"Austrian shakos vs helmets" Topic

Would there ever be a mix of the older Austrian "helmet" infantry with the newer Austrian shako troops? Did some units keep the helmets or did they all disappear by a certain year?

At Wagram in 1809, both were being worn alongside each other. There are illustrations of both being worn at this time.
I did read that the helmet was even worn by some (probably quite few) units into 1813 due to the Austrians constant lack of money delaying uniform replacements.I am sure there are far more informed members on here that can confirm or disprove this point better than myself.

I don't think they would be mixed in the same unit though if that was part of the question. They'd be all one or the other I believe.

The helmets were supposed to be replaced by 1809 but when does any army change uniforms on time? They were replaced by regiment as they wore out, with the Hungarians getting shakoes first – so it would be totally OK to have an 1809 Austrian army with regiments having helmets or shakoes, and I would suggest that the German units would be the ones with the helmets

It appears that in 1809 most 'German' regiments wore the helmet and most Hungarians wore the Shakos (as they were equipped first with it).

The only thing that's for sure is that the shakos were issued on a regiment basis, so in theory there should not be regiments with both shakos and helmets.

Iannick
clashofempires.ca

anybody have anything firm about this..rather than rumour..?

You can read it in several books about 1809. Hungarian infantry received the shakos first and at Wagram there would have been German battalions with the helmets. The exact extent of the transition is unclear.

What rustymusket and ArchiducCharles have said. Admittedly, I have heard this from what I consider authorites dozens of times -- no primary research by me. But if repetition makes truth, then go with that.

if repetition makes truth

It doesn't.

yep a definative source would settle it, I am not convinced by rumour..which are these several books?

and don't say Histoire & Collections

This is what the expert on the Austrian army had to say :

Dave Hollins 21 Nov 2007 3:49 a.m. PST
I frankly doubt if the records exist anymore. It is certainly true that the 1806 decree took some time to implement, so as a simple rule of thumb, it tends to be Germans in helmets and Hungarians in shakos for 1809. The Hungarians went first, so you would be wrong to have Hungarians in helmets with some Germans in shakos. However, no-one could dispute a few German units in shakos. Beyond that, officers always bought their own uniforms, so you can have officers in shakos, although officially the helmets were meant to be handed in en bloc. Varnhagen von Ense, who was a north German volunteer joined one of the Bohemian regts at Wagram and he says he bought the uniform of an officer killed at Aspern, which included a shako.

I don't have my sources at work, but I believe Haythorwaite also mentions the shakos were issued on a regiment basis, starting with the Hungarians.

Iannick
clashofempires.ca

I think you'd be lucky to have them all in a uniform at all….

about as definitve as a chinese whisper can be..shakos for my blokes..

Cardinal can you provide proof that in 1809 ALL German Regts were in Helmets?

Tally Ho!

Or Shakos!!

Tally Ho!

Two or three "Chinese Whispers" for the Cardinal…

Ian Castle in 'Aspern and Wagram' (Osprey campaign series 1994) states (more than once) that most, if not all, the 'German' Austrian regiments were still wearing the helmet in 1809 in spite of the Shako's supposed introduction in 1807-08. No source footnotes of course, this being Osprey, but Castle is one of more reliable Osprey authors.

Scott Bowden and Charles Tarbox state the German regiments "staunchly clung to their raupelhelm [helmets]… throughout the 1809 war while Hungarian infantry regiments conformed to the new regulations prescribing the 'tophat' shako." (Footnote 3 for Chapter One – Armies on the Danube 1809, 1989 edition).

The much respected John Gill repeats the same information in the first volume of his exhaustively researched 1809 trilogy (2008, figure caption).

Not primary information, so this could of course be some mutual regurgitation of something, but these gentlemen take their history pretty seriously so I think we have to assume that their comments are a) sincere and b) based on some source that they thought was reliable enough to make the statement.

And on a general observation I think it's worth noting that the constantly cash strapped Austro-Hungarian army administration were slow (often years slow…) introducing EVERY regulation uniform change between 1792 and 1815. (and there's a fair body of evidence to support this).

DPT

Cheers DPT,

as you say more Chinese whispers!!! I have always been an 1809 Hungarians Shako/Germans Helmet type of chap but with a mix of Victrix sets off my dear wife for Christmas started to look into whether I could use the Shako chaps for my 1809 forces.

There seems to be nothing that can give a definite black and white answer so have gone with a mix, however most will be Helmet,

Tally Ho!

