"Where should Historicon be held in the future?" Topic

demiurgex,

Is this just a rumor or do you know it for a fact? For a time I was involved with Civil Rights and discrimination.

In any event the Society could use the advice of a good tax lawyer regarding VA law.

Bob Coggins

thomalley,

Thanks for your help. I'm only sorry you're not still managing an HMGS convention. We could use you.

As an aside I would love to attend the conventions in Williamsburg. They sound like fun and I love the area.

Bob Coggins

Train goes from Baltimore to Williamsburg. And the cab ride is only a few minute, though I'm sure quite of few people would offer you a ride. My wife came down from DC last year via the train.

Ratisbon/Bob,

There's a link to the source, which is the Lancaster Online media site. Checking out that, its run by the Intelligencer Journal, which is the largest local circulation newspaper in Lancaster County, and the oldest continuous newspaper in the United States. I'd say its likely a reputable source.

Check here;
link

And here's the background on the Newspaper and site at wiki:
link

demiurgex,

Thanks. I'm not surprised the old crew which had been with the hotel for years was long gone.

Sad.

Bob Coggins

The results of this poll surprised me a little considering the results from the reasons for not attending poll.

Here are the responses ordered by totals:
A. Stay at the FEC in Fredericksburg = 29
B. Move back to the Host in Lancaster = 20
D. Move to a new location = 18
E. Don't care = 4
C. Move back to the VFCC in Valley Forge = 3

The number of people answering D is actually more than I am reporting but when counting the numbers I discounted some responses that either didn't seem serious or venue suggestions were outside of the US.

Of those answering D the suggestions of where to move the convention broke down by geographic location like this: Northeast = 7; West of Mississippi = 5; Midwest = 2; Southeast = 1; Move between locations in mid-Atlantic region = 1; Hold the three HMGS conventions in three different locations = 1; No location given = 1.

Just realized I forgot to count myself so A should be 30 instead.

So, 41 are in favor of a location other than Fredericksburg. That would be a majority by my count.

A

Sorry I've missed the fun while visiting Arkansas. But I'll pop in for bit.

Ed, HMGS EAST is a descriptive term. The lawyers, Mike Montemarano's "Damnyankee Law Firm" which collected tens of thousands of dollars to dramatically lose a slightly larger amount to the BCC asked that it be called HMGS Inc. because that is how the corporation is chartered. It is still centered on the mid-atlantic coast, as it was when Wally's Basement served as a meeting place for participants from Massachussetts to North Carolina.

Believe it or not, it still has a regional quality.

COLDWARS has not been the "Cash Cow" at least since 1997. Very early on (1992-1995) it benefitted from lower costs, and the HOST pretended not to want us in the summer (they wouldn't let us use the barn because we weren't playing tennis.)

From 1992 through 1994 HISTORICON was economically marginal because Bob Coggins and Dick Sossi, in response to a whining dealer, imported a portable air conditioner which cost most of what was taken in from dealers area.

In those days we lacked overpaid bean counters, management consultants who knew little or nothing about our business, lawyers, lawsuits, and other luxuries, so we seemed to be making money hand over fist-most, indeed from COLDWARS.

In 2009 COLDWARS was nearly revenue neutral.

The following year at COLDWARS the Congress had been bulldozed and the end of the parking lot misappropriated, and COLDWARS, showed somewhat more positive cash flow, but parking was tight.

As for outgrowing the HOST, the drumbeat to move to THE NEXT LEVEL was mounted before 2003, but the HOST wasn't crowded. However, due to our low vendor prices and a decent economy we had a backlog of vendors. That has evaporated even before the outrageous $400 USD booth drove our charges up to the level of ORIGINS.

In 2005 after the first VFCC move had been shouted down as too expensive I sent a photo essay to the BORG at the time showing the Distlefink over half empty in prime time.

Massive advertising drove attendance back up to the 1998 levels by 2008 and it has declined steadily since. Seemingly to make sure 2012 did not change this trend, only 36% of the advertising budget was applied to HISTORICON 2012.

Rumor has it that, even though we were going to a new location, the BORG ordered reduced advertising as part of their "Chicken Little" financial management approach, which also included elimination of seminar speakers perks, and possibly reduced staffing (since some people who arrived at meal time could find no one to deal with.)

Unfortunately no known location north of the Mason Dixon Line seems to be suitable for HISTORICON. The HOST has a little less effective space, and a lot less parking than it did when we were last there for HISTORICON.

As for the BCC, it is big. But it is not well suited for our kind of convention. It reeks of high prices, pay parking, and general inconvenience. But it was possible to hold a convention there. ATLANTICON ran two ORIGINS there, and before they kicked the convention scene off to ROGUE TRADERS, Games Workshop held game days there. Having contracted for it, holding 2010 there would certainly have lost less money than breaking the contract, not even counting the outrageous fees charged us by Mike's "Damnyankee Law Firm."

My first reaction to the "NEXT LEVEL" movement was to stay at the HOST. But HISTORICON has grown since, and the HOST not only hasn't grown, it is in worse shape and short of parking.

Those who are pre-occuppied with the higher cost of the FEC should keep in mind that while the HOST discounts (less all the time) for sleeping rooms, the FEC does not, but essentially the increased "commissions" at this HISTORICON reflect kickbacks from the attached hotels to offset the lack of room nights at the FEC.

