"15mm Plastic Imperial Romans and Celts" Topic

I have decided to pursue this at least as far as doing some due diligence around the manufacturing process and business fundamentals. So please do not take this as a "coming soon" type statement but more of a "thinking about it" one!

As discussed in the other thread the goal will be to have one piece 15mm (actually more like 18mm or 1/100 scale) as much as possible. Shields in some cases would be separate.

The first question I am confronted with as far as the actual product goes (and not the business case for doing it in the first place!) is how many models per box and in what configuration?

Taking the EIR to start. I would think 3-6 legionary poses (some with pila, some with gladius), the three command (centurion, standard, horn). Perhaps 4 24-model units or 3 36-model ones? Perhaps a mounted legate to go with?

On the other hand, instead of going with the larger box of 100ish models, we could also do a smaller blister pack with fewer models and at a lower price?

All suggestions and food for thought welcome!

Cheers,
Simon

I think 36 is a nice round number, so that people can make units of 12, 18, or buy two boxes and make 3 units of 24.

I would look at the most popular ancients games being played in 15mm (DBx, FoG, HC, Impetus) and see what sort of unit sizes they require.

I actually prefer the idea of being able to buy small quantities in blisters say a couple of sprues to make a unit of perhaps 24 figures at a time. I don't like buying any figures in bulk as I then can't face painting them… Little and often.

This sort of blister packaging may actually encourage more people to try the product, perhaps younger gamers. If you were selling a blister at say £4.00 GBP plus cheap postage (plastics are light) – you've kind of got a marketing strategy there. This way people could buy a unit at a time and build the army they want. What you want, when you want etc…

Of course you could still offer bulk packs at a better price but give people the choice.

I think, but am not certain, that those 10mm ACW ready painted plastics have gone down this route.

Have command and line troops available separately. You can guarantee that whatever proportion you decide on will be wrong for some/most people. How about 2 packs, one of 24/36/48 legionaries and one of 12/24 command (4/8 each centurion, signifier and cornicen)?

You might want to think Late Republic rather than EIR – people may prefer to be Caesar rather than, err…

Regards,
Craig

All of these multiple options are good for the player but bad commercially. The packaging and labour ends up costing far more than the figures are worth. My feeling is that commercial success in 15mm will come by having an army in a box.

The real high cost is the sculpting and tooling initially and then the packing later. I would look for a solution for a sprue layout that gives you all of the components of a typical small army. This way, you have 30-40 figures to a sprue an army with 3 or 4 sprues.

An EIR Roman Set could be
• Legionary with Pilum x 13
• Legionary Command x 3 (Officer, standard, musician)
• Archers x 4
• Javelin skirmishers x4
• Auxiliary infantry x 4 with extra arms for command and musician
• Cavalry x 3 with extra arms for command and musician
This way, you have 31 figures to a sprue an army with 3 sprues.

Similarly, a Celtic Warband Set could be
• Warband x 17
• Command x 3
• Skirmishers x 4
• Chariot in 3 parts
• 4 horses
• Cavalry rider x 2 with extra arms for command and musician
This way, you have 35 parts to a sprue and an army with 4 sprues.

This solution gives a matched pair of armies with two standard size Renedra sprues.

Mick

Now that would turn me right off. If I want to expand my auxiliaries I have to buy a load of other troops I don't want. If I want a Gallic army I have to buy a load of chariots I don't want and will never use. I think mixing troop types on a sprue is very bad idea.
I could of course be completely wrong and I certainly don't have anything at stake in this.

@IronMaidenheader, I think doing "due diligence" market research ahead of time is an extremly smart idea.

I, for one, love the idea!

I am in agreement with Agent Brown.

I would like to see boxed sets of one type of troop. IE: Legionary or Celt Infantry, etc. Sell the command minis as separate sets so folks can make whatever they want for their army. Put the cavalry and chariots, Auxilia, etc as separate boxes too.

Personally, my choice would be in multiples of 10 rather than 12 or 16, etc.

Say, 60 infantry to a box.

And I would also rather see Later Republican, as that still lets you fight from the 1st century BC through the 1st AD with the same basic troops.

Just my 2-cent's worth.

V/R

If I were you I'd send Plastic Soldier Company an email to see if they'd spend 20 minutes on the phone with you to help you avoid pitfalls – they were the first to do plastic 15mm and I bet they'd have a load of DON'Ts to warn you about as well as DOs. Romans wouldn't be competing with them so I see no reason why they wouldn't be willing to give you some advice – also about costs, distribution, etc.

My instinct is you will need to shift big volume to make this finacially viable. There's a reason current hard plastic manufacturers sell big boxes of common troop types. Whether you sell in boxes of 60, 64 or 100 or whatever is immaterial – no-one is going to not buy your figures because they might have 2 or 3 left over from whatever size units they like. And they will have to be cheap – metal 15mm are cheap as it is, you will need to be something like half that to get people to buy.

