"15mm/18mm Plastic Napoleonics " Topic

Well gentlemen it's been quite an education these last months in understanding the challenges of plastic manufacturing for model figures! But I do believe I have most of it sorted at this junction.

I've decided to start off with 15/18mm Napoleonics These will be:

1. Hard plastic

2. One-piece sculptures (although in some cases we will have separate heads which will be quite easy to glue into place)

3. Price per figure will work out to about 20p each for infantry

4. First box will, of course, be French Line Infantry 1812-1815

5. Our release schedule according to the manufacturer will allow us to put out up to one box set per month, so we should be able to cover the major forces and troop types fairly quickly

All that stated, I would appreciate your thoughts on this first set. I don't play every rules set out there so I am hoping to find a happy balance that meets the needs of the majority of 15mm Napoleonic players with the box contents.

Assuming we will have the majority of models in march attack pose…how many different types would you like to see? How much command?

Perhaps something like the Perry plastic 28mm box but with more than 2x the models?

All thought and comments welcome!

Cheers,
Simon

Sounds like a cool idea. A nice way to build up rank-and-file troops at low cost.
One important thing, make sure they size well with AB/Blue Moon/Fantassin, etc. You'll get many more customers if your figures can fit well in existing armies. I remember my excitement a few years ago when a company announced 1/72 WW2 figures designed for wargaming.
I was disappointed to find that the figures were so large that they did not fit with my existing large metal collection and did not even fit with 1/72 soft plastics. So I ended up buying zero figures from them.

Good luck with your venture.
Be sure to post some pics so we can see how they are coming along!

Sounds rather a good project. One suggestion would be to produce 2 boxes of Infantry. One, with command, in march attack pose and a second with figures in "action" poses with some casualty figures, specials etc.

Thus it would be an option to have figures "in action" if required for skirmish bases if a rule set requires rather than figures go to waste as not required for a particular rule system.

Tally Ho!

Good news.
1) Separate heads might be rather fiddly.
2) Will you be mixing greatcoats and full dress?
3) Will you be mixing covered shakos and full dress shakos?
4). Might be better to have a 'full dress' box and a 'campaign' box or is that too much?
5) Some grenadiers might still be weraing the bearskin(?).
6) Will you make separate command sprues available?
7) Compatability with existing ranges (ie AB) mwould be vital.
Just my tuppence but good luck to you and put me down for a few boxes. Lastly, might be a good idea to concentrate on one army (ie French) with artillery and cavalry rather than following your first box with another nationality.
Nigel

I hope this works out for you. If you could base your box contents on 36 figure units, in march attack (MA) pose, six figures per company add some command and half a dozen skirmishers I'd say you'd be on the money.

Command could be officer, drummer and Eagle bearer to use in place of three MA figures.

You could put one or two units worth in a box. You could put heads in with covered shakos for example for head swaps but please do the figures as one piece with heads so there's no sticking together.

They have to match AB for size and quality, do that and I'd say your on a winner.

Second box has to be British line but you've got to offer Belgic and Stove pipe shako options plus you could follow the Perry model and put some riflemen in there as well.

I really hope this works out.

I do wish you well in this venture. Some good advice above on size and if you could do two units a box I think you will do well.

Seperate heads are a bit fiddly in 15/18mm.

Sounds good
Campaign dress please!

I could totally buy into this if the quality of the miniatures was good and the size was compatible with existing ranges.

With regard to pose I think march attack and a few shooting poses for the front rank, but that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Simon

Best of luck with it. Please think about whether you want 1812-1815 or earlier. My experience (painting more than a million models at my painting service) is that the earlier period, but with shako, is more popular by a wide margin. I know we Brits have a Waterloo fixation, but that is a tiny part of the Nappy wars – and Waterloo is a crap battle IMO :-)

Also look into which French allies you can do with the same models, given which uniform you go for.

2 x Perry – fantastic idea. Few skirmies, marching guys, some standard guys who can perhaps hold alternative gear.

The rest of the odd stuff can go in your metal range.

Actually yes, I second the request to go for the earlier period with the long tail coat, far more useful than the 1812 uniform.

Austrians First!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please please please………………………

I would buy in if one box gave me at least one Lasalle unit, troops, command, skirmishers. I am sure the players of other games feel similarly.

GW now takes this approach with their plastics, a full unit in a box.

The fewer fiddly bits like separate heads the better. Sticking together 25mm plastics is quite enough of a hassle. However any little extras such as casualty figures, command vignettes, etc that you can fill out the sprues with would be a nice bonus.

Best of luck with the project. For me the two buy in points would be price less than metal, and full units in a box.

