"18mm Plastic Napoleonic French 1805-1814" Topic

Hello Fine Fellows,

Following up on this thread:
TMP link

Planning continues for a box set of Napoleonic French in 18mm (i.e. to be compatible with ranges like AB, Blue Moon, and Warmodelling) – in plastic.

This will be, hopefully, the first in a full range of plastic sets.

I was interested to gain some more insight into what you'd be most interested in.

1. Campaign or Full Dress?
2. Unit size? I'm leaning toward 24 with 6 skirmishers x 4 per box – 120 total models.

Any recommendations?

Thank you!

I would prefer campaign dress. The unit size sounds good, if they are cheap enough then if people don't want that much command they can just pitch them, if they want more they could buy extra metal command.

Plus that is a good size to start with anyway.

I'd get some and paint them.

Campaign is I suspect will be way more popular

Campaign dress please, full dress on the battlefield is just ostentatious.
The unit size, particularly for French, would be a bit big for my purposes, with my units of around 9-12 figures. As long as command figure sprues are available seperately it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Campaign dress with a way to buy command sets like you can with Perry's plastics.

Look at AB, I would do a coat and shako without cover but overalls (instead of gaiters and breeches)

I suppose my preference if it is to be 30 men per sprue would be the 6 skirmishers as voltigeurs, 4 grenadiers, a command grouping, and the rest fusiliers.

If you were to make a variety of sprues (though it would cost quite a bit more to get off the ground I imagine) separate sprues for the elites, command, and fusiliers would be nice.

My preference would be (if you were limited to 30 figures per sprue) to have two sprues – one with rank and file in "march attack" (including the flank company troops), and one sprue with command and voltigeurs skirmishing. I'd be looking at GdeB so my ideal French unit would be:

Officer
Standard Bearer
Drummer
12 Flank Company March Attack
21 Centre Company March Attack
6 Flank Company Skirmishing

This is what you get in the Perry French Infantry box. I'd second having separate sprues for flank, centre and command. If you could get close to AB quality then I'd buy tons – then I could have a plastic pile to go with my lead mountain….

Campaign dress would be best bet.

Campaign dress please. I am building units for Napoleon at War so your suggested box size would be great for me.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Campaign dress and agree with little armies on march attack. Plenty of command figures give options for unit size for different rules sets. I game in 32 man units but extra command figures can easily be included "in the ranks".

Full dress & march attack will be far more popular contrary to the number of posts above. An enquiry into current manufacturers inventory (Eureka with AB, Blue Moon & Fantassin) will reveal the truth. Although I don't have any real opposition to campaign dress, I prefer the smart attire of full dress that goes along with the cinematic look of the model battlefield. Also the minis will be "on parade" in my display cabinet when not in battle.
Ostentatious indeed!

Campaign dress for me. March attack pose. I'd go with smaller boxes say 42 figures in a box. 36 including command plus 6 skirmishers ie one unit based on 1:20. Even though I don't play 1:20 Is till think this unit composition would be the most popular. You could offer extra command sprues as an accessory. You could mimic the size of the old Airfix HO/OO boxes… over 100 figures is too many per box IMHO. One box, one unit.

Campaign dress

Gozzaoz, interesting point.

While I personally go for campaign attire, along with most of the above posters, this may be a more cultivated preference as most TMPer's tend to be more than passing hobbyists.

It may be, strictly financially speaking, a smart idea to look into validating Gozzaoz's statement, rather than taking into account the preferences of a niche' of purists such as ourselves. ;)

Cheers,
Bob

Campaign dress as long as every figure does not have a shako cover and greatcoat.

Campaign dress is well represented in the current selection offered. OG15s and Blue Moon, of the larger 15s, are the only full dress out there now (yes I know MiniFigs have them as well, but they're older sculpts and are not as popular as they once were).

To my old eyes, those two brands mentioned look very similar, so I would like to see yours in full dress and possibly one pose in a more rigid march-attack pose, a little Parade Ground fancy. Just my 2 cents.

French Ligne battalions in Napoleon at War have 28 figures – one command stand of four figures, five stands of infantry (four each) – one should be Grenadiers, and two 'skirmish stands' of two Volts loading and firing.

So 30 figures per battalion would work fine, especially if the skirmishers are in the act of skirmishing…

I'd prefer campaign dress but would buy either. My battered old French line infantry from 1979 could use reinforcements, maybe even replacements. 120 in a box sounds like a lot.

