"Plastic 15mm Ancients and Napoleonics" Topic

Now that we have WW2 in 15s are Ancients and Nappies far behind? I've been knocking about the idea, possibly batty, of doing either Imperial Roman or French Naps in plastic to get it off the ground.

I lean toward EIR as a full Nap range seems daunting. My thought is a box with 3-4 units of legionaries with command. Perhaps 96 (if four 24-man units) or 108 (if three 36-man units) in the box. Anybody else interested in something like this?

Cheers,
Simon

I presume you mean hard plastic.

No – personally, I have no particular interest in 15mm plastics, although I suspect there may be some takers. You need to think what the advantages would be …

There are very few disadvantages to metal 15mm other than the metal cost in casting bigger lumps like vehicles in modern periods. And that doesn't apply to ancients. Might help with artillery and transport in Horse & Musket periods of course …

Let's see what the tmpers say …

Most 28mm hard plastics involve some sort of construction. Can you imagine clipping 15mm limbs from sprues and gluing together? Hard plastic is also brittle – 28mm bayonets can easily get snapped off, how much more easily a 15mm pilum head?

I suspect someone will do 15mm ancients in plastic, 15mm WW2 is already here, but I don't fancy them myself.

Yes ancients but only if they were single part figures with no assembly, closer to 18mm than 15mm and around PSC pricing of 130 figures for £18.00 GBP Well thought out box contents are are must. Sticking 15mm plastics together would be my idea of a nightmare.

Naps – no I have AB metal and will only buy more AB metal.

Not in 15mm.

However…..in a scale somewhere between 6mm and 10mm, cast as one piece strips (like Warmaster figures), sold in boxes containing the correct proportions of Infantry, Cavalry and Support.

Ancients, Renaissance, 7YrsWar done like that would all be on my buy list.

Single piece (maybe separate shield) and about half the price of metals are a must if this is to succeed. Stick to that and popular armies to start (Nap French and EIR are obvious choices). To be honest I'm surprised it hasn't been done already.
And RobH, you think starting a risky venture in an entirely new scale incompatible with anything anyone already owns is a good idea? I think that would doom it to immediate failure. Remember, the initial outlay in plastic can be in the tens of thousands, maybe more. Not something you want to gamble with.

I've got too much time and money invested in 28mm to consider 15mm. I "MIGHT" consider 10mm scale plastics, especially if molded in strips as the Warmaster are, but that's a very big "IF" for me.

Plus, while we're talking about it, I'd prefer to see later Republican Romans rather than EIR. Lots of the latter already available in metal.

I've got less than zero interest in Napoleonics.

Popular and/or pretty generic Ancients types would probably be more likely to generate the kind of turnover you'd be looking for with plastics, "Hordes" type armies in particular. Ancient Chinese have been mentioned elsewhere – I'd see them as a distinct possiblitiy, but that's just me.

Napoleonics might have too few generic troop types – differences in detail are what many Napoleonic players tend to be a…damant about.

Single piece Ancients would certainly perk my interest. What might be a problem though, is that for popular armies, I already have all that I need in metal. Medieval type figures morphable into a variety of armies might be the best way to start.

Single piece line infantry for Napoleonics might be worakable also.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
link

AgentBrown said:

And RobH, you think starting a risky venture in an entirely new scale incompatible with anything anyone already owns is a good idea?

Not only a good idea but a vital point. Why try and launch a new product in an already over saturated market? Why set out to live off the scraps produced from selling to those people who already have what they need/want. Unless you can make the product appealing enough that existing players are willing to scrap their current armies entirely and start from scratch you will never achieve a critical mass of scale to justify the expense.

A totally new range, well done, with supporting pick up rules and armies, in plastic but not necessarily in styrene (why not softer plastic? or poly resin composite? with much lower start up costs) marketed to people other than current wargamers.

In smaller scales a lot of troops can be "generic" so the same castings can be used for both forces halving the set up costs.
You could even look at producing in coloured plastics/resins so painting becomes a case of adding details and a wash……which is the most common way of painting armies now anyway.

Besides, H&R, Baccus, Adler all "6mm" but compatible?

I think its a good idea, just try and make it so we don't spend our lives assembling them, so only sticking weapons/shields on please.
I'd definitely buy 15mm plastic naps once I've gotten the 15mm sci-fi stuff I'm working on sorted out.
Also, as you've been inspired by the PSC's WW2 (I have their germans) can you try and get the faces right? Their figures are really good, lots of crisp detail, apart from the faces, which are very meh indeed.

