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"Don't forget the Sandras!" Topic


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abdul666lw Inactive Member27 Nov 2011 5:41 a.m. PST

link
By Eureka:

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Not that the range introduced navel wargaming -for long so familiar to fantasy players- to the Lace Wars community.

Does not appear on the Eureka site, but the minis are available: they appear in a few Imagi-Nary armies, and not only in those based in Australia.
The range is 'on hold' for years, but hopefully would be expended if better known.
Cavalry is specially lacking: at least mounted versions of the current infantry (dragoons: conveniently, the 'infantry' is already in boots) -also useful for skirmish games, allowing to have the same 'characters' riding and dismounted.
And I suspect Hussarettes -again mounted and on foot- would receive a warm welcome, re. the unexpected success of the Hinterland late 19thC. / early WWI ones hinterlandminiatures.weebly.com .
Even 'hard boiled historical' Bill Protz of Campaigns in Germania link and BAR rules fame painted a small detachment of 'Pandour Maiden Guards' -Hinterland- but had to photograph them from a distance and from carefully chosen angles to hide the late 19th C. details such as the ammo pouches:

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link

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 9:35 a.m. PST

Too bad nobody makes something similar in 15mm :) they do have fuzzy hats afterall.

-Eli

deflatermouse Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 11:39 a.m. PST

seconded to the above sadness.

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 1:05 p.m. PST

Hmmmm… I wonder how hard it would be to convert some troops for these in 15mm. The girly parts aren't going to show all that much through that uniform in 15mm.

-eli

abdul666lw Inactive Member27 Nov 2011 1:26 p.m. PST

What's the point if the girly parts don't show???? wink
Soldadets for 'Defiant Principality' raised a regiment of soldiers' widows link I believe he simply added greenstuff breasts to 'historical' minis link .
15mm female elves could probably receive a tricorne (or a fur hat) and a musket?

Then, remember that wargaming minis are intended, NOT to be individually scrutated under a magnifying glass, but to be seen en masse from some distance: meaning that essential features have to be… emphasized evil grin
TMP link

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 2:05 p.m. PST

Defiant Principality's work is definitely something to model after. I'm not sure Alcovian women would be quite so fair.

-Eli

abdul666lw Inactive Member27 Nov 2011 2:09 p.m. PST

For sure they would!

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(Howard's original 'Red Sonja' -as 'Red Sonya of Rogatino'- came from Eastern Europe, if I remember well. And there is a *strong* tradition of Amazons / Sarmatian warrior women in the area.)
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Agnes de Chastillon / Dark Agnes / Agnes de La Fere, another Howard's 'She Devil with a sword':

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Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 6:19 p.m. PST

Let me rephrase, I am not sure I could sculpt such beauty at that scale.

-Eli

deflatermouse Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2011 11:59 p.m. PST

One would have to awfully close to notice.
" Men! Don't shoot until you see the …of…. their…….ohmy…"

abdul666lw Inactive Member28 Nov 2011 3:23 a.m. PST

Eli,
since you convert Persians to have an 'Eastern' enough look, I'm sure there are 15mm Amazon in 'Skythian' dress available. Exchanging their bowcase for a carbine &c… would offer 18th C. possibilities.

If the Alcovian nobility is of pure Rus / Varangian blood YouTube link many would be blond Ė haired YouTube link

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP28 Nov 2011 6:31 a.m. PST

I think that with a few simple head swaps and some green stuff skirts, that some eastern musketeers could be converted into a female regiment easy enough, though I'm not sure if I want to go that route. I mean, if everybody does it, it just ends up being cliche'.

-Eli

abdul666lw Inactive Member28 Nov 2011 8:40 a.m. PST

Even among Imagi-Nary armies female regiments are far from being that common! And for Alcovia it would be fully justified by a 'regional tradition' dating from the Sarmatians and even the Ancient Amazons:

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Sarmatian Matriarchy and Amazon Women
The most fascinating feature of Iranian-Sarmatian culture is their women warriors. Herodotus reported that the Sarmatians were said to be the offspring of Scythians who had mated with Amazons and that their female descendants "have continued from that day to the present to observe their ancient [Amazon] customs, frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men" Moreover, said Herodotus, "No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle."
Both Herodotus and Hippocrates accounts inform us the Sarmatians took interest in turning their women into strong-armed huntresses and fighters. Archaeological materials seem to confirm Sarmatian women's active role in military operation and social life. Burial of armed Sarmatian women comprise large percent of the military burial in the group occupy the central position and appear the be the richest.

link

But the female unit is more likely to be light cavalry than infantry, then.