IIRC I had a brief discussion with Dave Hollins about this over on the "General de Brigade" forum a year or so ago, and my recollection of his view then was more that if the shako was issued to any German regiments in time for the 1809 campaign, it would have been on a regional basis (ie those units with depots/cachment areas closest to the source of supply/manufacture).

Hello, comrades.

It was stated that "…if the shako was issued to any German regiments in time for the 1809 campaign, it would have been on a regional basis (ie those units with depots/cachment areas closest to the source of supply/manufacture)."
But where were those source of supply/manufacture?
I couldn't find any information on this so far…

Lets see:

There was a post in recent times that linked to a book of illustrations. These showed how to divide cow-hides to make various accoutrements – such as gibernes and surveying instrument cases.

An energetic colonel-proprietor might get the hides from their own estates and tanned in their towns/villages, the leather then being divided-up and fabricated using regimental cordwainers/cobblers. Any difference between the state allowance and the actual cost would be trousered.

The helmets would seem to be boiled leather – probably quite expensive to manufacture – thriftier obersts might have held on a little longer to save further expense.

Here's some information kindly posted here in the past, which I've gleaned. It's very scant, so it seems the best option is that your 'Hungarians' are in shako and the overwhelming majority of your 'Germans' are in helmets:

"The "official" (k.k. sources) substitution of Caskets with Shakos began after the December 1807 Verordnung in 1808 (with some exceptions – see after) but went ahead in a very cumbersome way (due of lack of resources and the exaggerated increase in troopers considering the Landwehr units). The first units to receive shakos were the Hungarians (it was a common hat in Insurrectio units) but at the beginning of the 1809 Bavarian campaign several German regiments wore old helmets. 
So k.k. IR 54 Morzin (Bohemian) in 1808 "Got the Csako instead of the helmet. Every battalion had its own flag.." 
This is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 34 FZM baron Paul Davidovich – Year is 1807. 
"In September we received the imperial infantry Czakos instead of the helmet as head protection, the Grenadiers, however, maintained their Bärenmützen." 
And this is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 30 De Ligne (Galician) and from k.k. IR62 Jellacich (Hungarian) 
" In December 1806 the infantry got the Csako instead of the helmet. This was made of black tissue, reinforced hardly on the top [mit einem Sonnen-Nacken- und zwei Seiten-Schirmen versehen, vorne mit einer Schlinge und Cocarde von Messing sowie mit einer schwarz-gelben Rose verziert. ] Als o the Officers wore the Czako like troopers, but without Nacken- und Seiten-Schirm and did have [Schlinge, Cocarde, Rose sowie Chargen-Abzeichen von Goldborten.] Corporals had one yellow [Harrasborte], Führern and Feldwebeln had two yellow [Harrasborten] … [bei den Subaltern-Officieren in einer, durch einen schwarzen Streifen getheilten, bei den Hauptleuten in einer breiten goldenen Borte; die Stabsofficiere erhielten goldbortierte Hüte ohne Federbusch.

So IR54 Froon, IR30 Furst de Ligne, (to which I added IR15 Zach & IR18 Stuart based on near contemporary paintings.)

This last is speculative but a painting of EHK rallying the Zach regiment (IR15) at Wagram after the flight of the Insurrectio hussars and another of a unit in dark red facings near the Essling granary (IR18?) were the basis for my decision. Either could well be wrong as paintings cannot always be trusted but four 'German' regiments out of the entire army (about 10% of the 'German' regiments) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Cheers,
John

Johann Karger, who worked in the Austrian military archive until 1919, wrote a manuscript with the title "Die Entwicklung der Adjustierung, Rüstung und Bewaffnung der österreichisch-ungarischen Armee 1700-1809". This very valuable manuscript had been published by the German LTR publisher in 1998.

There's a statement regarding the conversion from helmet to shako at pg. 29, which I summarize as following:

"The helmet was rather costly to be repaired so in 1806 (!) a shako was introduced. First the infantry regiments No. 33 got the first shakos to try them, after it the infantry regiments no. 2, 52 and 48 followed.
Generally the Hungarian regiments should get the shako first.
The German regiments should wear the helmet at least 6 more years (half the time of the prescribed wearing period) and only after heavy damages the helmet should be exchanged by the shako. Due to the big losses of helmets during the war of 1809 it is assumed that the German regiments got the shako during this period."

So it seems, that (most?) of the German regiments went to war with the helmet; whether there were changes during the war would be a nice research in the "Kriegsarchiv" in Vienna. Perhaps some regimental histories (as stated before) may have more exact information (these which I checked have general information about the 1808 uniform regulation and they could be read as the shako was adopted during this year – but definitely they only cite the regulation without any hint about the exact date of adoption).