I would consider buying 15mm plastic Naps but it depends on the quality. I haven't been that impressed by the PSC 15mm infantry, though I love their tanks.

I have never seen plastics of any type get their value back even if painted. When a historical gamer buys painted minis, they want quality and durability.

That's untrue from my experience. Warlord, Perry and Victrix are producing some fantastic 28mm plastics that I would put on par if not better than most metals out there.

Well if someone makes them I might buy some but really it does not enthuse me that much.

Also presumably to make it viable the manufacturer would do Romans or Macedonians you know the stuff we already own..

Definitely. Someone needs to do this. One piece 18mm Naps, just the basic infantry from the various countries, would be a gigantic boon. Especially if you can get the price down to twenty cents or so per fig. Even better would be plastic strips of 10mm figs, which would allow you to build an army from one reasonably priced box! Now that would be something. I dont mean those pre-painted ACW 10s, those are overpriced IMHO.

An interesting thought.
Start up costs an arm and a leg though. Undercuts are a big 'no-no' plastic moulding wise, hence the assembly in the 28mm, not sure about the market either. Are there really enough buyers out there to make the volume of sales work?
And if its 3 up design method need dammed good desinger to make it work. Scaling up then down again gets real hard as you go down scales.
Lack of wieght and fragility certainly a problem I'd have thought.
I personally dont have the problem with affording the figures so much as finding the time to paint the little fellas! lol
The other problem is that if the basics go to plastics then the odds and sods will have to come from the 'old metal spinners'. Then if they are only selling the odd bits and not getting the income from 'basics' sales they aint gonna be around for long.
L

Most of the arguments above were used when plastic 28s came along.
Why release ranges everyone already owns (EIR, Celts, Napoleonics, Saxons, Vikings, Macedonians, Hoplites etc)? Nobody will buy them. Well, that seems to have worked out OK for Warlord, Victrix, Perry and even Wargames Factory.
Metal manufacturers will go under as they will only be able to release specialist troops? Haven't seen any go under yet in 28mm (Though I'm no expert on this).
Lack of weight and fragility didn't stop GW releasing 6mm and 10mm plastics.
I just don't see a downside to this. The only problem might be the quality but that's down to the sculptor and restrictions in the manufacturing process. We won't know until someone takes the leap.

Yes please go for it. Don't listen to those that simply say it won't work, they said very much the same things when 28mm plastic were first rumoured and they were wrong- big style.

Generic types would be a good start, Hoplites, Normans, Macedonian Pikemen or those that need mass to play with- Geermans, Celts or Parthians- that sort of thing.

Well no one other than those involved know what the profit numbers crunch out as, as for 28mm metal manufacters being affected beleive me they are.
Not sure Gw should be held up as an example they have a marketing system and premier position in their target market that makes conclusions drawn from their experience dodgy when applied to others. They are dashed good at what they do and have profit margin a heck of a lot bigger than you can acheive in the historical market.
Hoplite spears/pikes in plastic at 15mm scales…….uhm better to cast em empty handed can do that snazzily in plastics.
It will be interesting to see what develops. The plastic 28s have brought a bit more modelling to the hobby and that can only be a good thing.
L

Simon,

IMHO this is long past overdue. An affordable entry point into these periods is what keeps our hobby viable and vibrant IMHO. New blood can't get in often if the price tag is too damn high.

Now if you offered a set of say matched opposing forces for a set of one or two sheet fast play introductory rules that came in the box with the set, so much the better.

The follow-on product would be a reinforcements set for each side bringing in more line infantry, a cavalry unit, and if Napoleonics some artillery as well. You can focus on one of the most well-known campaigns to start with, and expand out from there as interest and sales allow.

For Romans, I'd say you might do better with Macedonians versus Persians, as both armies require a lot of "building block" foot units (phalangites and sparbara/takabara), a subject where affordable plastics come into their own IMHO.

I agree about moulding the plastic figures with open hands for wire pikes or long spears; makes a much more user friendly model!

Leland R. Erickson

Oh definitely single piece in most cases although separate shields make sense as it's easy enough to pop on a featherweight shield in plastic.

I would want to start with EIR as it is the period I know best and to be quite honest "love" if I can say that.

I am thinking of 3-6 legionary poses with a mixture between pila and swords accompanied by Centurion, standard, horn blower. My question would be how many in the box and what size units?

