"Why Do Front Rank 18th Century Guns have 2 Barrels?" Topic

HI All,

I recently purchased some Front Rank 28mm Artillery for my new WSS Armies – and I'm trying to figure out why they come with two different barrels? I tried emailing Front Rank but their website's a bit flaky with the contact form (it gives weird errors and no way tell if it posted the enquiry correctly), and I haven't heard back so they may never have got it or are too busy to respond…

So does anyone know the story behind the alternate barrels (18th Century Arty is not my strong suite)? Are they (1) just to provide variety (e.g. to model long/short or light/heavy varieties of each gun) – or are they specific for either (2) Nation or (3) era – e.g. the 4pdr & 6pdr guns have a long barrel for French and/or for all nations in the WSS and GNW early era, and a short barrel for British or Austrian and/or all Nations in later era WAS, SYW and AWI and such, etc?

Appreciate any insight…

Many TIA,

John
Wargaming.info

The barrels from FrontRank are usually much to larege in the bore anyway! They seem to assume if a 6pdr. is X mm. in diameter a 2 pdr must be twice that diameter!

There was a TMP thread on this topic several years ago, as I recall.

Maybe the short barrels represent howitzers?

One is for left handed gunners, the other for right handed…

I think you are more accurate in your own post from reading something on this topic previously; different lengths to represent different calibre or nationality of guns.

Mycenius;

I'm not personally familiar with Front Rank's guns, but have seen others do the same thing, or possibly a variation.

If the barrels appear to be the same caliber, or at least the same approximate diameter on the outside, then it probably represents the difference between the French Vallière system barrels of the Model of 1732 (longer by caliber) and the barrels used under previous systems, including the Swedish system, earlier French, etc.

Here is a link to an excellent blog whose author is currently creating detailed schematic diagrams of the early artillery and he explains things a bit.

link

If the barrels are of a different diameter or bore, then they could represent the fact that some carriages were used for more than one caliber. However, I believe that the case above is more likely. Just different systems and casting/boring techniques.

In the early years of the 18th century there was still a great deal of artillery in use from the previous century and the Nine Years War. These would have included guns very similar to ECW-era "Sakers", which had a longer slimmer barrel also. A few excellent resources for artillery are:

B.P. Hughes, "Open Fire, Artillery Tactics from Marlborough to Wellington"

John Norris, "Gunpowder Artillery, 1600-1700"

Colonel HCB Rogers, "Artillery Through the Ages"

Joseph Jobé, editor, "Guns, An Illustrated History of Artillery" (various article authors)

There are, of course, other books on the subject, but I have found these to be particularly useful for the late 17th and early 18th centuries. YMMV.

Regards;

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

In case you burn one out you have a spare.

I swop them around depending on whether I am representing medium or heavy artillery.

I think I recall from the previous thread mentioned by DAF that the short barrel is for use in the field and the longer, i.e., heavier, barrel is for use in fortifications.

Maybe the short barrels represent howitzers?

@Glengarry 2 – no that's not the case as they have specific howitzer models and they come with only a single barrel.

If the barrels appear to be the same caliber, or at least the same approximate diameter on the outside, then it probably represents the difference between the French Vallière system barrels of the Model of 1732 (longer by caliber) and the barrels used under previous systems, including the Swedish system, earlier French, etc.

@burlesonbill – Thanks Bill – yes that is what I suspect although FWIW I think it's the other way round – the early WSS & GNW guns have long barrels as per the earlier Renaissance Sakers, Culverins, and such and the later post 1720-30's improvements (e.g. the French 1732 Vallière system) introduce the shorter barrels to make the guns lighter and more practicable as field carriages…?

Thanks for the SYW blog link – I'll peruse and if necessary contact the author to see if he can help with the earlier era weapons…

…that the short barrel is for use in the field and the longer, i.e., heavier, barrel is for use in fortifications.

@John Clements – Thanks John – the trouble is I think that's true for SYW and similar (WAS?), but not for the early 18th Century WSS and GNW and the League of Augsburg era in the late 17th Century, where the (medium & heavy) guns aren't much more evolved than they were in the TYW, ECW, and mid to late 17th C conflicts. The only major change I'm aware of from about 1700 or a little earlier is the introduction during the 1700-1721 era of the first use of "Battalion Guns", and the increase in use of the lighter 3pdr-4pdr 'Field' Guns…?

There was a TMP thread on this topic several years ago, as I recall.

@ Der Alte Fritz – I found this thread: Who makes 25/28mm AWI French artillery? – is this the one you are thinking of with the below comment by @Supercilius Maximus:

Front Rank guns are Valliere, but are generally thought a tad large for 25/28mm figures – it is often suggested that you buy the next calibre down from what you actually want to depict.

Or is this far too 'new' – and you really mean years and years?

P.S. The only other vaguely relevant one I could find under 18th Century in the last 2 years was: 28mm SYW Artillery.

Hi John,

Sorry I missed your comment/query, having only looked at my blog the other day as I prepare to post some new artillery illustrations.
I don't know what models you have there and what ordnance they are supposed to represent (whether that of a particular nation or rather more generic). Here is what I can give you – meant to serve as a rough guide for general orientation.
According to a 1760 published tutorial on gunnery, the classic dimensions for German ordnance fielded by around 1700 were as per the below:
(dimensions given in multiples of shot diameters – often called calibres – this being the widely accepted method of proportioning barrels then. Length measured from barrels breech end to face of muzzle – i.e. cascable and button cast onto rear of barrel omitted)
The 24-pdr half cannon (Halbe Karthaune) barrel length 21 shots (calculate approx. 14,5 cm for shot diameter)
The 12-pdr quarter cannon (Viertel Karthaune) barrel length 24 shots (approx. 11,5 cm)
The 6-pdr Falkaune barrel length 27 shots (approx. 9,1 cm) Before 1700 also longer ones around up to 36 shots, I would assume, but not included in this book
The 3-pdr Regimental cannon recommended at between 14, 16 or up to 18 shots (approx. 7,2 cm)
Here also longer ones fielded. Often 24 shots.
As to 3-pdr battery guns, I also know of pieces of 30 shots such as the M1717 Austrian one and certainly also even longer ones up to 36 shots should have been found fielded. The 30 shots M1717 Austrian barrel was still fielded in the early WAS campaigns at battles of 1741 Mollwitz and 1742 Chotusitz.
As to French ordnance, the so entitled New Invention ordnance from around 1690 did all come with 10 foot barrels (24, 16, 12, 8, 4-pdrs)
The lighter 4 and 8-pdrs also came in a shorter version of 8 foot length.
Calculating with 3'' per shot for the 4-pdr that makes the 8 foot piece a 30 shots barrel and the 10 foot piece a 38 shots barrel. Not so much different from the German system, really. However, the Paris Army Museum has a large collection of scale models that also include many pre 1690 pieces. Among them a 1685 Douai type 4-pdr with a 24 shots barrel.
All the above does not include the culverines but applies for cannons only. I also omitted all ordnance of less then 3 or 4 pounds shot.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Christian