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.

PS: possibly some interesting images for Alcovian cavalry (or any 'Eastern European / Caucasian / Anatolian' Turkish, Ossetain or Neo-Byzantine Imagi-Nation: dariocaballeros.blogspot.com

Mike Target07 Dec 2011 3:49 p.m. PST

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that little bit of chainmail isnt going to be much use in a fight is it…

Mako1107 Dec 2011 8:38 p.m. PST

Depends upon the type of action, I guess…..

abdul666lw Inactive Member08 Dec 2011 9:26 a.m. PST

The (in)famous chainmail bikini is not armor per se but a dreadful device of psychological warfare: "Don't shoot until you see their… their… ugh?".
Works against *all enemies*: straight males, religious fanatics (who look away screaming for an 'adult filter' as on TMP TMP link ), female warriors or heroes (who prefer women anyway). So the chainmail bikini provides better protection than any full suit of plate armor evil grin

skaran08 Dec 2011 10:19 a.m. PST

It is well known in the fantasy gamer circles that the less the armour covers the better it protects. Even turned up in one of those Forgotten Realms novels, Azure Bonds I think.

abdul666lw Inactive Member14 Dec 2011 2:59 p.m. PST
Mike Target14 Dec 2011 4:36 p.m. PST

These days I very rarely purchase anything from the evil empire but in looking for an C18th-ish female I chanced upon Arwen from the LOTR range, with a weapon swap etc i think she'll do nicely. Wish I could find a tricorne to fit her really…

spontoon Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2011 5:34 p.m. PST

18th. century women's tricornes were often rather small and perched upon their elaborate hair do's. Cut one off an old Minifigs figure and it should have about the right size.

Mike Target14 Dec 2011 5:44 p.m. PST

Ah, well Ive plenty that are far too small…though I did try it and thought it looked odd…

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2011 6:01 p.m. PST

Cock it to the side, perhaps add a feather or plume for added lady-ness?

Jeroen72 Inactive Member15 Dec 2011 1:59 a.m. PST

Kate Bush scared me to death when i was a little boy :(

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Dec 2011 6:07 a.m. PST

Great 18th C. Arwen!
Larger 'manly' tricornes are not historically rare, according to contemporary portraits of ladies in *'riding habit'*; smaller tricornes were more associated with 'civilian' dress. And I agree that larger tricornes look better, provide a better 'labeling' on miniatures.
I suppose a Wargame Factory box of 'generic WSS infantry' would provide a *lot* of useful bits and pieces? There is also a single tricorne on a sprue of 'pirates weapons' (Blue Moon 25?).

abdul666lw Inactive Member22 Dec 2011 12:35 p.m. PST

Eureka 100 for 'new' (?) 28mm Sandras:
Female Imagination Infantry: link
Female Imagination Cavalry: link
Female Imagination Artillery: link

May I add that the original Sandras were rather… subdued and underdone? "Wargaming miniatures being intended, NOT to be scrutinized individually under a magnifying glass, but to be seen en masse from a distance, their most essential features have to be emphasized." evil grin


In the meantime I maintain that the 'current' Sandras are already quite good, and that, since they wear high boots, it would not be a drastic investment to issue riding versions -Eureka already produces appropriate horses.


For 15mm, Eureka 300 18C Imagination Female army: link

trailape Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2011 5:43 p.m. PST

I Hope Nic reads this:
Raechel just pointed out that the hand position of the flute player's right hand needs to be reversed.
She loves the miniatures but thought she ought to point out the incorrect hand position, (being a flutist herself).
We assume it can be corrected.
Cheers

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2012 10:04 a.m. PST

Britney Spears didn't forget!

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-Eli

abdul666lw Inactive Member14 Jan 2012 12:38 p.m. PST

She looks like an Alcovian attempt of Amazon in 'modern' uniform grin

Paint Pig14 Jan 2012 2:22 p.m. PST

She looks like a disaster

Patrice Inactive Member14 Jan 2012 2:42 p.m. PST

So the chainmail bikini provides better protection
Did you ever try to put chainmail over hair (…any hair)?