My thought would be to line yourself up in scale and proportions with a line that sells individual figures in metal (AB?).

Then forget about doing anything wierd or minimal. For example, forget about some units having grenadiers in bearskins still. You concentrate on bog standard bulk troops. Let the metals get the periphery.

Personally, for numbers for French, I want 4 command for 12 fusiliers and 8 flank company. If anything, more fusiliers in the ratio.

I'd say go one way or the other with greatcoats. Either do all your nation's troops in greatcoats or go more traditional and go parade dress.Greatcoats might have the advantage of getting the idea into people's minds that these are what we use to get armies on the table fast and cheap.

Ignore the people who want you to make multiple different boxes. This is good for them as customers, bad for you as a small, niche-market manufacturer. You have to sell as many of the same product as you possibly can in order to make enough money to justify the next thing you make!

I'm not averse to separate heads (and it gives a real chance for variety) but some people don't want to glue anything at all.

You'll have found this out already, but the tooling for a small sprue costs much less than a bigger one, and it makes more sense financially to have multiple identical sprues than several different ones.

That might mean that there are more command figures than some buyers need – some rules have 12 figure battalions, some 36 etc – but you can never please everyone.

I hate gluing but I'll do it if I have to. Still prefer not too. Anyway, if you are able to accomplish what you are talking about, I might actually want to give Napoleonics another go someday.

I'm not worried about changeing heads in 15-18's, if it happens I can work with that, Frenchmen are what I'm lacking. Exrta figures of anything can work for lots of situations. Keep posted on where we can find them. Advertising is the key to success.

Fantastic News. I will buy lots! However:

I recommend you choose a scale, rather than a size. As I suggested before, try 1/100. This gives 17mm to top of head (most people were less than 6' high). Dont worry about fitting in with a range -- if you fit in with AB, you wont fit in with my Old Glory. But 1/100 seems to be right between these, and either range could supply command figs.

Also, a sprue should be a reasonable proportion, with command, line, and a few skirmishers. The aim should be that with a set of sprues, I have the core of the army.

A majority single part, but a few spare heads to enable head swaps would be good. Or maybe some of the officers could be multipart. As Ive said before, I like the assembly – reminds me of my Airfix youth!

If you could squeeze in a casualtie figure that would be great for markers for FOGN or Lasalle.

I think separate heads are a great idea.

Some metal manufacturers offered figures like this back in the 70s, like the old true 25mm Stone Mountain/Musket Miniatures' AWI and ACW figures, CinC's old 20mm historical figures, and GHQ's old 20mm Napoleonic and 25mm SYW ranges.

It's hard to go wrong with historical organization. Two fusiliers for one elite figure would suit most folks.

14Bore is right: keep us posted!

My suggestion for the French is to do the long tailed coat with head swaps for Shako and Bicornes. This way you can cover 1805 through 1812 with one box.

I would try to match up in size to AB as these are the finest figures out these.

Standard bearers should be produced open handed, to give us the option for standards.

Anyway my 2cents.

John

Separate heads are fine for head swaps but the figures should be one piece to give gamers the option to use as is or spend more time building their figures. Heads in 18mm are small and fiddly and many people just can't be bothered to mess about building the figures up.

I guess you could just do centre and flank companies in plastic on the same sprue and do the command in metal as a separate pack. You'd only have to have one type of sprue – quicker to get to market.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Must be compatable with AB, FANTASIN, BLUE MOON, (the main players). Do that, and they can mix ok with OLD GLORY. (My AB's mix fine with OG, but I (and my friends) always look to match with AB (the benchmark in 15-18mm).
Keep it simple. I'd avoid having to glue on heads, (though I personally will still buy some regardless).
A box of 64 to 110 (3 x 32 fig units) would be good all in March attack. Maybe one unit each in Campaign dress / Greatcoats and one in full dress. Have the appropiate mix of Flank Company and Command figs. Stick to 'March Attack' pose except for,.. (see below).
Add in about 9 'Skirmish poses' and 8 Casualty figs for Lasalle or FOG-N (which are rapidly becoming the standard for Nap Games). The bonus is that both system work on 32 fig 'Small Units' or 48 Fig 'Large Units'.
With 3 units in a box you might want to add in a mounted Brigade / Divisional Commander.
:o)

Stick to the standard Line and Light infantry and Cavalry. The Perry's are a good example of this. Nothing too exotic.
Produce with a nice painting guide and some nice quality flags, (again, see the example set by the Perrys).
Starting with French in 1812 Uniform is best, as they can double up as Swiss, Italians, Croatians, some Germans etc.
They can be used for the Campaign in Russia, The war in Spain, the Liberation War, the Campaign in France and 100 days.
If successful then look at the long tailed coat uniform as a follow up set.