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

My quick look at some regimental histories (until no. 25) brought the following results (not mentioning the above stated general information about the 1808 uniform regulation):

- IR 9 => adoption of shakos after the war of 1809
- IR22 => a footnote stated that at Aspern "nearly the whole" German infantry wore helmets whereas the Hungarian regiments had the shako

More to check lateron

Greetings
Markus Stein

Week of the throwbacks eh..?

Well done Markus, as he puts a stone of the 'whispers' and reports to a satisfactory degree of probability, now can we get back to the regular programming…?

I'm pretty sure that some [of this] information had been 'libertated' on here quite some time ago…
cheers

this topic comes up every year – isn't there a redux on this?

This may be of interest, please paste and copy

Csákó is an ancient hungarian word which means "tall hat". (Dr. Ida Bobula tells it came from a Sumerian root through Medians, Dacians etc.) It was the Hussar hat which was a Klobuk anyway ( a slavic term)
As for the Grenzers
In December 23, 1795 Gränzberichtigung it was written:
Von der Mondir=und Uniformirung (sic)
The Grenzer must wear the Aerarial=Montur. In the Grenz Service this consists in:
1 Csako, 1 Mantel, 1 black coat von Haustuch (a sort of square apron in an extremely hard-wearing quality with side-sewn tie-bands) … note that the repeated washing of those coats maybe did cause the black hue fading to the known dark brown., 1 white corsage (Leibel), 1 pair of white trousers and a pair of Bundschuh (traditional historic leather shoes tied with a long strap).
source: Staatskunde und Geschichte von Dalmatien, Croatien un Slawonien, 1798
As for the Austrians
The "official" (k.k. sources) substitution of Caskets with Shakos began after the December 1807 Verordnung in 1808 (with some exceptions – see after) but went ahead in a very cumbersome way (due of lack of resources and the exaggerated increase in troopers considering the Landwehr units). The first units to receive shakos were the Hungarians (it was a common hat in Insurrectio units) but at the beginning of the 1809 Bavarian campaign several German regiments wore old helmets.
So k.k. IR 54 Morzin (Bohemian) in 1808 "Got the Csako instead of the helmet. Every battalion had its own flag.."
This is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 34 FZM baron Paul Davidovich – Year is 1807.
"In September we received the imperial infantry Czakos instead of the helmet as head protection, the Grenadiers, however, maintained their Bärenmützen."
And this is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 30 De Ligne (Galician) and from k.k. IR62 Jellacich (Hungarian)
" In December 1806 the infantry got the Csako instead of the helmet. This was made of black tissue, reinforced hardly on the top [mit einem Sonnen-Nacken- und zwei Seiten-Schirmen versehen, vorne mit einer Schlinge und Cocarde von Messing sowie mit einer schwarz-gelben Rose verziert. ] Als o the Officers wore the Czako like troopers, but without Nacken- und Seiten-Schirm and did have [Schlinge, Cocarde, Rose sowie Chargen-Abzeichen von Goldborten.] Corporals had one yellow [Harrasborte], Führern and Feldwebeln had two yellow [Harrasborten] … [bei den Subaltern-Officieren in einer, durch einen schwarzen Streifen getheilten, bei den Hauptleuten in einer breiten goldenen Borte; die Stabsofficiere erhielten goldbortierte Hüte ohne Federbusch.
Sorry but I leave those technical terms of uniforms to the german language friends (too hard for me to translate, not being an uniformologist)
Begging pardon for my translation … but this was very interesting to know
k.k. Hofkriegsrat Verordnung August 18, 1806 ."Reintroduction of the Csako in the Army"
"Keeping in account that the legal duration of the helmet was fixed in 12 years, it appears clear, now, that it was a too much long timing, considering that:
already now, after 6 years of use, only few model of the original manufacture exist;
furthermore the helmet has given proof to be an expensive headgear, considering, in addition, that many helmets were missing due to wounds, prisony et cetera, before their expiration terms of duration;
besides, among infantry, such helmets are considered as uncomfortable;
considering also that many wounds at the head are now an inescapable ordinariness, that the shape of the same helmets is subject to meteorological variations and that their manufacture and reparations cause intolerable expenses for the company commanders;
His Majesty has stated to eliminate them, a bit at a time, in order to equip all infantry units with the Czako.
However this change will have to happen only after each helmet will have reached its expiration date, first beginning only with the Hungarian regiments, acting in a such way to allow the return of the Hungarian infantry helmets back to the Economy Commission, which will deliver them to the German infantry units in order to complete and fulfill stocks and in order to have a number of helmets which could be enough for the whole force; the Commission will deliver a congruous number of Czakos to the Hungarian units, of course.
This will cause a many years delay in the gradually changing of the headgears for the german infantry units.
Officers will retain their helmets till the whole regiment will be ready for the total substitution. Between the german infantry various units it is estimated a legal duration of the helmets for an utter 6 years period. This provision do not exempt Hungarian regiment from avoiding heavy expenses."