I am a re-enactor, I own some chainmail. I did try it (and someone else was also involved).

We were not very happy about it.

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Jan 2012 5:35 a.m. PST

Mary Gentle, SF author and Live action RPGamer, stressed it long ago in 'Ragnarok', the journal of the SFSFW: a chainmail bikini *has* to be lined with soft leather, chamois for instance.

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Jan 2012 8:12 a.m. PST

Raechel just pointed out that the hand position of the flute player's right hand needs to be reversed.

Don't forget the Sandras come from Australia, where people live upside down, have Christmas in summer and where toilets and bathtubs drain clockwise (a friend of mine explained to his drill sergeant and an awed audience of draftees that the guns intended for use South of the equator are rifled anticlockwise because of the Coriolis effect!): this may explain other oddities… grin

Paint Pig15 Jan 2012 4:13 p.m. PST

this may explain other oddities…

Oi! We're not odd just in tune with the physical nature of rifling and drains.

abdul666lw Inactive Member02 Feb 2012 8:09 a.m. PST

Sandras illustrated, in Hesse-Cassoulet service:

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link


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Really, the range is in want of dragoons (merely riding versions of the infantry fusiliers)!

Clays Russians04 Feb 2012 12:26 p.m. PST

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, i think I found my Dacha guards, I'll take about 144 please, 36 redheads, 36 blonds, 36 brunettes, & 36 black ravenhair cuteys. all with brownbess 2nd pattern longland model

trailape Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2012 3:01 a.m. PST

Hi
Here are my "Maiden Guard" Gunners in action:
link
Cheers
link
trailape.blogspot.com.au

abdul666lw Inactive Member05 Feb 2012 5:42 a.m. PST

Rachael's Troop of Artillery

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of the King's Maiden Guard
link
link
(and don't ask me why these .JPG refuse to appear as images!)
link
deserves a direct link!

Wow, I was afraid not to see the Holy Mormoan Kingdom
link
appearing on your blogger profile as posted on Trailape's Wargame: phew!

abdul666lw Inactive Member14 Apr 2012 11:38 a.m. PST

The question of Lace Wars female soldiers figurines is really a *vicious circle*. Given the quasi-absence of miniatures very few players field a female regiment; then, since they don't appear on the web, in conventions… manufacturers doubt they represent a growth market and decline to invest.
And yet there *is* a market -not of the scale of the historical types offered e.g. by recent initiatives such as Minden Miniatures, but certainly larger than that of the Eureka SYW Teddy Bears. So much the more as, not only are most Imagi-Native players willing to add a 'Maiden Guard' to their force, but 'female marines' can appear in 'pirates' games: and pirates players are an open-minded bunch, their pirates often meeting dinosaurs, King Kong, Deep Ones and zombies.

Nothing really in 15mm and 'Soldadets' had to convert WSS male types: with their baggy coats and given the scale he obtained very satisfying results.
link

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In 28mm there IS a very good, if limited (no mounted versions, chiefly) range, the Eureka 'Sandras'
But it is kept obscure, absent from the manufacturer site and thus practically ignored; its diffusion remains confidential and local, of the handful of Imagi-Nation builders I know to use a Sandra regiment at least 3 are Australians.


Now the femininity of the Sandras is very subdued: specially for the infantry (with the coat on) nobody seeing them from more than a foot could imagine they are not men (even the variant tempting to lure us to navel wargaming, if painted with a shirt, would pass unnoticed). To the point that an Imagi-Nation ruler having received a few posted on his blog the first painted one without having noticed she was a girl.
But wargamers -adults playing with toy soldiers- are generally young at least in heart and mind; specially the 'imagi-native' ones, of course. Thus I'm sure most of them would appreciate more… obviously feminine female soldiers.
Uniform suggestion:
- short coat (re. Black Scorpion Marines

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or even slightly shorter) tight-fitting, narrow waisted;
- instead of a waistcoat a topless corsage worn over a shirt with a generous cleavage: as featured in the traditional Bavarian Dirndl worn for the Oktoberfest, Google for images or search Youtube for videos
YouTube link
YouTube link
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- very high thigh boots: less 'historically accurate' and practical than gaiters or dragoon bottines, but is it really a problem here? An objective advantage of boots would be that walking and riding variants would wear exactly the same uniform, making them dragoons: then, all foot types could be duplicated mounted, drummer included (I know, historically dragoons had oboeists rather than fifers: but then, what about a bagpiper instead? With the goat head still attached to the bag to be more spectacular).
When Soldadets raised his female regiment link he initially planned to convert Blue Moon Shivan Sisterhood (with high boots) but they are 18mm.