One of these days we may get an actual treasurer's report on it. For the past year or so the BORG has kept secret its BOD Meeting Minutes in defiance of the laws governing not-for-profit corporations (or so I'm told.) But Kelley does post fiscal reports from time to time.

Pat Condray

"So 41 are in favor of a location other than Fredericksburg. That would be a majority by my count."

You do realize that when someone says "Fiji would be nice" or a guy from Boston says "I vote to move to Boston because it's close to me" etc, etc, that those sarcastic votes are counted as D, or other location, don't you?

The convention ended over a month ago and people are still wishing it either goes back to the Host or somewhere else rather than the FEC.

From all accounts, it looks like it's going to be held at the FEC in 2013, so my suggestion is get used to the idea.

And if you don't like that location, then don't go, it's really that simple.

Beyond 2013 is anyones guess.

The more I read about the issues with the Host (behind on taxes, AC that is on its last, last, last leg, telling certain groups to go elsewhere when in fact there is room at the inn), my thought is "Oh yeah, I want to hitch the HMGS wagon to that jewel of a location."……………..

So, 41 are in favor of a location other than Fredericksburg. That would be a majority by my count.

And looking at the same numbers which yield that
result, it would appear that 50 want a location other
than the Lancaster Host ? A larger majority ?

Still, the fact remains that this entirely pointless discussion and pointless poll has resulted in an unscientific survey result that proves absolutely nothing and is a total waste of time and effort.

… so my suggestion is get used to the idea.

I couldn't care less. Not too keen on Historicon anyway. Attended almost every H-Con since its inception oh so many years ago and in recent years it seems to be, well … rather blah.

Same vendors, same stuff. Same games. Eh.

And looking at the same numbers which yield that
result, it would appear that 50 want a location other
than the Lancaster Host ? A larger majority ?

And this pointless number means what exactly?

Carry on.

While this is certainly not a scientific poll it is still somewhat informative. I was a bit surprised that the number one answer ended up being to stay at the FEC after tallying the results from the reasons for not attending poll. The number one answer in that poll was that the convention was too far away/travel time too long. While many of those answering A (too far away/travel time too long) in that poll were from points west of the Mississippi the majority were from the Northeast. This led me to believe that the majority of people responding to this poll would vote for moving back to the Host, VFCC, or some other Northeastern location. This was not the case.

"So, 41 are in favor of a location other than Fredericksburg. That would be a majority by my count."

Another way to look at these numbers would be this. With my and foxfoxfox's votes counted the total for A (FEC) is now 31. The total amount of votes for B (Host), C (VFCC), and those voting D that suggested locations in the Northeast is 30. The 11 remaining D votes are locations spread across the U.S. from Lost Angeles to "move it around a bit in the area between Lancaster and F'burg to various historically significant sites."

"You do realize that when someone says "Fiji would be nice" or a guy from Boston says "I vote to move to Boston because it's close to me" etc, etc, that those sarcastic votes are counted as D, or other location, don't you?"

I tried to discount the obvious sarcastic "move it to my backyard" and "Fiji would be nice" votes in my tally but some of the remaining votes would still fit into these categories.

I found this quote from an earlier discussion rather amusing: "Eureka! I got it! Let's hold the next Historicon under a circus tent in a state park exactly equidistant between Boston and Charleston. Seems somehow appropriate. Per google map that would put it in Prince William Forest State Park, just outside Quantico, Va. Or about 8 miles North of Fredericksburg."

So I got out a map and a ruler and measured between Bangor, Maine and Miami, Florida. The midpoint between these two cities would be the Outer Banks of North Carolina. I may have to change my vote to the Outer Banks if there is a suitable convention center on the islands.

OOH, I getting ready to move to the NC Outer Banks. If I can just get this house sold.

if there is a suitable convention center on the islands.

Probably not. There is this: link

I wonder if they could fit some gaming tables in there…?

A

A I selfishly live only 5 miles from there.

As snurl1's profile says he lives in Lancaster I'm assuming he meant to answer B instead of A.

The outer banks are great for SCUBA Diving but abysmal for miniature gaming.

HISTORYCON Australia, is running its first national event march 9th and 10th 2013.

TMP link

We are drawing on government money, from all levels, and corporate sponsorship. Hasn't anyone thought to do that for HISTORICON USA?????? Its costing many thousands of dollars for our event, and we dont have more than a couple of hundred bucks in our entire organisation. But by negotiation with three levels of government, tourism, corporate sponsorship etc we have been able to not only put the thing on, but offer attendees assistance with shipping and transport costs in bringing displays and equipment. Then accommodation and food deals etc subsidised by corporate sponsorship.

Hasn't anyone thought to do that???
We are committed to a three year deal, and it has not been all that difficult to negotiate. The hardest part has been the paperwork.

Isn't there any State in the US that could offer to sponsor the thing and have it linked in with them???

Its all in the way you sell it. The economic returns to a region from getting a whole heap of people to come to a central place for a two day event (in our case) is enough to have the business community near the event turning cartwheels with delight. If you put 6,450 people into a town the return for most shops and etc will be 246% higher than their normal intake, based on figures here. That is a hell of an incentive to businesses to get the event near them.

Hasnt ANYONE tapped into that sort of thing?