von Winterfeldt 12 Oct 2017 11:28 a.m. PST
maybe this helps a bit

"The "official" (k.k. sources) substitution of Caskets with Shakos began after the December 1807 Verordnung in 1808 (with some exceptions – see after) but went ahead in a very cumbersome way (due of lack of resources and the exaggerated increase in troopers considering the Landwehr units). The first units to receive shakos were the Hungarians (it was a common hat in Insurrectio units) but at the beginning of the 1809 Bavarian campaign several German regiments wore old helmets.
So k.k. IR 54 Morzin (Bohemian) in 1808 "Got the Csako instead of the helmet. Every battalion had its own flag.."
This is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 34 FZM baron Paul Davidovich – Year is 1807.
"In September we received the imperial infantry Czakos instead of the helmet as head protection, the Grenadiers, however, maintained their Bärenmützen."
And this is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 30 De Ligne (Galician) and from k.k. IR62 Jellacich (Hungarian)
" In December 1806 the infantry got the Csako instead of the helmet. This was made of black tissue, reinforced hardly on the top [mit einem Sonnen-Nacken- und zwei Seiten-Schirmen versehen, vorne mit einer Schlinge und Cocarde von Messing sowie mit einer schwarz-gelben Rose verziert. ] Als o the Officers wore the Czako like troopers, but without Nacken- und Seiten-Schirm and did have [Schlinge, Cocarde, Rose sowie Chargen-Abzeichen von Goldborten.] Corporals had one yellow [Harrasborte], Führern and Feldwebeln had two yellow [Harrasborten] … [bei den Subaltern-Officieren in einer, durch einen schwarzen Streifen getheilten, bei den Hauptleuten in einer breiten goldenen Borte; die Stabsofficiere erhielten goldbortierte Hüte ohne Federbusch.

The quoted text of the last post of vW is the same I read quite exactly in many regimental histories – in my opinion it is just a citation of the official dress regulation regarding the new shakos – and the given date is not the time of adoption. So I prefer to check the regimental histories apart of these quotes.

To continue my readings (I skip the Hungarian regiments):

- IR 27 => at the 24th of December 1809 a decree ordered the change of headdress, it is announced to the regiment at the 20th of January 1810; after that the shakos were adopted
- IR36 => during the year of 1810 the helmets, which were "partly worn" are to be exchanged by the shakos

… I checked until IR 55 – the last ones to come soon

Greetings
Markus Stein

Well done gentlemen, indeed an issue 'Redux' has over twenty Austrian topics, but only one has a title that clues us to the topic and it is rather brief, albeit the same answer:

"Austrian shakos & helmets"
TMP link

I'm am somewhat heartened that at least partially, another nations uniform dilemmas can be put down as 'progressive changes' and enhancements and not the overnight 'decrees' that everyone [commercially] previously has conveyed as instant change.

We've seen this in organisation (France and voltigeurs); and uniforms (France-Russia-Austria) and flags/ emblems (same ditto).

I think Markus quote is the most logical application of any order- "which were "partly worn" are to be exchanged". Thus units could appear in mixed headgear, certainly in non combat lfe.

cheers d

Another thread discussed this re cavalry headwear (Russian Heavies with raupen or bristle-comb)

The idea: Squadrons with differing uniforms!

The idea mark II: Battalions with differing uniforms!

The problem: do the senior squadrons/battalions wear the latest rig? or do the juniors?

Stoppit!

During my research in my library I also consulted the exhaustive volume "Erzherzog Carl – Der Feldherr und seine Armee", published by many authors of the military museum in Vienna 1913.

There I found this wonderful image done by General von Steininger in 1807 showing the different uniforms and grades of IR 3 Erzherzog Carl:

It is added to the uniform portal at this category link

… my check of the regimental histories if IR 56 ff brought no more information.

I also imagine that there were "mixed" headdresses in some of the (German) regiments, particularly newly formed reserves arriving from their depots could have worn shakos; but at least only archival work in the Vienna Kriegsarchiv may finally solve the question of shako adoption in the Austrian infantry.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Superb Markus!
And I'd agree with your last comment, that there cannot have been exact mumbers of uniform equipment as they came from differet places and times.