Specially in such a case it must not be forgotten that wargaming minis are intended, not to be scrutinized individually, but to be seen en masse from a distance: thus, the most distinguishing features are to be… emphasized evil grin

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Now, no miniature in such uniform exists as yet: maybe posting the corresponding template on NBA nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.fr would arouse so many positive reactions that an enterprising manufacturer would decide to take the plunge?

Prince Lupus Inactive Member15 Apr 2012 2:49 a.m. PST

Having created my forces in 1/72 I was a little jealous of the "larger" Sandras.

However things may be looking up.

link

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Apr 2012 3:05 a.m. PST

@ Prince Lupus: they are excellent!
But why do you call them 'Napoleonics' on your blog? They are clearly of the 'tricorne' era. A communication mistak, if I may, given that Napoleonic wargamers are, on the average, far more 'deadly serious' and disinclined to indulge into 'unhistoricity' than Lace Wars ones.
Hope you'll not mind I repost here the photo on your blog, the figurines deserve it.

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abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Apr 2012 3:08 a.m. PST

Regarding the Sandras, the easiest / least investment requiring way for Eureka to start expanding the range would be to make variants of the infantry in riding pose (Eureka already has suitable horses). This would make the Sandras dragoons and they were (re. Maurice de Saxe's RÍveries) seen as 'Jack of all trades' able to fulfill many different roles: mounted line infantry, light troops, 'commandos', cheap heavy Horse…: thus the minis could fit any niche in an Imagi-Nation army. Besides, for Petite Guerre / skirmish games (such as e.g. the episodes of the never ending struggle between Lady Pettygree and Milady de Winter played by Bill Protz and DAF link) players would appreciate to be allowed to dismount the Maiden Guard during the game (e.g. started as a mounted escort, dismounts to fight in buildings or difficult terrain, remounts for the pursuit…).
[Eureka / manufacturers take note: these two veteran wargamers are reminders that 18th C. players are an open-minded bunch, even die-hard 'historical' among them make forays in imaginative territory , potential buyers of 'fictional' minis are not restricted to builders of Imagi-Nations.]

Several rather small recent manufacturers produce lovely female minis: Banelords, Guild of Harmony, Kabuki, Kingdom Death, Raging Heroes, Vesper-on (Carnevale) to name a few. But Eureka proved long ago with their 'Pirate Lady' figurines (some also sold by Irregular) -the 'root' of the Sandras- to have a sculptor gifted to render lovely women and cute feminine faces.

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Regarding a more… petulant range of Lace Wars female soldiers minis as suggested above, perhaps not the easiest detail to sculpt and paint, but the blouse should be edged with a lot of doily lace: it was the time of the Lace Wars TMP link

spontoon Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2012 6:46 a.m. PST

RAFM has some female settlers firing muskets in their Flint & Feather range.

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Apr 2012 8:42 a.m. PST

There also many good Pirettes, but when it comes to building a regular, uniformed unit…

Prince Lupus Inactive Member15 Apr 2012 10:57 a.m. PST

"But why do you call them 'Napoleonics' on your blog? They are clearly of the 'tricorne' era. A communication mistak, if I may, given that Napoleonic wargamers are, on the average, far more 'deadly serious' and disinclined to indulge into 'unhistoricity' than Lace Wars ones."

Not my blog Jean Louis just pointing in their direction. As you saythey are definitely "Lacy"

abdul666lw Inactive Member16 Apr 2012 9:48 p.m. PST

The Eureka100 Club has 3 'projects':
Lace Wars Female Imagination Infantry: link
Lace Wars Female Imagination Cavalry: link
Lace Wars Female Imagination Artillery: link

If these come to fruition, ideally Eureka would still keep offering the traditional Sandras (completed with riding variants): a manufacturer launching a line of SYW Prussian fusiliers does not withdraw the SYW Prussian musketiers he was already producing! 'Improved' and 'traditional' Sandras would play complementary parts, e.g. Guard / Line vs Militia / Light troops if the 'new' Sandras are more glamorous.