Surely in the mighty USA there must be access to government grants, state sponsorships and corporate backers to put the event in a convenient place and give financial and location stability! And if it is out there and it hasn't been applied for, then why not? If you can put the increase in trade to a local better business community the worst they can say is 'no'and you then try a business community with more vision. Historicon USA is a saleable product. Surely someone has realised that.

Perhaps American state and Federal governments dont have funds for that sort of promotion, but I would be surprised if not! And it doesnt hurt to ask! Particularly if it gives the politicians a chance for plenty of 'Photo Call', to win brownie points with the business community in their electorate, and boast how clever they were for negotiating to get the event into their area.

Dear Mal

You are of course joking right?

State and government money for wargames? For sponoring private clubs?

Corporate backers- snicker, snicker- games workshop won't even do that unless you mortgage your first born to them.

Corporate backers??? Yah! Bank America sponsors Historicon, Admission is $1,000 USD a person. You get an empty hall you still have to pay for, bring your own food and games, and pay parking.

Hi, Mal

We have an (almost) brand-spanking new convention center
in Raleigh (Sate capitol city).

Far from providing funding or sponsoring ANY sort of
event, the local and state governments charge BIG bucks
to rent the facilty, provide permits, provide access to
insurance, rent tables/chairs and charge access fees
for area parking.

Nice, eh ?

Well…I am surprised. HISTORICON would be to me, a very saleable event. I'm continually astonished at the talk on here of you blokes running around like poor cousins working out how much you are going to pay others for the priviledge of spending your money with them!!!!

I am now just coming back on line after nearly a week off with a virus, but in my absence things have continued to proceed with our Australian event.

We have two new corporate sponsor for me to follow up with and the event has not yet even officially ASKED for corporate sponsors. Those letters are still sitting in my computer half done, but will go out in the next week or so. But via personal contact I already know we will get several others than the two that made contact while I was sick.

We have not yet even held the first event…it is not until March, but there is already official discussion on doubling the size of the main hall that will be the centre of things, so the event can get bigger each year. Its local Government owned and yes we are paying a nominal rental, but that is offset

Surely in a country that is supposed to be all for the dollar, your government and corporate interests MUST have means of supporting things that will ultimately help them earn even more money???

How much are the local Hamburger and Pizza joints going to make out of the US Historicon? How much are the places providing accommodation and other services going to make? What about transport? Local garages providing petrol…errr…Gas? to the extra visitors.

Come on….any town where you hold the US Historicon is going to make a whole packet of money. I'm surprised you have not cashed in on that. Your very presence in a town is something to go to city hall and negotiate.

Mal,

No corporation is going to be the least bit interested in fronting a con pitched at such an incredibly small and narrow group a single dime. Any suggestion to any big corp would get laughed out of the room. Your down-under experience doesn't translate here….

Well…that is a shame coastal2, because you really do have something to sell.

Perhaps you need an old horse trader like me to get turned loose in a boardroom to talk some sense into the companies.

Perhaps you blokes have…well…just been too afraid to ask!!!

And in our instance, I have increased the appeal for government, local government and corporations, by adding attractions that will bring along the general public. They are where your spending power is….and your selling point.

I'm not a hunter but I'd love to take a photos/videos and a drawing book. T-Rex first because people are gonna be surprised when they see that they were pink with purple spots.

hamburger joints are all partrs of chains, and all the decisions made for the stores are made at the corporate level

We seem to have one American owned, Australian based chain that is not only very interested, but I believe will provide the support. If they do it will be no secret as they are negotiating to purchase corporate logo and advertising space on all our advertising flyers, posters, banners etc. These people dont have to have a heart…most probably dont….they just need to see that they are going to make money out of it.

Secondly the TOWN is not goign to make one dime off the convention, the local merchants might, but that will be ONE weekend out of the year and that's not even going to be a blip on the graph to them! You can't run your business on one weekend

I only quoted the expected increase of income for two days at 246% for an attendance of 6.450 people for two days. The statistics showed a beneficial flow on for those businesses for the following twelve months due to having been exposed to new customers. And I am quoting figures here, that are provided by Government (not me) as the reason why they 'should' support conventions and festivals.

You must have some strange business people if they wont seize on that opportunity. In recent weeks I have personally visited the management of 76 stores and businesses. They too have been having hard times, but greeted the opportunity to make extra money with complete enthusiasm. Why wouldnt they? The food shops in particular will make a killing. The 246% increase is based on an "average" across the entire business community. But when singled out, food shops will make far more than that.

Surely you must have a Chamber of Commerce and Better Business Bureau in some of these places. They exist to help each other make money and in our case are enthusiastic supporters becsuse they know we will help them make even more bucks than usual.

It sounds to me as if you blokes have been stifled by big business for so long that you just dont want to even try!

There are always smaller corporate businesses that cant afford to put their logo on some multi millionare sports person, but would love to get promotion within what they can afford! A Pizza business owner who doesnt want to increase their income by that much for even two days, is crazy….and ours seem rather sane when it comes to making money!!!!

Please dont think I have any illusions about these sponsors doing it all out of deep pockets and soft hearts. They are doing it to make money….make no mistake about that!

I have to laugh at the not getting any money because we are too narrow or too small a focus for a sponsor. I managed to get a company to pay $1,500 USD for a group of about 40 people to play a table soccer tournament in VA at a hotel in Alexandria, just by asking around. 40 people from across the country whose only interest was soccer on the small scale, and we got sponsored by a computer software company that puts out open source products. We had interest from a brewery too, but as we had underage participants that was declined.