One sees in Napoleons orders for units to march via Paris and pick up uniforms when needed, so that in essence he reviewed them AND obtained a modicum of control over how they looked. That clearly wasn't always practical, so 'new men' would be dressed differently to those already in 'operations' outside France.

I trust the myth of the eternal uniform adoption is finished!

regards dave

please note, that those units who received the shako had to hand in their helmets which were then re distributed to those units which still had them.

For that reason – I don't believe in a mix of headdress there the depots should have had helmets to distribute.

Great painting.

What is that hat the guy on the left is wearing??? It looks amazing. Also the soldier at far right, who is also wearing a jacket with two rows of buttons instead of one.

The drummer (4th from left) fits with the description in Austrian Infantry Osprey (sky blue (the facing colour) and white helmet crest, lace on the jacket). Remarkably, given that EHK was apparently a stickler for uniform regulation, if the Regiment for which he was Inhaber could exhibit so much variation, especially in officers' uniforms, what must some of the other regiments have looked like?

Cheers,
John

vW: we don't really know, your point of a purposed harmonization is right, but if it could have been obtained – we don't know; we also don't know exactly whether the depots had enough helmets to provide. So at least only archival work could be of help.

Regarding the painting: I also wondered about the uniforms; musicians were clothed to the personal taste of the regimental commanders (like in all armies of the period), often criticized by authorities. The officer at left obviously wears a fatigue cap, the equivalent of the "Holzmütze" of the soldiers. And the one at right perhaps wears the "Leibel", a simple jacket used for drill services.

I checked the "General Karl von Steininger", the painter; it must have been the Carl von Steininger, becoming Oberst (Colonel) at the IR 3 in 1806 (later he became the general adjutant of Erzherzog Carl and was promoted to Brigade general). So he should have known what to paint.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

I checked the text of the book which contains the painting – and there it is referred to the dress regulation of 1811. It aimed to abolish all uniform parts that are not (!) mentioned in the regulation – and particularly the fatigue caps which were often copied in a kind of French style.

Another quote from a visitor at the festivity of Count Schwarzenberg in Paris (1th of July 1810) mentioned, that the uniforms of the Austrian offices had "more beauty and wealth" than the French.

>>What is that hat the guy on the left is wearing??? And the 'drilling' soldier.

John
Both are simply an undress cap. You can see the immense likeness to the bonnet de police- but I've seen other Austrian illustrations that show it like this with a stiffer body and visor.

The uniform plate appears very 'neo-Grecian' in style and appeared to my eye to be a later production of somewhat romaticised uniforms (and figures, if you get my meaning).
I wonder if the Oberst merely provided drafts and a professional artist did the actual plate presentation; OR in fact the 1907 interpretation has done this?

Either way, I was going to ask if there was a key- but I'd say they are all pretty obvious; the drilling undress and full dress/ kit; the NCOs; various officer dress- all very nice and explanatory to me.

There was a saying in the Government service already when I joined: "Those who make the rules… are the first to break them". As a point of order- rules are made for others to follow…

I think the plate is marvellous and a treasure, even without confirmation of details. It is our eternal gratitude to those who attempted to bring such marvellous work to light by copying given the subsequent destruction and loss of archival material.

On the 'issue' matter- once again I'd conjecture that 'exact or accurate' numbers would rarely be achieved- and recruits would 'most likely' be sent off with whatever was available- if that meant second-hand helmets that had been turned in, then so be it.

Alternatively perhaps they'd turn up in the generic shako while the war battalions wore helmets. I'm not suggesting mixed units per se, merely speculating it wasn't as clean cut as we oftem imagine**.

Again, from the top, N. ordered forward ad-hoc elements to march in undress (gilet and breeches etc.) to be unifomed at a later stage of their march. Can hardly have been different in other nations

Thank you again Markus, vW @all.
regards d

**[I can give a real-world current example- staff for a vaccination centre for last 3 days have been advised that a certain place and time was going to be 'stood-up' for immediate use. AT 1600 Hpurs yesterday, all that is gone. Said staff have now been directed to another location 30kms South of where all their preparations were for!]
-

I checked the text of the book which contains the painting – and there it is referred to the dress regulation of 1811. It aimed to abolish all uniform parts that are not (!) mentioned in the regulation – and particularly the fatigue caps which were often copied in a kind of French style.

That must be for officers, for the rank and file the Holzmütze is well covered in the 1767 regulations.
There existed variations though – see Boillot.

I will send you a pm