"Austrian shakos vs helmets" Topic

Would there ever be a mix of the older Austrian "helmet" infantry with the newer Austrian shako troops? Did some units keep the helmets or did they all disappear by a certain year?

At Wagram in 1809, both were being worn alongside each other. There are illustrations of both being worn at this time.
I did read that the helmet was even worn by some (probably quite few) units into 1813 due to the Austrians constant lack of money delaying uniform replacements.I am sure there are far more informed members on here that can confirm or disprove this point better than myself.

I don't think they would be mixed in the same unit though if that was part of the question. They'd be all one or the other I believe.

The helmets were supposed to be replaced by 1809 but when does any army change uniforms on time? They were replaced by regiment as they wore out, with the Hungarians getting shakoes first – so it would be totally OK to have an 1809 Austrian army with regiments having helmets or shakoes, and I would suggest that the German units would be the ones with the helmets

It appears that in 1809 most 'German' regiments wore the helmet and most Hungarians wore the Shakos (as they were equipped first with it).

The only thing that's for sure is that the shakos were issued on a regiment basis, so in theory there should not be regiments with both shakos and helmets.

Iannick
clashofempires.ca

anybody have anything firm about this..rather than rumour..?

You can read it in several books about 1809. Hungarian infantry received the shakos first and at Wagram there would have been German battalions with the helmets. The exact extent of the transition is unclear.

What rustymusket and ArchiducCharles have said. Admittedly, I have heard this from what I consider authorites dozens of times -- no primary research by me. But if repetition makes truth, then go with that.

if repetition makes truth

It doesn't.

yep a definative source would settle it, I am not convinced by rumour..which are these several books?

and don't say Histoire & Collections

This is what the expert on the Austrian army had to say :

Dave Hollins 21 Nov 2007 3:49 a.m. PST
I frankly doubt if the records exist anymore. It is certainly true that the 1806 decree took some time to implement, so as a simple rule of thumb, it tends to be Germans in helmets and Hungarians in shakos for 1809. The Hungarians went first, so you would be wrong to have Hungarians in helmets with some Germans in shakos. However, no-one could dispute a few German units in shakos. Beyond that, officers always bought their own uniforms, so you can have officers in shakos, although officially the helmets were meant to be handed in en bloc. Varnhagen von Ense, who was a north German volunteer joined one of the Bohemian regts at Wagram and he says he bought the uniform of an officer killed at Aspern, which included a shako.

I don't have my sources at work, but I believe Haythorwaite also mentions the shakos were issued on a regiment basis, starting with the Hungarians.

Iannick
clashofempires.ca

I think you'd be lucky to have them all in a uniform at all….

about as definitve as a chinese whisper can be..shakos for my blokes..

Cardinal can you provide proof that in 1809 ALL German Regts were in Helmets?

Tally Ho!

Or Shakos!!

Tally Ho!

Two or three "Chinese Whispers" for the Cardinal…

Ian Castle in 'Aspern and Wagram' (Osprey campaign series 1994) states (more than once) that most, if not all, the 'German' Austrian regiments were still wearing the helmet in 1809 in spite of the Shako's supposed introduction in 1807-08. No source footnotes of course, this being Osprey, but Castle is one of more reliable Osprey authors.

Scott Bowden and Charles Tarbox state the German regiments "staunchly clung to their raupelhelm [helmets]… throughout the 1809 war while Hungarian infantry regiments conformed to the new regulations prescribing the 'tophat' shako." (Footnote 3 for Chapter One – Armies on the Danube 1809, 1989 edition).

The much respected John Gill repeats the same information in the first volume of his exhaustively researched 1809 trilogy (2008, figure caption).

Not primary information, so this could of course be some mutual regurgitation of something, but these gentlemen take their history pretty seriously so I think we have to assume that their comments are a) sincere and b) based on some source that they thought was reliable enough to make the statement.

And on a general observation I think it's worth noting that the constantly cash strapped Austro-Hungarian army administration were slow (often years slow…) introducing EVERY regulation uniform change between 1792 and 1815. (and there's a fair body of evidence to support this).

DPT

Cheers DPT,

as you say more Chinese whispers!!! I have always been an 1809 Hungarians Shako/Germans Helmet type of chap but with a mix of Victrix sets off my dear wife for Christmas started to look into whether I could use the Shako chaps for my 1809 forces.

There seems to be nothing that can give a definite black and white answer so have gone with a mix, however most will be Helmet,

Tally Ho!

IIRC I had a brief discussion with Dave Hollins about this over on the "General de Brigade" forum a year or so ago, and my recollection of his view then was more that if the shako was issued to any German regiments in time for the 1809 campaign, it would have been on a regional basis (ie those units with depots/cachment areas closest to the source of supply/manufacture).