People get their weddings sponsored by the likes of Target and others. Local schools get their stuff sponsored too. It is worth a look. The worst that happens is they say no (Red Bull turned us down because they only do their own events. Chevy turned us down because we were not asking for enough money to make their paperwork worthwhile, but were interested otherwise).

Dear Mal

Depends on the milieu. First of all you're not alone. Local business are happy ANYTIME ANYONE is in a convention center be it the philatelists, auto show, or the plant potting club. IT's not that they're against it. They're all for it. But what WE can get out of it remains another matter. Yeah- they'll gladly put their logo on bags, but pay us money? Ummm----- we'll see. But remember putting a logo on the bag brings in no money. Giving people a 1/2 off a hamburger coupon is nice but that benefits the gamer, not the organization footing the bill.

Second, the question gets down to data 246% of what? Of their normal non convention take?

Remember you started off your argument with the premise that HMGS should be able to get federal, state, local and corporate sponsorship. Now it's shifted to small scale promotional items which bring in no money and don't defray the expenses. While is, it's good for the local business, but-- wait a minute-- as much as I'm in favor of local business and the mom and pop stores, HMGS isn't here to give them a happy day It's here to run conventions and make money, and that means it either has to tap the dealers, tap the consumers or steal it. Second, being in business, I know there is a quid-pro-quo. If a store or business' receipts DON'T go up sponsorship will dry up. You thus become more interested in preserving your own "nut" than in the games.

But all of this ignores one cardinal fact.

HMGS started from zip-all! Nobody gave us nutthing except the guys from Wally's Basement (I was not one of them) and they grew it over the decades and went from Strength to Strength, and grew in money and membership at a robust rate. It all was built from the Dealers, the Game Masters, the Members, and the attendees. We didn't have a "business plan," we didn't have any "missions," we didn't have any "take it to the next level" crowd, or any grandiloquent ideas of "The Hobby.

The came Timoneum, the first convention which broke the pattern and tried to be something it was not, and which lost from $10,000 USD to $40,000 USD depending on who you listen to (You were the convention director for that one weren't you Bob Coggins?) and after that the "The Host is a Dump" and the "Take it to the next level" crowd took over with grandiose visions of turning it into Origens (or making it a wholly owned subsidiary of Origins.) It's been a downward slide since then.

The answer isn't government or the town or chambers of commerce, or hamburger joints, or logos on bags. The answer is "Guys, Games, Fun, Friendship, and Food." You don't need marketing when you have a product the public will rip out of your hands, and that we have in spades. More, the people who make the product will do it all on their own if you just get out of the way and stop, like the government trying to pry money out of them at every level. Just find a cheap venue where you don't have to charge so much and you'll be able to cut costs and more will come.

Great work flicking wargamer. And that was only 40 people too!
Imagine going to them with the attendance figures for Historicon?

Yeah, it's SO much easier to shout "It can't be done!" than to actually TRY. There are plenty of businesses out there that certainly aren't "just holding on" and might (and I stress MIGHT) be interested in this sort of thing. But as usual, the nay sayers will probably win out…

Yeah- they'll gladly put their logo on bags, but pay us money?

Then they dont get there logo on the bag! Its a simple as that. No pay, no display!

I have been astonished at the way so many wargamers rush about putting on games using a company brand, promoting them doing it all at their own expense and getting nothing for it while the company concerns chuckles all the way to the bank. Or at the best they get a few figures for theit trouble.

There are some major wargames companies out there at present who have a completely predatory corporate policy of locking in the gullible, who will then promote them and do all the work out of their own pockets that the company would otherwise have had to pay for.

We've already made it clear to a couple of the gullible, that there will be NO promoting the name of ANY company on their wargames table unless that company is paying toward it. No 'pressgangers' giving promotion to companies that wont turn up and buy a stand, but will instead rely on the pressgangers to send customers to their store and avoid paying for advertising. No way Jose!

AND we have a full hall, and barely a trade stall area left, with still five months to go. There will be the usual predatory corporation games….but hey! No promotion material scattered about unless they pay! Not even a spare rulebook left conveniently out for attendees to accidently see! Its a business running an event and you dont hand out company freebies! Company…you pay and stay, or dont pay and nick off!

You just have to play the game back at them!

Where do you think companies like the Evil Empire, Warmachine/Hordes and flames of war would be if they didnt have a bunch of total bunnies running around doing their promotions work for free out of their own pockets???

If you say pay, and they wont turn up, then so what? We can fill the halls without them….indeed at present we are having to extend with a marquee. They rely on wargamers who are afraid to say 'No'you are not going to get a free ride.

We've already told one of these predatory companies that for the next event they will have to pay for their stand in advance….because in the past they have booked one, not turned up, but run their promotional games, with lots of product displayed…and reaped in the free publicity. To hell with that! One did it two years in a row and this time we've said pay up front for their stall, or no promotional demo games. No free placement of their logo's and rules about the place….not even the corporate T shirt on their chosen players. ZILCH!

Guess what? Some of those wont come….but we have plenty of traders who will come and will honestly part with money for a stand. And if they sell the products of the non payers? Thats fine with us…the trader paid for his stall.
Someone paid the piper…and he can play to his heart's content!