The Sandras are arousing much interest on the LAF: link
Hope Eureka (&/or another manufacturer) will feel motivated to answer. If the thread here and posts elsewhere reveal enough interest / potential buyers, Eureka will consider this rather simple way to expand the range (they already have suitable horses) and make it more readily available: turning from a vicious circle to a snowball effect.

abdul666lw Inactive Member16 Apr 2012 10:46 p.m. PST

As it happens, I still have other suggestions (more for skirmishes / pirates / swashbuckling / Lacepulp / Lacepunk games than pitched battles) for 3 'characters' / female heroes (heroines scream and have to be rescued):
link
An 'adventuress', a quasi-elvish Assassin and a 'Pirette captain': are some of you liking these suggestions?

abdul666lw Inactive Member17 Apr 2012 3:07 a.m. PST

Regarding the individual preference for generously endowed or androgynous looking ('flat like an ironing board', as we say in France) female minis, everybody is allowed his / her own tastes, of course.
Yet in some cases this wish for 'subdued' femininity reaches odd extremes. As if it was feminine beauty which was 'shocking', obscene, had to be toned down / hidden (from children?). On TMP vignettes of 'finishing off' a helpless wounded foe are displayed for all, children included, to see; but bits of unpainted metal or plastic 28mm high are concealed behind an 'adult filter' because they represent 'topless' women. Seems to reflect a bizarre perversion of aesthetic / ethical values, of what is really ugly / obscene, of what type of images children have to be protected, if that is the underlying reason of such censorship.

abdul666lw Inactive Member17 Apr 2012 5:38 a.m. PST

If the new plastic '1/72 semi Sandras' from Germany are actually 'large' 23mm (almost 25mm), women on the average are more petite than men, put on thick bases they could appear in a 28mm army? A princess' Nubile Guard?

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(posted at Paul's bods TMP link
link)

freecloud25 Apr 2012 7:20 a.m. PST

I saw the Eureka pillow fighting girls in Hussar jackets at Salute, sadly as a serving Warlord I was too busy running around and ran out of time to buy them

Captain yapudo25 Apr 2012 10:46 a.m. PST

I definitly prefer those PIRATES…..

ERROR - no url for link

OR THIS FOR ADULT ONLY….LOL

ERROR - no url for link

Come In Nighthawk25 Apr 2012 3:54 p.m. PST

I have several "battalions" of the "traditional Sandras" (12-figs per Piquet), a few in "marching order," and a few in "summer marching order" (i.e. the ones in coat and bikini!). I LONG for some cavalry to go with them!! I'd like "hussars," but would settle for "dragoons;" probably most easily created by adapting from the existing infantry figures. I'd also like to see the Countess herself, so she can command her "division" (or "corps"), and, I'd also really like to see some "light infantry" or Jaegers "skirmishing." Nic?? ;-)

As it comes to it, I have not had the time to paint these battalionz yet -- and frankly, I am not sure how they'd be received on the games tables 'round here. But a few weeks ago I hit on "a PLAN!" "I have a PLAN," to quote Aldo Venucci… "Pose-men!" [A term I became acquainted with when I used to do re-enacting with the Sealed Knot.]

I am currently trying to paint the 37th RoF for my little contingent of "His Britannic Majesty's Army in…" So, the other day I pried one Foundry figure in M/Attk off the "stix" and slapped one of Sandra's galz in "marching order" onto it in his place (didn't want to press my luck w/ a "summer marching order" gal yet since I'm not sure what reaction this gal will get -- if she's even spotted). I then quickly brought her up to the painting level to which the battalion has progressed… If it works, I may have found a use for a fair number of the galz -- until I get time to paint up a few of those battalionz! :LOL:

Now, as to future releases? I've heard of these "Eureka100 Club" "Lace Wars Female Imagination Infantry," "Cavalry," and "Artillery." But the link to Nic's site takes one to a blank page -- or takes me to one anyway. How'm I supposed to "see" the proposed figures to know if I'd "like" them??

Finally, I've heard once before from a source about an alleged set (a pair?) of "pillow fighting girls in Hussar jackets." But I have never seen any images of them. Is this a joke?? Or are they real? Inquiring minds want to know -- and want to see them!

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