Some people like their Romans with swords rather than pilum. Some like them standing at the ready, others in action poses. I suspect doing one of these rather than doing half of one and half of the other will be the best course. If you try and please everyone you end up pleasing no-one is a truism worth remembering!

Late republic vs EIR – surely EIR are far more popular? Take a look at the FOG competition results, the galleries on Fanaticus, etc – I'll bet EIR come up twice as often as Marian at least.

You're a brave man to be thinking along these lines – good luck to you if you decide to go for it. Don't forget Warlord started with a box of hard plastic EIR and look at them now!

What Alex said!

You need to make it enticing for folks to try out a new period. Slamming them for a few hundred quid on day 1 wont do that.

Why not work with, say, Impetus and produce a linked product, much as has been done in metals with DBA. Both parties would benefit I am sure. BI starter sets won't cost much, might just get the GW crowd taking it on board, or the FOW guys moving on from WW2?

Big 15s or 18s must be able to integrate with other figures out there – not sure if 18s will do that. So why not make them 20mm? That scale hasnt been around since 25s kicked them into touch in the 70s…….

Boxes not blisters will sell the product better. Price point £5.00 GBP for single sprue (could be command etc sprue) or £10.00 GBP for a few sprues – 50 or 60 figures.

I hope it works out for you. Dont forget the gimmicks – elephants, chariots, flaming pigs etc. Its the novel stuff that gets you noticed!!!

Any idea how many figures you expect to get onto a sprue?

Sorry, duplicate note and it wont let me delete it.

And put shield decals in the box.

And not rub on decals--water slide please!

I think army in a box is too limiting to one set of rules. Rather three core sets (legion, auxiliaries and maybe a cavalry/artillery/camp) might be best.

You can mix and match sprues to make an "army". Or just buy a buttload of whatever army you're into.

My 2 cents (again)

1. I like Mick in Switzerlands idea.
2. I would also think late republic -- Caesar and the Gauls. You then have an option for a 3rd set -- Pontics.
3. If people need additional auxiliaries etc, they can buy metals. I am sure many people will mix some metals in.
4. For the barbarians, each fig needs a different sculpt -- to get the mass of undisciplined troops effect.
5. Shield decals in the box is a big plus, making poor paint jobs looks superb. Maybe each decals in 1/2 a shield, so the decals will fit around the shield boss.
6. Maybe work with PSC, and get a line in under their banner, so the distribution and packaging is worked out.

If you do this I will buy them!

I'd guess that Republican are more popular by a wide margin. I seriously doubt that competition gamers are your primary market. A decent chunk probably. Republicans have a much wider variety of opponents available. I agree about talking with other companies and doing some market research if possible.

Thanks,

John

Perhaps you could ask Bill to run a poll – "EIR or Marian Romans in 15mm plastic – which would you buy?"

Are you fully decided on Romans? Looking at the number of Dark Ages rules coming out this year maybe 15mm Dark Ages would be the way to go?

One box of fairly generic infantry and one box of cavalry/skirmishers. Simple to do and a lot of people would buy in if they could make Saxons/Vikings/Britons/Scots from the same boxes.

1815guy has an interesting idea: Basic Impetus armies in a box. THAT might be a bit hard to do, but good heavens it is a novel idea.

Certainly there are a lot of DB_ armies sold in metal as a single boxed set. 15mm hard plastic Basic Impetus is something that might well fly, since it's very doable with the limited number of units required, especially when considering Roman/Celt etc.

V/R

I like the idea of archers and skirmishers (slings, javelins) in small amounts included in a legionary box. Those who dont like them could swap them out with other buyers.

I, personally, would prefer Marian to later armies.

If you were going to do Dark Ages stuff, you would need a lot more variety, and I would suggest multi-pose to get the variety players would want. Not sure how feasible that is in 15mm. (Breakwaist ?)

I agree that the army in a box is a good concept, but the numbers you are talking about are only suitable for one rule set (for example in the DBx sets, there are no Javelin armed skirmishers in EIR).

Most of the rule-sets I am familiar with base in multiples of 2, 3 and 4, so packs of 24/36/48 infantry would be suitable. Probably just 24 & 48 if they are monotype. Then you have the issue of command figures. Some people will want command as 10% of figures, others, as 5% or less, depending on what rules agaon.

So from what I gather, plastic figure molds are expensive. The designer is going to make a mold that has lots of figures on a sprue. What he does with it after that, is up to him. The more steps, the more expensive the figure.

I'd like to see figures on the sprues.

I'd like to see them in the same denominations as other plastic figure manufacturers.

So, if you are making a Roman Legionare box, they should have several sprues of Roman Legionarii. Something like 12 figures to a sprue and 36 to 48 er box. Multiple poses should be a must! Poses should not be to active please.

Cavalry boxes usually come in 12-18 per box. Perhaps 4 poses.

Etc. Etc.

I say this because it is probably the most cost effective method of plastic molding for both the consumer and the manufacturer and I am FRUGAL!