Second, the question gets down to data 246% of what?

Normal daily takings for the same day but without the extra people brought in by the event. 246% increase of that because of the event. There is considerably more data but it relates directly to the region where I reside. I suspect it would be better for the US Historicon because so many people travel to the area, and our figures show each of those spend a proportionately higher amount of money, just as overseas visitors tend to spend more.

HMGS started from zip-all! Nobody gave us nuttin

Wahhaaaaa! We had a member lend us the cash to even incorporate our organisation. Apart from that the only thing in our treasury is HARD WORK. Bloody hard, slogging work! Hours and hours of it. Meetings, negotiations, conferences, letters, email, telephone calls, presentations. But with determination and purpose to run the event as a business.

Remember you started off your argument with the premise that HMGS should be able to get federal, state, local and corporate sponsorship. Now it's shifted to small scale promotional items which bring in no money and don't defray the expenses.

I left government out after comments about that there was no way to get anything out of them in the US.

Where on earth have you got 'small scale promotional items' from? Do you realise the companies must pay for naming rights and logos? THAT is cash. Money. Spondooly. What ever you want to call it. No pay, no display!!!! Crikey…we are not their charity source!

HMGS isn't here to give them a happy day It's here to run conventions and make money, and that means it either has to tap the dealers, tap the consumers or steal it.

Then you need to get some people involved who understand that when businesses and corporations have a happy day, they are prepared to part with sponsorship cash.

Of course HMGS or any other mob is there to give them a happy day. Its the cash sponsorship from that happy day that allows them to run conventions and make money! Its the happy day for the money people that gives the attendees their happy day!

The answer isn't government or the town or chambers of commerce, or hamburger joints, or logos on bags.

Quite the contrary it is the absolute answer! Pay and display.

"Guys, Games, Fun, Friendship, and Food."

Its what the wargamers get out of the event and that is what the organisation running it should be aiming for them to have.

You don't need marketing when you have a product the public will rip out of your hands, and that we have in spades.

Oh dear….a few corporate promotions men just choked laughing. You brute…I think you've just killed several of them!!!
A couple more just fell over their wallets!

The PUBLIC will only rip it out of your hands if they KNOW about it and you get them to where they can BUY it. No know, no buy. No attend, no buy. Or….alternatively….get some Bunnies prepared to go out and do that for free. Remember there's one born every day and in recent years we are seeing more and more corporate plans finding them.

like the government trying to pry money out of them at every level.

This seems to come back to the usual American distrust of the government they elect? I dont want to go political but I always find that lack of trust amazing. We have administrations we dont like too…but we can still work with them! Crikey, they are the government and promoting business is their job. Out of work people vote them out of office!

And when it comes to creating income, ours certainly link arms and help. OK the officialdom can sometimes be stifling and downright frustrating. But if you can convince them you have something they want to happen…even the most tiring beauracrats will make it happen! I'm a witness too it. My committee are witnesses to it.

Sure…they want votes…so there is something in it for them. Our convention is utterly strewn with 'Photo call' opportunites quite deliberately because I have no illusions that they want us to succeed so they can say how clever they were, created business and thus get re elected!

The Beauracrats? If they keep their political masters happy they get promoted. Make them unhappy and they get dumped or dont get promoted.

I'm too old not to understand there is a price on everything. Nothing done for our event is bereft of the understanding that somewhere along the line the supporting bodies will have to make money out of it in the one instance….or gain votes out of it in the second, or please their political masters in the third instance.

When I walk into one particular sponsor's office I know very well that the warm welcome is not because he thinks I'm a jolly good fellow…its because he knows I will send his takings soaring. I have no illusion. Its not "Hello Mal" its "Hello money….errrr….Mal". He's our most enthusiastic sponsor. Why?…because he owns so many businesses and supplies so many others that he doesnt own, that he knows he's going to have a VERY HAPPY WEEKEND! He knows that if the official figure is 246% increase in business his actual will be far higher than that.
Toss some money into the mix and get even more people, means even more money.

That is the gritty and dirty side of business and I know I am sounding extremely cynical. But its how it works.

But hey!Dont knock the guy! He's a business man, he's there to make money. Thats his role. So I dont disrepect him, I simply dont have any illusions about why he's a sponsor.

Just find a cheap venue where you don't have to charge so much and you'll be able to cut costs and more will come.

As was demonstrated here this year….they will ONLY COME if they KNOW its on. And telling them ITS ON (and where)costs money. A cheap hall does not come with a free publicity machine jammed in one corner.

So once again, unless you want to go for a small attendance, that is a disastrous approach to running an event!

If you can get a cheap big hall….and cash to promote the event…that is a different matter entirely. You'll get a good attendance and keep your costs to a minimum. Good business.

Mal, is HISTORYCON a tax-exempt non-profit organization?

Mal, is HISTORYCON a tax-exempt non-profit organization?

No. But it does have tax limitations.

But any profits it makes has, by the contitution, to go back into the cost of running future events.

Y'know….after a recent meeting I came home with my sides aching with laughter. One of the members sent me a quick email saying "To hell with the convention…lets just have meetings". I am blessed with a committe who have a wicked sense of humour when it comes to government at all levels(for which a couple work) and or have experience in the Corporate world of dog eat dog.