Full dress gets my vote but the quality of the sculpts is more important to me and would be happy with either one.
I like the idea of really big battalions say 36 figure range with some skirmishers. Like what Perry do now 36 fig battalion with 6 skirmishers. 3 Battalions to a box so 136 figures. Give the option to buy command sprues separately.

Sounds great,
I would prefer campaign dress and the line units in march attack with 3 or 4 different poses in mix for the line like AB.

I use GdB so 1:20 ration would be best for me.

I like the break down of the Perry boxes so the added skirmishers are a nice addition.

Full Dress and March Attack Please.

'One cannot dress too well for meeting the enemy!'

If these figures represent men in combat rather than marching to combat, they would have been dressed in as much finery as they could muster….

Full Dress and March Attack Please!

Oh can the skirmishers being shooting and loading? Not running charging please!

I still think the real question is not how many figures to put in a box or should they be full dress but: can your sculptor match AB for quality? I've not yet seen anybody do so. YMMV.

They are plastics, they aren't going to be as good as AB. But paint makes up for a lot and my old giant-head TTG figures still work.

The only thing that would improve this idea is if he made them for 1805 instead of Waterloo….

In the last thread that discussed them I think the OP was swayed by the idea of doing pre-Bardin French.

I would think of plastics as being "filler" troops that I wouldn't want to put much effort into painting so would suggest march attack in overcoats or at least campaign dress. Anyone wanting full dress could get those in lead. The main issue (aside from breakage) is the quality of the sculpts.

Deeter

Campaign dress and agree with little armies on march attack. Plenty of command figures give options for unit size for different rules sets. I game in 32 man units but extra command figures can easily be included "in the ranks".

My thoughts exactly, however I suspect FULL DRESS would sell better.

Look at best sellers, Perry Plastic, how does their French line infantry look like, breeches and gaiters ??

Not to teach you your business, but do you really need 30 different figures? Or could a half-size sprue of 16 poses, with 8 sprues per box, achieve the same purpose for a smaller tooling outlay?

I consider this discussion settled.

Now give me my 18mm plastic Napoleonic French infantry. I want them immediately.

You really need a mix. Campaign dress will allow quick deployment of an army after a rapid paint up, full dress will add a bit of colour and presence on the table. A bit like the perrys have done in 28mm!! I tend to use my greatcoat troops for D class, and my "nice" ones for C class+

You need to have separate light infantry to allow discrete skirmishing bases to be made up.

You also need to have extra sprues of command troops available for various basing/unit conventions to be assembled.

Finally, dont forget the casualty figures for use as markers. With lots in a box you can take a lead from some of the soft plastics who put virtual little dioramas in their sprues – you could have soldiers on stretchers, wounded being helped to the rear, command HQ parties, map table & generals, cantinieres. You have to be distinctive, and sell the troops not just on cheapness compared to metals, but on quality of moulds and distinctive "extras".

Just mho.

Full dress, for a number of reasons.

1. The splendid uniforms is why we all got into this era in the first place. Why everyone wants to dumb these down to campaign dress is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is that today's wargamers are too lazy to paint the piping on French uniforms. Just look at the collections of the "campaign dress" crowd. Sure, their French wear greatcoats and shako covers, but their British, Russians, Prussians, Austrians do NOT. Has anybody EVER seen a miniature Austrian Infantry unit in greatcoats? I know I haven't.

2. Everybody does campaign dress. Want something unique? put them in breeches with gaiters, and put cording on Fusilier shakos. That would be good for 1806 – 1812.

3. I won't buy campaign dress in any scale, from any manufacturer. I hope others feel the same.

Yes, I have lots of greatcoats in my Austrians. Makes a nice break from walls of white, and lets me see at a glance where the crap troops are in my army! :o)

The splendid uniforms is why we all got into this era in the first place.

Well, not me, so I guess not everyone. I simply like the period.

Why everyone wants to dumb these down to campaign dress is beyond me.

Realisim?