Perhaps four 24-figure cohorts or three 36 figure ones? Perhaps a mounted officer to go with the whole?

Follow on sets would be Celts or Germans, auxiliaries, and perhaps some artillery for the Romans.

Cheers for the thoughts. At this stage it's just an exercise in dreaming but then again one can dream can't one? (Don't tell my accountant I said that!)

I dont see why people are complaining

Dont like it dont buy it.

I for one welcome any additional miniature lines to buy off from. I dont care as long as they are of decent quality.

tauwarlord196,
Not sure anyone is 'complaining' as such just a discussion with varying aspects being put forward and a few points from an industry point of view on my side. Its what his place is about .
L

LeonAdler, the point about the GW plastic 6mm and 10mm figures was the weight and fragility issue you mentioned. I wasn't bringing in GW's marketing etc into the discussion as they just don't apply to historical manufacturers, or any other ones for that matter.

Can't add to the arguments above. Personally, I wouldn't buy 15s in plastic.

Agent Brown,
Hello there, that was kinda my point, maybe I didnt express it clearly. Because GW can do something doesnt mean others can do it, the design style and market meant that the fragility of plastics didnt really apply to the GW stuff. Very different prospect if your trying to make something as good as AB for instance. Ive just spent a good while solving the pike problem in 10mm so I have pikes on the brain which is I suppose a better place than other parts of the anatomny!
( no suggestions from ANYONE required thank you)lol
L

A plastic pike sprue might be doable… I wonder of that'd be a realm of interest for Ken at Proxie Models (might be too thin for his rig though).

LeonAdler, Your last statement on your first post hit a nail on the head!! This is also true in the 25/28mm market where there is a possibility that when that happens the only real supplier for "the Odd bits" made from metal will be left to the folks providing the plastics and of course with them being the only choice I wonder what the price may be --???

I for one can tell you that the plastics in 25/28mm have already effected that market as people who are business minded will be very careful with future plans and releases in any given scale?
Remember when there multiple Companies releasing 25/28mm WW11 lines ?? Well, you won't see that again. I am not saying that it is wrong -- in fact it is good business and that is just the way it is.
Does this not sound familar to anyone else besides me?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

As an ex-Airfix man returning to the hobby after 30 years I am amazed that 25/28 plastics are being made !

I was proud of my Airfix armies, then when I came up against metal armies I became upset with them and of course the constantly bending legs and muskets and the paint flaking off.

I know the trend is toward harder plastic.

But surely people want a nice long lasting army.

Every hobby has an entry cost.
A set of golf clubs, a digital slr, a motor cross bike etc etc.

And there is now way I would an army of plastics and metals just to fill in the gaps. With my Airfix I made all the units I wanted. Lancers, Scots Greys, etc etc.

My 2 cents.

1. The figures need to be 1/100 scale. Which is really 17mm scale, as most people are not 6' tall. 1/100 seems to be the accepted scale for WWII plastics etc.

2. Mutlipart is fine -- having multipart lets you pose your barbarians with different arms, differnt weapons, different shields, etc. Even if you do one part figs, some extra arms or heads for modelling would be good!

3. Romans are fine, but the real boon for plastics is with Gauls / Germans / hairy barbarians. Anything where you need lots of troops.

4. Also consider napoleonic line troops and ACW troops.

5. If considering acients, consider vikings / saxons / normans -- another popular period where the same base figs with a few helmet variations could do for most of the base troops. Or Greeks and Persians -- a hoplite sprue with different shields and heads would be fantastic.

6. I prefer plastics to metals -- they were so easy to paint. For my PSC infantry I spray painted base color, painted flesh, painted weapon, painted helmet, washed with devlan mud, and picked out some details. It was quick and easy, and surprisingly effective. No fig would stand up to detailed inspection -- but the overall effect on the table is stunning.

7. Include bases.

Re: Russ at Old Glory – you're certainly not being subtle in your tactics here. Yikes.

Re: Simon with the 15mm plastics – go for it! I would love to buy some 25 cent Romans and field an entire legion or two! This also opens up the possibility of other periods that I wouldn't have considered because of the sheer number of troops needed – but plastic 15mm Zulus anyone? Now THAT would be impressive (and easy to paint to boot)

Yes, Napoleonics please.