Someone can come up with an idea that cracks the whole meeting up, because we not only know it will work, we know the nitty gritty of human nature as to WHY it will work. So we do it….and inevitably it does work too!

Our last meeting was three hours long. Two spend wetting our pants laughing and one getting good solid business done. We have one bloke who can mimick what any politician, beaurocrat, or corporate type is going to say…which sends us into gales of laughter…because we know its going to happen just like that.

I'm truly blessed with the committee.

And we dont take ourselves too seriously. No stuffy formalised meeting. A meal together first, then on to the matters at hand, but no calling the meeting to order when the laughter starts. They will stop cackling sooner or later…and a good laugh is healthy!

So you are expecting 5,000-10,000 people to attend the OLD REYNELLA FESTIVAL OF HISTORY. How many people do you expect to attend the HISTORYCON gaming convention?

OK Nazrat, since you're one of the Yea-sayers, go out and start hustling for the money.

Let me know how that works out for you.

As for You Mal, remember you're in Australia, not in the US. I can tell this by your "Waahaaa " comment. You dont undestand that it'a a point of pride t Americans to do it themselves without anyone giving them anything. You seem to expect it as your birthright.

In any case, until you come here and do it..

As I said, the whole Wally's Basement Crowd did it all on their own, and many gamers today offer time, treasure, and sweat to their own conventions and don't ask anyone for anything! They continued to do it through the bad years, and they are still doing it.

You seem to expect it as your birthright.

Expect it? EXPECT IT!!!!!

Crikey you are now downplaying several months of negotiation and very hard work! I think I feel a shiver of insultment coming over me!!!!

AND it took one hell of a lot of time and sweat.

Sheeesh! I am not suggesting it comes easy. You have to be prepared to work damn hard to get it.

Americans to do it themselves without anyone giving them anything.

Crikey no wonder you lot are in such a muddle these days! We expect teamwork between us and government. Teamwork. We work together, surely you must be familiar with the term?

So you are expecting 5,000-10,000 people to attend the OLD REYNELLA FESTIVAL OF HISTORY. How many people do you expect to attend the HISTORYCON gaming convention?

Accounting for natural human curiosity and being located right near the main intersection, the bus exchange and an excellent restuarant…..and one of the best car parks….I'd reckon on at least half! Which is certainly more than the few hundred we might have got otherwise.

And by putting some of the things IN the main hall….including the only beer stall for half a kilometer, I reckon we'll do pretty good!!!!

March is usually very hot and even if the weather has broken and the rain tumbles down it will still be hot. So faced with having to walk way down the hill to the Pub, the only other place with a cold beer apart from the Oval, which is even further away….and then a walk back up again….I have a niggling feeling that one heck of a lot of people are going to enter that Hall and its annexes….and once you have them in the door, curiosity cuts in again…so a goodly proportion will look at the wargames. Especially if they have kids with them….and wives who will say 'oh look at the lovely soldiers' to children they are clutching!

Now of course the fact that WE have a beer stall at the Hall wont bother the Pub owner in the least, nor if they toddle up to the oval and have a beer there at the sports club, because he's supplying the beer to all of us!

Oh and if they get side tracked and end up at the Winery opposite the Pub? he wont mind, he owns that anyway!

And of course one of the main attractions is a huge refight of Leipzig which will take up the whole of the side hall, and which will be a major promotional item….especially as the Important Dignitaries will go in there to declare the game started!

The object of the exercise is of course to let the public see the hobby in play. Some wont be interested and will go on to something else, but there will be those who are interested and perhaps join one of the clubs that will be represented there….with convenient 'find a club near me' display board, and membership information.

But the reenactors will get similar results. So will the history groups. The artists will do well….especially the war artists. The vintage car clubs will probably get a few new members and so on. The sporting club will have a huge crowd watching the reenactment battles on the oval, so they will pick up sales of drinks, food etc and people who have not previously seen their fine facility, but live in the region might decide to join.

It has been engineered to make sure everyone should gain something out of it…even if only public awareness and promotion.

Mal has solved our problem for us. All we need to do is transform Historicon from a simple wargaming convention to a full-blown summer festival. Then we might be able to drum up some government and corporate support.

We need to have Fredericksburg shut down the streets so we can have a parade of tanks and APCs through the center of town. Reenactment groups can fire off cannons. Vendors can come out and sell their wares on the sidewalks. Stages will be set up so bands can play on the street corners. And of course a huge fireworks display for the final night.

How much government and corporate support do you think you would receive for HISTORYCON if it wasn't surrounded by a major festival?

To give you an idea of how it is designed to attract a wide range of the public, this is the events list so far. As the word has spread so the event has grown in size. We seem to have new ones getting added frequently as more and more organisations join in

EVENTS TO BE STAGED
2013 is the 200th anniversary of the BATTLE OF LEIPZIG. Also known as THE BATTLE OF THE NATIONS. It took place after the disastrous retreat from Russia in 1812 and was fought by the FRENCH of Napoleon on one side against the combined armies of RUSSIA, AUSTRIA, PRUSSIA, SWEDEN and small contingent from BRITAIN.

Already set Activities:
Saturday. Major parade down the main street by military History re-enactment SA and other groups with uniforms and historic vehicles including pre 1919 cars and motorcycles.

Massive model Soldier re-fight of the Battle of LEIPZIG 1813 (The Battle of the Nations) (Old Reynella Community Hall busy room) To be declared open by dignitaries yet to be designated.

