for the first time mounted an adequate main armament in the form of a 2 Pounder; and in instances where available a 4 Pounder as standard. Secondary armament was now changed from the Vickers .303 to a Browning .30 cal. due to the Browning being a new, more numerous and far superior weapon to the Vickers. In fact, so many more Browning .30 cal mg's were being made available to British and Commonwealth Forces that it had also been adopted as their standard heavy HMG as well. In instances where production outstripped supply of 2 and 4 pounders a .50 cal Browning would then be mounted as main armament.

These cars won themselves a legendary reputation during the latter part of the Desert War and during the Italian Campaign, which was the only European Theatre that the South African Union Defence Force was actively involved. The vehicle had a combat weight of 6755 kg or 6.7 tonnes, making it the heaviest MH in operation. Top speed was now 84 km/hour and range 350 km. Production ran from July 1942 until April of 1944, which saw 2116 units produced.

From elsewhere in teh same article:

…..the Mark 4 was issued in large numbers to the Arab Legion.

(I've never heard of a 4 pounder….)

I've never heard of the Arab Legion…

Seems like the Canadians and Free French also used them (judging by examples in their military museums).

PDF link

In other words I get the impression it was fairly commonly issued A/C in the Med, and I am guessing that historians have just "assumed" that Daimlers and Humbers were issued when in fact they were M-H Mk IVs.

I also don't think it was replaced as obsolete, as the records say the S Africans loved theirs and they lasted into the 90's in many armies.

There is a site dedicated to Marmon-Herrington Military Vehicles:

marmon-herrington.webs.com

Freecloud,

I think that's a rather large assumption to make. I've researched the British, Indian, Canadian and New Zealand Armoured Car, Recce & Divisional Cavalry regiments in Italy in some detail and I've never found a single Marmon-Herrington Mk IV mentioned in documents, strength returns, unit histories or memoirs, or shown in photos. As mentioned above, I've not looked in any real detail at Polish or South African Recce & Armoured Car Regts.

Regimental histories tend to make a big deal of new types, such as when 56 Recce Regt, 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry and some others received M8 Greyhounds, so you'd expect to find some evidence.

Thanks for the link Druzhina – Hanno Spoelstra provides some detail to production figures in there, but no information on who (if anyone) used them in combat. He puts production at 936 Mk IV and 1,180 Mk IVF. Only 310 of the Mk IV had 2pdr – the remaining Mk IV had MG only. All Mk IVF had 2pdr.

Done some digging – the four Polish armoured car regiments were equipped with Staghound, like the Canadians. I've not found a detailed orbat for South African Armoured Car Regts in Italy.

Ah…so we are back to wondering who had those 2,000 odd MkIVs – there is no way the SA 6th Armoured got through them all.

My hypothesis is that many units in the "good A/C terrain" Mid East had them (we know Arab Legion did), Free French had them, and I'd place money on Balkan forces (Greece…) and the Canadians (based on one popping up in their military museum.)

I am wondering if other units in the US 5th Army (than the 6th SA A/D) may have used them too, it was a very polyglot force.

On the gameboard it "counts as" any other 37mm/2pdr toting A/C anyway.