In 2002 my wife left a lucrative business (self-employed) to start a new business with all-natural pet products. She had more nay-sayers than encouragement. Market was saturated, how will you compete with the big boys, you don't have a clue about marketing (which was b.s.), and your's truly was a skeptic also). She succeeded by learning from mistakes, carving out her niche, preserverence and marketing herself. Today she does WELL.

I would say the same for 15MM plastics. Its a risk like all new ventures, but success is predicated on risk. As stated, many cons were floated when 28MM plastics came out. They're here to stay. My preference is for metals, but I appreciate there are those that have reasons for buying plastics. And competition is typically good for the consumer. Nobody wants to fail, but again, to succeed, it has to be tried.

I'm 62 and not about to invest big $$s on a new range/army/whatever. But I might be tempted with 15Mm plastics. If the quality and pricing is right, I'm confident there will be a market.

Simon,

(1) Go with what you know best. If EIR is what you know real well, then go with it, and take along your favorite op-for that gave the EIR legionnaires a hard time along with you!

(2) Poses. If you did up a Legion cohort where the figures when arranged in a certain order of stands show a cohort of legionnaires in the act of surging forward while throwing their pila, then you have my attention.

Leland R. Erickson

the only advantage they offer would be for massed ranks (like 40 + sized units marching in step for napoleonics ala charles grant era rules)

and I simply dont see any manufacturer placing an all or nothing bet on there being a market for the massed rank in step figure.

I do see them trying the ww2 route of lots of pose variation – but thats not where you need enough figures to make the sales.

Regarding 28mm metal manufactures going under, Warlord seem to be buying up some of those.

I'd second the comment that asked for them to be 1/100 scale rather than an arbitrary 15mm.

I don't think it'll be too long, perhaps this year, that we see PSC begin to launch new 15mm plastics that aren't WW2. I suspect what has happened in the 28mm market will also translate into the 15mm market over the next five or so years. I remember the day dreaming on TMP about 28mm hard plastic figures…

Keraunos, perhaps I'm being dense but I don't understand your argument. 15mm plastics are only useful for large numbers of identical poses? Why? And even if true why would that be a bad thing? Plastic 1812+ French in march attack pose would seem to be a winner. Or phalangites. Or Seven Years War. Etc.
I wouldn't even bother with command figures as everyone wants them in different ratios depending on the unit size (anything from 12 to 60+ figures). They can always be added in metal.

No interest in anything over 10mm.

If the Gordon and Hague Pre-painted 10mm Plastic ACW are the kind of thing to expect, then no thanks.

I see nothing wrong with plastic 15mm or 1/100(17mm)scale. Though I must say they would be competing with the 1/72 plastic scale,many of which look like remakes of the old Arifix models.

If they were good quality sculpts and well moulded (Perry style), I would certainly buy them if they were compatible with my existing figures.

Surely 3D printing renders moulding obsolete?

28mm assembly with the Perry MINIATURES,some Victrix and Warlord is very easy,easier than gluing metal to metal.Valiant 20's are nice.I would do naps if they had little assembly and were durable.The 28's are do not know about 15's.Just my two cents.Rob

3D printing is far too expensive at present and gives a fairly rough finish. I have access to two 3D printers and am not overly impressed.

LOL!!!

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Agent Brown,

The point I was making was that unless your army requires a huge number of figures, the cost benefit to doing 15mm plastics is quite small compared with lead – its the wasted figures in the box which add up.

You can rule out the ancients market – if you are selling 100 figures thats 1 box for a FoG army of phalangites (all in step) – not worth the effort to market when most gamers have only 1 pike army and rotate the figures into other pike armys as they need them (well, most do, I've got about 4 unique pike armies now, but thats just me).
in 28mm thats 4 boxes – getting on for 100 pounds per customer as opposed to around 25 pounds per customer in 15mm for the same number of figures.

So you look at Napoleonics, or 7 Years war instead – there is potential there, it might work. but as we see on threads all the time, about half the gamers want figures running all over the place, and half want figures marching in step with a bit of head or arm variation.

so you have a 50 / 50 chance on getting the right market. If you do lots of pose variation, the half who want units in step are not going to pay the cost of a 100 figure box to get a single sprue worth of the pose they want.
or vice versa – the guys who want maximum variation are not going to buy a box where all the figures are the same.

the safest bet would be to go all in step, but then its large unit armies you need to get guys to buy that 5th or 6th box.

but how big a market is that? and the set up costs for plastics are very high indeed.

its a huge gamble.