The only reason I can think of is that today's wargamers are too lazy to paint the piping on French uniforms. Just look at the collections of the "campaign dress" crowd. Sure, their French wear greatcoats and shako covers, but their British, Russians, Prussians, Austrians do NOT.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not a 'Laziness' issue for me. I just think some of my troops look 'battle harden' in Greatcoats. Also, French in 1814 WITHOUT greatcoats just wouldn't seem right to me.
My Russian's in 18mm wear gratcoats, (AB MINIATURES and some Warmodeller).

Has anybody EVER seen a miniature Austrian Infantry unit in greatcoats? I know I haven't.

I don't think the Brits were permitted to wear Greatcoats in battle, and If I could get Austrians in Greatcoats I would.

Campaign dress doesn't relate exclusively to the wearing of greatcoats and shako covers [to mention the French].
It could mean, the simple absense of the shako cords, the wearing of loose pants, in lieu of culottes and high or low gaiters, the addition of a water flask, and the addition of a camp kettle or pan.
The piping's still on the lapels, still on the cuffs and still on the turnbacks.
The jacket's still blue, the cuffs still red, and the lapels and turnbacks still predominantly white. The loose pants might be linen, gray, brown, buff or white – that's what adds to the color and panoply of the battle, and as Trailape puts it, the 'battle hardened' look of the troops on the table.
But hey, each to his own.

npm

Well I have 15mm Nap in greatcoats for my Austrians and Russians. 1/3 of my Russians are such, and about 1/2 of the Austrians. My Prussians already have Litewkas and Rock on a number of the infantry – and with half the force being landwehr I consider these to be in campaing dress. If I buy a new brigade, II tend to get half of the figures in greatcoats etc.

I also have a "generic" set of btns. Greatcoat, shako covers, standing high port, flags furled under covers. These are used to pop into an orbat to balance the forces. Their poor schizo minds must be well damaged by now, having fought for all sides and all nations at some time or other!

It also occurred to me that Plastic Soldier Co has loads of 15mm soldier in plastic. For £18.00 GBP you get 130 figures. It's WW2, but it cant be all that difficult to do similar in Naps, PSC are a young company will all the associated problems of a startup when it comes to designing, sculpting masters and producing sprues.

Good luck with your venture, and do please keep us posted on developments.

The advice to do a mixture of campaign and full dress, march attack and skirmish poses, with a few 'vignette' odds and ends, is of course sound commercial advice. And it was hardly the OP's original intent to touch off a die in ditch debate about Campaign dress vs Full dress….so I will temper my comments accordingly even though my blood pressure is about to reach escape velocity!

Campaign dress does not equal authenticity for troops preparing for, or in, battle!

Yes most contemporary eyewitness sketches, for reasons that should be obvious after a little thought, show soldiers in campaign dress when out of action, which of course was the majority of their time.

But it was a commonplace of the period that prior to an expected major action, the troops would do their best to don plumes, cords, and all the other aids to a smart and imposing appearance. Not only did it boost morale, and keep nervous hands busy, it reduced the chances of wound sepsis, and may even have impressed the enemy!

Full dress is of course a relative concept, and the practical late war Prussian uniform is exempt from this rule of thumb, although I expect even here an attempt was made to spruce up and brush off mud and whiten webbing, etc….

Not to teach you your business, but do you really need 30 different figures? Or could a half-size sprue of 16 poses, with 8 sprues per box, achieve the same purpose for a smaller tooling outlay?

Depends on the tool size of the caster he's using, really. Assuming that you're talking sprues the same size as the Perry's, 30 (15mm) figures per is about what I'd expect to be able to fit, easily.

My own 2 cents here… regardless of what period you decide to do, don't make the poses extremely different from each other… i.e. most 1/72 scale sets where there is like 8 guys firing, a few marching, some in some sort of charging, a random guy sitting on a keg drinking from a cup (acw imex maybe?)
all the poses should be of the same type, firing, march attack , or advancing. a march attack box could have a few firing poses or even a couple of dead figures(i'd love to not have to buy a whole separate pack of dead bodies to get one or two for sprucing up a base…

also, you could get away with just a few bodies if the heads were separate… turning the heads a little to the left and right goes along way in making individuals out of a uniform formation…

just my 2 cents

Ben

May I also draw the OPs attention to McDonalds, who spend tens of thousands of pounds researching locations for each of their franchised outlets: footfall, local demograpohics, driving time access, lifestyles, local business access, key shops, motorway and A road distances, etc etc. After such a high investment, Mcdonalds KNOW their franchise will succeed when a new burger outlet is set up.