As discussed in the other thread the goal will be to have one piece 15mm (actually more like 18mm or 1/100 scale) as much as possible. Shields in some cases would be separate.

Depiction and casting of lorica segmentata should be possible in 18mm but what about mail armours used by the auxiliaries,who should make up half the army,the heavy cavalry and the command figures?

What's the minimum figure size for getting an open hand that could hold a sword or pilum to give variants?

If open hands were used then posssibly no more than 3 poses with mainly right arm variation but eschewing easily damaged overarm throwing figures. With separate shields as per figures 3 in The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome-WRG publication)

Using a (braced for impact) leg pose as per 16 of that book would ensure it was possible to get 4 figures comfortably on a 40mm frontage.

Auxiliaries in more dynamic and more variant poses (they tend to be based on deeper bases) but also with separate shields as per fig 15.

Separate shields as per 4 and 6 for legionaries and 14 and 36 for auxiliaries from AEIR-WRG available on accessory sprues along with spare weapons.

If the venture was successful sprues based on figures 2 (or 3) and 7 would extend the time range of the armies could be released and cover the legions that never adopted the lorica segmentata.

Thanks to one and all for the ideas and suggestions! Quite helpful. I am leaning toward smaller packs of one type of unit to keep it simple with EIR legionaries first.

I wonder about bases. It seems that there are so many different basing conventions and preferences (metal, wood, plastic) that it would be difficult to appease [anyone!] ?

Cheers,
Simon

I'd be basing 18mm plastics on steel so I'd rather not pay the extra for them. I guess there are almost as many basing conventions as rule sets so it might be tricky deciding which rules your bases would 'support'.

I think I wouldn't bother with bases for now – I'd concentrate on the figures themselves.

For ancients, the DBx basing convention is the most common standard. The other competing standard, used for WAB, is really only used for 28mm figs. So if you do basing, there is really only one standard to use.

The extra cost of bases is in the time spent to put them into the box. The plastic will be negligible, as will the sculpting costs.

Personally, I will use steel myself as well. But I think they are worth thinking about.

I wouldn't bother with bases – although DBx is an obvious choice the popularity of rules like Hail Caesar and Impetus means people aren't necessarily defaulting to DBx sizes as much as they might have done previously. It'll help keep costs down too.

IMO Corvus Belli are the ne plus ultra of 15mm metal Romans. That should be the standard you aim at. Note their poses too – fairly static but characterful.

Id say strips of 4 abreast for HI.

Leave bases out of it. Players can choose their own depending on the rules used.

"Thanks to one and all for the ideas and suggestions! Quite helpful. I am leaning toward smaller packs of one type of unit to keep it simple with EIR legionaries first. "

Be careful you dont throw away your price advantages of plastic in packaging costs. I'd hate to think how much a dozen colour printed blisters will cost you, filled, compared to a single box of 4 sprues.

And pristine sculpt quality – Perry style, not Wargames factory.

I know nothing about the commercial nor practical aspects of this: but is there a reason why the same sprues could not be packaged in different ways? Victrix (I think) use the same British Nap bodies with different arm sprues for flank companies. Could you not analyse "army configurations" in the same way they do figure configurations? So some packs could have the support troops sprue others not? (In other words, could you market the same sprues packaged differently for different markets?)

Dont wanna go sticking 100s of arms on them….

Hat 28mm strategy will show you the way, and is the way to go. Except for the bit where they announce new figures then never produce them!

Please remember
1) The barbarians have to fit on a base. They are going to be in as close order as the Romans so no mad psitions please.
2) The units will be looked at from the front and above do the shields need to be forward and angled up. too many manufacturers angle shields down or to the side so that they are invisible to you or other gamers.
3) having the shield forward and up also hides some of the figure so it makes painting a lot simpler!
4) If they are plastic don't make swords and spears too vulnerable. they need to be a little thicker than tru scale or they break off.
5) Its a great idea to have some of each troop type in a pack rather than separate packs. If there are three cavalry per pack I have to buy 12 packs!! That makes sense for the manufacturer.
7) If it is some of each type in the pack then the Celts need 1 archer, one or two javelin skirmishers, a couple of chiefs, two standard bearers, maybe five nudes a musician in each.
7) Worry not about the chap who is concened about a chariot in every pack. That's because a separate chariot pack would have multiple chariots in it and that would mean people buying only say two packs…. crazy economics for you.

Oh and on this thread Mick in Switzerland is talking good sense !!! What others are saying is fine from an individual wargamers point of view but if you don't make it work financially there won't be other packs coming out.

Thank-you, Lewis Gunner.

I would also support your points.

I am not in the miniatures trade but I have been watching the successes and failures of many brands.

Mick

Units of 24 with command would probably be best. For FOG (which will be one of the biggest target markets), legionaries will normally be in units of 4 bases (16 figs) or 6 bases (24 figs).

I would make sure the figures are compatible with metal figures, as you will presumably only be making the more common troops. I think the best strategy would be to make them the same size as Essex 15mm, as these are, I think, the most common 15mm figures.