Look at the way Perry's are doing Napoleonics – a few core big sellers only, and all the interesting stuff is left to lead.

they are aiming at one and a bit left over boxes per unit – 36 figures inf or a dozen cavalry

you can roughtly triple that for a 15mm box (since the WW2 sells @100 figs per box)

so at a brigade per box – how many boxes will you sell?

and a lot of rules use a 1:60 man scale, so you get almost the entire army in two boxes.

and the thing about the 15mm market for horse and musket periods is that most guys at that scale want to do waterloo on the table – 8-12 figure batallions.

as I say, it might work, but you have a big decision early on about pose variation – get that wrong for the gamers, and you are in trouble (in WW2 its not an issue and small kids make up part of the market) – and who is going to pay the start up costs on a bet that big?

How will the plastic stand up to breakages in true "18mm scale" (yeah, I know, it's not really a scale :-)?

The 28mm plastics are vulnerable to breakages, so that will be (what) twice as bad if the figures are half sized (should be four times as bad as cross sectional area will only be a quarter of an equivalent "28mm" heroic scale weapon. I know that my GW LotR Rohan and Uruks have a LOT of borken spears, pikes, horse legs etc – and that is in 28mm. 15s are going to be weak. As Mr Adler says, he has trouble in metal for 10mm pikes.

Or will you be making caricatures? With fatter weapons?

And the Napoleonic period may not be an easy one to crack, as the fans can get quite agrressive on the figure details.

I would be all over these in a heartbeat if the price was right (and as far as I'm concerned the PSC ones are right). But of course the real issue is pose variety and command ratio and so on.

The arguments against are really all-over the place and sometimes contradictory. Obviously there's an industry case, and I'm sympathetic to metal producers regarding their difficulties, but the rest are the same arguments people made about 28s, and they're doing all right.

The durability claim is misguided – hard plastics aren't any more prone to chipping or flaking or disappearing in a puff of illogic than metal figures. Heck, as I understand it these days soft plastic does fine in the holding paint department too, but 1/72 isn't my thing so I don't know.

The breakage issue is relevant, but the bending issues didn't stop us all from playing with metal toy soldiers back in the dark ages.

Re: price. Frankly, my 15mm WWII model spending didn't lessen because of plastics (that's a result of us all being poorer now); it just meant I got more figures for the same price. If folks want to do Waterloo in metal and they can only do 8-12 models a battalion because of cost, imagine how much happier they might be if they could now do 12-16 figures for the same cost.

I think plastic for the base units and metal or resin (or that plastic-resin (what does that even mean?) stuff that Mantic and others are using now) for the command and oddball things would likely be the way to go, if you were dealing with really distinctive command figures.

If I was going to jump in on, say, Napoleonics, I'd actually do Russians, since you need so dang many of them.

I think it'd be possible to do simple shouldered-arms/marching poses as a single piece. I'm less sure about some of the other poses.

The typical LaSalle battalion is 32-48 troops in 15mm, push that to 40-60 line and 12 skirmishers or so. Make it two sets of command (for those folks doing smaller battalions). Even include bases on the sprues, make it *really* easy.

One thing to explore would be multiple heads (hey, Peter Pig does it in metal!). Shakoes covered/uncovered, and the different headgear changes (I'm not deep enough into Napoleonics to know how much the uniforms physically changed besides the visually-obvious headgear). I mean, if all it takes to change from 1797 to 1806 french is a head swap, why wouldn't you include additional heads (and instructions for the newcomers)?

The other option would be to box at about 1:10 ratio and have all the troops appropriate for a battalion, including flank companies both in line and skirmishing. This would potentially complicate the multiple-head simplification, since I'm (vaguely) aware that there were massive re-organizations done at various times. Probably have to do something like the Flames of War labeling if you went the 1:10 accurate modeling route.

Cavalry would be a bit of a challenge, I can't see how to make the horses in one piece without a big block in the center. So they're going to be about as complex as the Lord of the Rings horses (glue two halves together, put the rider on top), but all 4 feet connected to the base for sturdiness. Again, separate heads (or cast with one head and you can cut off the one you don't use).

French artillery would be fairly easy, I think, since it's all on the same carriage(?). In any case, enough parts to do the battery in action and limbered in one box (though maybe at 1:2). Maybe even ammunition caissons, but I don't know of any rules that require them.

The challenge would be your higher-level command figures.

Cheers gents for some great conversations and food for thought. I am going to be looking at this seriously. Nothing promised!

Separate thread here:
TMP link