Burger King, on the other hand, just look for a McDonalds and build an outlet as close to it as possible…..!

Be a Burger King.

Look at a winning formula and copy it. Look at the market leaders and what approach they have taken and use this as your inspiration. You could do no worse than produce dimunitive Perry-style Naps. Then copy the energy of PSC to rapidly produce new roll-outs of 18mm figures to keep the competition at bay! Look at where some went wrong and why they are struggling. In fact why not give PSC a call? Hes a real gent, and it would be worth the cost of a lunch too pick his brain. You aren't in a competitive sector so he might give you some good tips, if he can spare you half an hour…..

This aint rocket science. Good quality figures at £8.00 GBP a box for 48-60 figures will sell like hot cakes; you dont need to overthink your product line. I'd be more concerned as to who is going to sculpt your masters/greens.

I'm not sure if your price point of 20p a figure will give a big enough price difference cf metals btw. While 33p or so is common now for the big names (Jeez!!), you can also buy half-decent metals for 25p – less if you buy an army (Lancashire Games). 48 figs per box = 16p which to me sounds more of a goer. 48 also give the buyer 3 x 16 man units, or 2 x 24, or 4 x 12 etc etc if you have enough command types.

Finally, good tough the views of this board are, these peeps prob arent your best market. If they have an interest in 15mm Naps they probably had a load on their shelves already,so we are talking a couple of boxes per. So think distribution to reach your chosen market. Could you latch onto the coat tails of Nap at War? I sense these FOW Naps will open up new opportunities among those who dont currently play Naps but have enjoyed WW2 a la Ozzie.

PS, looks like you've missed the peak Christmas spending opportunity. :o( If you are serious about doing this, dont hang about).

This last post is probably the most practical post I have seen :-)

Start with what sells the best out there in 28mm. You can always fill in later. I do agree that full or near full dress is the way to go. Campaign stuff can come later on.

Start with the bulk of what sells out there and fill in should business warrant it. You don't have to have a lot of specialty stuff. You competitors can fill in with those. Go with what sells and what will sell well.

Line infantry of various nations with included command packs. No one is going to complain about too many figures but they might complain about too few. 76 or 79 figures will allow those that do 12, 24, 32 or 36 man units to do them. The trickier part will be the command figures. 12 man units are not as popular as they once were (think Empire rules) 24 man and 32/36 man units are. So, three sets of command figures (4 figures in each command of flag, drummer, bugler and officer or you could even add another flag bearer for units with two flags bringing your total to 5 figures for each command set)

I am sure there are 48 and larger number units but these are more rare, I would assume?

4 years later and still nothing…oh well…

You read my mind. I saw this title and was intrigued. I have recently bought my first ever 15/18mm figures. AB of course. I wanted to do Napoleon's Berline in a smaller scale and was amazed by the quality of the castings that arrived.

What made you revive this 4 years on? Why did it fail? Is 15/18 mm too challenging for plastic moulding techniques?

I can't believe I've read all this way before noticing the dates. I was about to suggest the ideal solution of Allied infantry in greatcoats. Forty each of Prussian, Austrian and Russians, with a dozen Swedes. £18.00 GBP a box and you can start planning 1813.

Ben--don't feel bad, I do the same thing. I've started trying to notice the "Zzz" icons--sure sign of a moribund thread. When every post has one,it's a definite dead issue!

Remember- for Napoleonics, we need to be very careful not to confuse 'campaign' dress (for marches/outpost duty/foraging etc) with dress worn in formal battle. They were often not the same thing.

Troops that were particularly cold/hot, tired, badly equipped or fighting straight of the march could look pretty shabby on the day of battle of course.

But- if a formal battle was fought in decent weather, with a bit of warning, by an army in reasonable physical condition, especially in central Europe- something pretty close to full dress might be worn by most units for the big day.

Gotta love a zombie thread

Like the book WWZ (not the Brad Pitt film) or almost any series of the Walking Dead (almost any of them..not all). If I dropped Napoleonics I would do Zombies in 28mm…….

The book WWZ…..brilliant. Beats Adkin's Waterloo for factual history.

Seriously. There must be a market for plastics in 15/18mm, but would mean huge investment and major risk.

Everything says that setting up in plastic moulding is incredibly expensive, but then mass production is just so cheap…if you can sell!