Other model soldier battles as well as science fiction games (Old Reynella Community Hall)

Warhammer and similar hobby model battles (Old Reynella Community Hall Marquee annex)

Escape the Zombies game in aid of charity. Public can purchase a figure of a well known movie or TV personality and attempt to get across tabletop town through zombie horde.

Lots of wargame hobby traders.

Restored Old Cobb and Co stage coach building. Blacksmith demonstration & display of artifacts. Old wagons etc behind building.

Restored Alexander house open for viewing.

Noarlunga Model Railway club. Facilities open for public view. (Premises in their own hall near the bus exchange)

The SA Vintage Car club (pre 1919 vehicles) will change its annual veteran run and do ADELAIDE to OLD REYNELLA on Sunday the 10th and will provide a static display of old vehicles for the public to view. To be joined by a vintage motorcycle club. That parade on Sunday.

The Australian Light Horse Association will have fully uniformed, mounted members present for the festival and also put on a static display covering the battle history of the Light Horse in WW1.

SA POLICE History Association. To celebrate the 175th year of the founding of the SA police there will be a display of old motorcycles, uniforms and photographs.

Returned Soldiers League display of hero's from the region.

FORT Glanville Marines will attend the History Festival with a team of 6 1880 dressed re-enactors with 2 pounder black powder firing canon. They are looking at bringing their 16 pounder canon as well for a static display.

Art exhibition. Local artists. Maritime and other art plus well known war artists and others will be present along with Poets. (Large lawn area)

Neporendi Aboriginal Arts cente open for display of Indiginous artwork, customs and culture. Plus pre white settlement ' Dream time' information.

Mock battles by Military re-enactors with old black powder muskets and cannon in the town and on the oval.

Mock battles by Military re-enactors using WW2 equipment and vehicles on the oval or Pheonix drive reserve.

Nine Mile Snipers club demonstrate the firing of 25pdr guns from WW2 on the oval. Noisy, fast and fun to watch.

Reenactors old military camp site in area yet to be designated, but true to history.

Sword Play. Reenactors will show how sword drill and fighting was taught.

Dress dinner in the costume of 1813 at St.Francis winery for 150 people. (Adults only) We have a coordinator who will be able to advise on uniform hire. Chef and his staff have researched recipes for an 1813 era banquet and will wear appropriate attire for the period. THE AMBASSADORS of the countries involved in the Battle of the Nations have been invited to attend the event and the costume dinner along with State Premier, elected members of Parliament state and commonwealth, Mayor, Officials,and Local Government leaders. The national school of cooking and waiting staff to assist.

Local School displays showing the History of the region and its pioneers.

Period costume competition (open to shopkeepers and public)
Lions Club arts and craft stalls

STATIC DISPLAY of the following 3 x Krupp WW1 77mm guns and limber (1 fires gas/oxygen and is spectacular) 1 x 25 pounder WW11 gun (black powder firing) 2 x 4 pounder guns (Napoleonic era), 1 x Hotchkiss 3 pounder, German WW1 Minenwerfer ( type of bomb thrower) , German WW1 MG08 machinegun and WW1-WW2 British/Australian Vickers machinegun.

Historical re-enactment groups from all over Australia attending.

Military vehicles from the SA Military Vehicle Museum and other private owners will parade down the main street with reenactors, AFV's and soft vehicles sunday.

Various bands will take part in the march and provide entertainment both days.

Ambassadors and dignitaries take the salute of the march past of vehicles and reenactors saturday.

Southern Vales wine tasting. Try and buy fine local wines from the Fleurieu Peninsular.

Mary Bywaters Kindergarten 'Devonshire tea' area.

Information booths for Government and Local Government.

LIONS and community group trade tables.

Local hobby groups displays and stands.

Sporting groups of the region will have information booths for potential recruits.

State and Local Government will handle most of the media promotions. The festival will take up the whole of the main street of Old Reynella and many of the buildings. (Approx 1 kilometer long)

One of the well know TV stations will have their weather girl do the nightly weather report from the festival location the night before…and will be flanked by cannon and uniformed reenactors….plus be invited to walk through the huge Leipzig game during her presentation.

Radio or TV competition " A gunner for a day " so twelve people from the public can win the chance to wear a uniform and be trained to fire a muzzle loading cannon.

Funds to be collected for the establishment of the town war memorial….after seven decades of trying to get it done!

Accommodation deals negotiated and to be finalised.

Fly over by vintage aircraft still under negotiation.

Regular and Reserve Military still under negotiation as also Army, Airforce and Navy cadets.

TV corporate rights under negotiation.

Major International Hamburger company corporate sponsorship well under negotiation.

Numerous smaller sponsorships completed or under negotiation.

Negotiations for which one of several ladies hair dressers women attending the dinner will be direct too as the official hair styists for a genuine 1813 hairstyle. Under negotiation. There are five possibles.

Government will arrange road closure for the parade, temporary diversion of bus routes etc.

SA Police will provide traffic control and patrol the crowd.
State security will protect dignitaries.

Southern Youth group will provide helpers.

Some static dispplays will be placed in the Mall and outside sponsor businesses.

And so on. Its taken three months to get organised, the committees etc established and agreement. A hell of a lot of hard work. A huge numnber of man hours. As said, I am blessed with an excellent wargames committee. But most of the rest I've had to do myself.