I can promise you I will purchase a few boxes if they match the quality of AB or BLUE MOON.
Good Luck and Cheers
Scott

My 2 cents would be to create individual sprues for the following:
Command – with officers, NCO's and musicians and flag bearers, and maybe casualties.
Elite company – all march attack
Center company – all march attack
Skirmish company – 50% firing / 50% loading

Sell the basic box with command, elite and center companies in an appropriate ratio to complete two complete units.
Then offer the individual sprues separately, so buyers can add elites, or command or skirmishers as required.

Good luck with the venture.

npm

It might be worth considering going for a scale that is slightly larger than ABs, etc., but smaller than the classic Airfix 1/76 scale.

I.E. a small 20mm.

The reasons being that:

a) You create a genuinely new range/scale, (But they are still compatible with AB/BM)
&
b) They are big enough to be appreciated as models on the table top, thus appealing to an audience that finds 15mm too fiddly but 28mm too large a project to handle. (And don't like Airfix type soft plastics!)

DB

Another vote for earlier French in the longer coat, with head swaps for shakos or bicorns. I'd buy a slew of them.

Best of luck with your venture.

Like the idea, go with the AB size. But how about a large box of infantry, with a smaller box of command. Then each person can make his units any size they want.

Mick

If they are compatible with AB in size and quality, I'll be looking to buy some. I think it would be great if you had both pre and post 1812 French.
I'm not too keen on separate heads in this scale.

I would buy in if one box gave me at least one Lasalle unit, troops, command, skirmishers. I am sure the players of other games feel similarly.

Yes. Absolutely this. (though I run 'fat' on units because I use a 2" base width) I would buy my entire French army from you if you did this with pre-1812 uniforms! I know 10+ boxes won't even come close to your break-even on tooling, but that's from one person.

I'd recommend using a 40mm base width (if you have space in the tool, even include bases) and 32 infantry, minimum. 48 infantry for a large unit would be even better. Plus skirmishers and command, of course. call it ~60 or so figures per set, with 6 big and 3 small bases.

If/when you do artillery, would it be possible to include limbers and caisson? If you're building to LaSalle units anyway, you'd need one or two limbers per battery.

Just one important thing to mention: make sure it really is easy to use separate heads! Either use a ball joint or a serious post&hole, to make the attachment solid and as unfiddly as possible.

I'd go for the 1812 uniforms too. Many rules can use 24 figure units with three to four command each. Stick to single cast figures.

Most people who want to do head swaps are willing to cut heads off of existing figures so I think it would be better to have a few extra figures in the box that can be used for that or as wounded or skirmish poses.

I agree that 17mm toe-to-eye is a good bet as it will then fit with many top manufacturers.

It is almost impossible to get figs for Austerlitz. Hence, if you do the earlier uniform, but with shako, adding in spare heads in bicorne so those who want cound do the head swap would be great!!!!

Leveraging off another range that is very complete for individual needs will compliment your range nicely. I would once again vote for sizing in accordance with AB as most people love this range but find them a little expensive. If you matched your cheaper masses with their finesse and detail I would say you are on a winner and I would buy a stack of them.

I guess the problem you may have is actually matching AB for quality as other than some HO/OO plastic sets I've not seen anybody else get anywhere close to AB in the smaller wargames sizes. There have been several attempts and all sorts of claims made that such and such a range is as good or better than AB but the reality is (IMHO and YMMV) that they all fall short with failings in one or more areas. For example, big hands, bananas for bayonets, over long arms, short legs, clumsy detail, poor posing, etc the list goes on.

However, I presume you will be doing 3 ups to pantograph down for production so your masters will be 54mm and that opens up all sorts of possible sculptors who may not have made wargames figures before. As long as the limitations of production are understood (as I'm sure you've considered) you might be able to match AB's currently peerless quality in 18mm.

Maybe consider not doing command figures at all! Do a deal with a metal manufacturer of similar look and scale and buy in the one off figures. Better to make an additional line infantry position than a command, you sell dozens of grunts for each command figure.