But there is still a huge list of things to do. Banners, flags, street barricades, bunting, saluting stand, temporary toilet facilities, garbage disposal. Clear camping ground for reenactors, prepare area for horses etc.

Its not easy. Its mostly a matter of having faith in yourself to do it, excellent helpers, visionary people in government, and some good politicians to help.

Nq< How much government and corporate support do you think you would receive for HISTORYCON if it wasn't surrounded by a major festival?

Just the wargames part? I already had that sealed. That was fairly easy as that would not cost anything like the event it now is. Just a couple fo thousand would do it.

But I was of the opinion that a purely wargames convention would just attract "The usual suspects" so I put forward the proposal to bring in the general public. Of course that meant lots more money, but it is also of great community interest and participation. The diversity of events and displays can appeal to most people, thus drawing on a large part of the population. There are two other major festivals on the same weekend, but we beieve that as each is quite different they will not clash, and indeed people visiting one, will probably visit another if it is in their range of interest. So rather than compete we expect to compliment each of them.

I would suggest, that under the principles so far described, all you are likely to ever draw to Historicon USA are indeed also "The usual suspects" even if from all over the place and the numbers can never grow. Nor the event achieve financial stability. To get people in and money flowing you need to draw on a wider audience. I am fortunate that some very forward thinking wargamers could see my point and subsequently we could sell the idea to the necessary authorities and sponsors who could also see the vision.

Goodness me…with the resources available in the USA you should be easily able to do something like that. You would not just 'have it' in a place like Lancaster….you involve the entire town.

Mal, I must offer apologies for my countrymen who can not take a well meaning suggestion as a kind act and just use it or adapt it or just ignore in silence. They seem to have to attack people they don't agree with. Maybe its because were in an election cycle.

Oh…and re the actual wargames part.

No game permitted without a high standard of scenery presentation. Lots of scenery provided for the use of those who are not good at making their own.

All tables have a tablecloth UNDER the game, hanging down the sides, to avoid that very ugly under the table view at most conventions.

No drinks, food, papers or other stuff on the tables. Each has a seperate rules and dice table.

Every club has a recruiting area and there is a reference map so interested parties can locate a club near where they live.

A very wide range of historical periods to capture the imagination of visitors.

Sci-fi and other games also required to be of exhibition standard. Help available if needed.

Clubs have been asked to appoint 'Wargames Uncles' to councel those in need to have a shower as close to the event as possible. The Uncles to be familiar with deodorants and be able to demonstrate their use to anyone unfamiliar with the practice. This has been received with light hearted agreement in this state and we feel that just the mention of it will be enough…there wont be a need to actually councel. But strangely it was received with some hostility in another state!

This is a psychological move. When the clubs pass notices around I really think there will be hardly any 'Anoraks' who wont freshen up to avoid someone asking them too.

One trader has light heartedly (I hope) suggested we extend it to other traders too!

thomalley…dont forget your election cycle is our endless boredom on the news channels and so we have to suffer along with you!

The usual response from fed up Aussies being pounded with the election news from your country is to ask "Who do you think will win?" to which the standard response is "I dunno…some bloody Yank I suppose!"

But your not in house with undeclared party affiliation. The phone calls are constant.

As far as a Yank winning, maybe we need to out-source for a term.
Well we have tried an Austrian Governor in California (Republican) and a Canadian one in Michigan (Democrat).
I think the Canadian one came out ahead by comparison. I don't know which had the tougher job.

I like the idea of, oops we lost a vote, new election in 60 days idea. Maybe one of our states will try it someday.

"This seems to come back to the usual American distrust of the government they elect? I dont want to go political but I always find that lack of trust amazing. We have administrations we dont like too…but we can still work with them! Crikey, they are the government and promoting business is their job. Out of work people vote them out of office!"

Trusting the government here? How about something a lot safer and smarter, like pulling rattlesnakes out of holes?

I don't know what the recent excitement for finding sponsorships, etc. is all about. I don't know whether you could get anything or not. Probably, if you knew someone who knew someone in the small change sponsorship department you might get a tiny amount. But what does this have to do with the real problems of the convention? Our conventions were self-supporting with very reasonable admission costs until people decided to wreck it.

What does something like a bag do? Even if we got someone to give free bags, it does nothing to fund the convention or convince people to come. We'd all just get a crappy bag with someone's logo on it.

Chasing handouts is time-consuming and labor intensive. Who's going to do it? A BOD member who charges his hotel and travel costs to the organization while doing it? Even if someone scored a couple K, what does that really do overall?

And Otto is right that whatever discretionary funds anyone had for marginal sponsorships like this has dried up.

Oh the joy of being the first on page 5 and number 201 in the never-ending "daisy chain" that all Historicon discussions become!

Gentlemen;

I think the obvious is being overlooked or even ignored here. Mal has demonstrated that he can arrange massive sponsorship and funding down under. Nobody here can seem to agree on the location for Historicon. The solution is simple: Let Mal arrange a sponsorship with Quantus, along with all the rest, to fly the attendee's there and hold the bloody thing in Oz! All you have to do is get to a local airport with connecting flights. Everyone's problems are solved, nes pas?

I'll return to my bleacher seat now, as I don't attend Cons anyways.

Bill
Sir William the Aged