Great news and good luck. Basing the box/sprue contents off the Perry Brothers would be a relatively safe way to go. Complete unit per box. 2 types of sprue- a standard March attack including flank Co and a command sprue with some skirmishing flank Co etc. If there is room on the command sprue for a casualty(lying not falling)and both Regiment and battalion commands so much the better.
As for release schedule, I think you should alternate and complement. By that I mean don't do a Victrix and release 6 boxes of British Infantry and 4 French Infantry and no cavalry. If your releases went something like-
1st-French Infantry 1812-1815.
2nd-British Infantry Belgic Shako
3rd-French Cavalry…
4th-British Cavalry…
5th-French Artillery
6th-British Artillery
This way customers can field an force made up just of your figures. After these releases you can fill gaps(different cavalry and allies etc).
Anyway, thats my two cents.
Andrew

Please no waterloo period figures, tha market is swamped with these

Please no waterloo period figures, tha market is swamped with these

I'll second that comment, the least interesting period for me would be the Waterloo campaign.

John

If your starting with 1812 French, would it make sense to alternate these with the production of Russians?

As others have said, keep it simple; go for march attack with the appropriate number of skirmishers and command and try to match them with AB in terms of size and style.

If they are anywhere near as good as AB, I suspect that you will have a success on your hands.

When are these coming out? Do you have a time frame? It sounds like the project is in its earlier phases. I think its a great idea though, and about time!

I could understand infantry first but cavalry or artillery close behind? or infantry of another nation next?

I will be the lone voice calling for 15mm rather than 18mm (and I'm not sure why people think 15mm and 18mm are compatible -- there is a big relative size difference).

But one request I will make that I think most would support is please dont produce X identical line figs on a sprue. Please model each slightly differently so the effect is of a unit of individuals rather than a set of toy soldiers.

Neat! Id say 4 command figs per 24 figures.

If you are doing 15/18mm I'd recommend you obtain samples from all of the major manufacturers and make the plastic figures as compatable with as many as possible. I most ernestly advocate you not fall into the trap of making your figures compatable with the 1/72-20 to 23mm figures.

Are we aware that computers are now printing in 3D? At present it's for industrial purposes but prices are comming down and at present 3D printers start at about $10,000. USD

Sooner, I suspect, than later (10 years or so) gamers will be able to buy discs which are programed to print-out figures on demand at the local Office Depot most likely. I have no idea what the price will be but the printing process is not expensive when compared to professionally produced figures. Of course those with artistic talent will be able to produce their own programs.

Bob Coggins

I will be the lone voice calling for 15mm rather than 18mm (and I'm not sure why people think 15mm and 18mm are compatible -- there is a big relative size difference).

You're right, there is a big difference between some 15mm figures and some 18mm figures. There's also a big difference between humans. How tall was the average line soldier in 1800? 5'2, when the Guards were at least 5'8"?

I know the Eureka ranges that were sculpted to match AB are advertised as 18mm, but aren't AB figures advertised as 15mm?

===
@IronMaidenheader:

If you're going to do 1812-uniform French, I would alternate them with Russians. This way you can push the rather successful Flames of War marketing model of a whole unit in the box, no scrounging around or special ordering process needed.

And then I hope you will offer some earlier uniforms for those of use building Peninsular forces!

Keep it simple.

Do the main forces for line infantry first (French, Austrian, Prussian, Russian, UK)

Then add light infantry, cavalry and artillery.

March attack and advancing poses will do.

Plastic will be for massed armies so no need for lots of fiddly extras.

Good luck.

Then do it all again for ACW and SYW and Marlburian and Ancients and ECW and …

Great project, hope it works out for you (and us)!

Since people seem to be worried about separate heads, I would support the suggestion of plug-in heads to help with their positioning. Customers who want to do more ambitious conversions could always clip off the plug.

I would also support the suggestion of including skirmishers, a mounted officer, and at leats one casualty type, as none of these would be viable as a separate set or sprue.

If you're set on the 1812 French, then Russians, Prussians and Austrians for the 1812-14 battles (bicentennials coming up!) would seem the logical next step.

Looking further ahead, plastic artillery equipment would be great! In 18mm this oft-neglected part of every army would fit on most tabletops, but many gamers still skip it due to its cost in metal. Don't take my word for it however – maybe run anohter thread about it here to gauge the reaction?

Good luck.

But remember, if they are not perfect in every way people will make nasty noises.

Thank you all for the advice and ideas. It is much appreciated as I embark on this adventure.

"You're right, there is a big difference between some 15mm figures and some 18mm figures. There's also a big difference between humans. How tall was the average line soldier in 1800? 5'2, when the Guards were at least 5'8"? "

But the change from 5'2" to 5'8" is a 10% change.
The change from 15mm to 18mm is a 20% change. (Hence my often repeated but ignored request for 16mm or 17mm figs)

I know the Eureka ranges that were sculpted to match AB are advertised as 18mm, but aren't AB figures advertised as 15mm?

Eureka Napoleonics and AB Miniatures, (manufactured by Eureka) are 18mm. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. 18mm.
Cheers