"Does Hard Plastic or Metal give better detail?" Topic

Dear All,

In recent discussions about the offerings of the Napoleonic and Ancients Hard Plastic figure manufacturers such as the Perrys, Victrix, Warlord Games and so forth, there appear to be two camps on which material, hard plastic or metal, gives the better detail, and each camp seems to take it for granted that everybody accepts their position…

So this is not a suggestion for a poll about which is the better model overall, time to prepare for painting, heft on the table etc, just the level of detail rendered by the sculpter's original efforts…

So which is it – which gives better definition and detail

a. Hard Plastic
b. Metal
c. Depends on the manufacturer and sprue mold
d. No difference

Kind Regards,

Sparker

Metal-plastic may be cheaper but metal has better detail and finish. One reason why smaller scales are still in metal they cant get the same detail in plastic.

The flow characteristic of metal and the molding methods allow for sharper lines and undercuts. Plastic can be forced into finer impressions in the mold with less shrinkage which would permit things like shako plate and buckles to have more detail. Plastic is also is more self supporting (more strength) so muskets and bayonets can be thinner.

The real question is the value per figure. For what you pay do you receive a quality piece? I have taken to the new plastics and like them a lot.
On another posting I placed a couple of photos, one of Perry plastics and one of Foundry metal.

The reason more makers don't do plastics is the tooling cost. A couple of hundred dollars for a mold for the metal vs. thousands for the plastic, plus the injection equipment. The detail can be done in the smaller scales in plastic, the market just isn't there (yet) to support it.
TMP link

Metal. More pronounced and sharper lines make it much easier to get a good paint job into. Obviously some manufacturers such as Perry are getting pretty close with their plastics, but even Perry metals vs plastics I prefer the metals.

I think you're actually talking about two different things here.

Detail and undercuts.

When it comes to detail – plastic beats metal. Hard plastic – not the 1/72 soft stuff. You're talking about injection molded pieces into hardened steel tool. (Not spun cast soft metals)

BUT…what people actually mean when they talk about "detail" is the undercuts that can be achieved with metal and resin figures. These figures are produced in bendable mold materials – organic and silicone rubbers – and thus the parts can have features that just can't be achieved in the same single piece in plastic.

The trick for the plastics manufacturer is to create multiple parts in such a way that you can get that same type of feel with multiple parts glued together instead of a single-piece metal casting.

c.

Metal. But the question is whether the extra detail is a good trade off given the cost and other advantages of plastic. I'm firmly in the plastic camp.

You can also achieve some FINER details with plastic that are just too thin for metal figures.

Case in point – here's a 15mm figure we sculpted and produced for Flames of War compared to the metal version it was based on:

*in high pitched hair-band voice* MEEEETAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!
\M/
*BEER*

Really can't tell until they are primed and in my view the metal have slightly better detail.

No difference between my perry metals and plastics.

C. It depends on the maker and the mold cutter.

Find some "old" Airfix HO scale figures,plenty of detail there even for late 60s early 70s.

Overall with maybe a few exceptions metal. I have seen some plastic better than some metal. But overall metal.

NSPfT,

I like the slimmer figure, but there are some fairly major issues with that example; the gaiters look more like the long US gaiter than British ankle-gaiters, the beret is a tad small and the 'Sten' doesn't look like any known mark. Has it gone into production yet?

2 years ago – part of the Operation Market Garden Firestorm box set. Battlefront seemed very happy with it.

But – that's really here nor there – this is a discussion about DETAIL – not details. ;-)

In that case I've got some! ;o)

Its not the details that are important to me. It is the royal pain of assembling the plastic figures, trying to cover the seams of the joints and the fact there is no weight to them. Call me old fashion, but metal until I die.

I will take hard plastic over metal every single time.

I LOVE having multi-part minis where I can make lots of variety and conversions. Their prices allow me to collect a LOT more armies and subjects than metals ever would.

Weight isn't any issue of consequence, either, because that is balanced out with a weighted base, and in unit bases, it doesn't matter anyway.

If I could find everything I wanted in hard plastic then i would never purchase a single metal mini again.

FWIW: The reason that VERY few hard plastics are produced in scales smaller than 20mm is because their is no real cost advantage to do so. You can get much better plastic detail in smaller scales, with more realistic anatomy, but the profit margin just doesn't make it worth the effort to do so, therefore metals will still be the majority in 15/18mm scales and smaller.

Respects,

Hard plastic, definitely. More detail, but less undercuts. And the convertibility is a massive bonus.

It's a matter of who's making the plastic and when they were made. It seems every succesive release gets better. Some makers are just poorer quality. Given the state of the "best" available now, I'd go plastic for the variations you can get and the much lower wight of toting around a plastic vs metal army!

Yeah if you look at some of the GW multipart kits they have a lot of detail on them. The more parts it seems like the more detail they can cram in there. It doesn't seem like plastics can hold the same detail on the sides of the figs as metal can but again if you make the torso in two parts that can eliminate some of those issues, especially with chain mail.

Well thank you all for your thoughts. NSPT's point about the difference between Detail and Undercuts explains my initial dilemma – I am certain I am seeing better definition in my plastic figures, but other painters whose work I respect appear to pooh pooh them, now I know why.

So now the hard work of the sculpter has to be married to a bit of 'sprue engineering' to get the best figure once assembled, which is why I am seeing such great figures from these manufacturers.

I think the Victrix Foot Artillery set, in particular, breaks new ground in the amount of fine detail and variety of outcome that is now available…but the pose and prescence of figures such as the Perry Zouaves just take my breath away…And theres something about the poses possible with the Victrix figures holding their muskets low across the body which evokes the way I used to hold my SLR on the rare occasions I actually saw any 'enemy' – only Orange forces or those darstadly 'Tesrodians' (From Tesrod, Dorset spelt in reverse…) They just look so natural.

The work of the Plastic Soldier Company, in the WW2 arena, I am sure will also represent a watershed in what is available, particularly in 15mm – its interesting to see that in their recent news article Battlefront are alluding to a plastic future…

But here is the thing: Anyone who has built plastic model airplanes, tanks, etc, will tell you that there is extraordinary detail available, and even in 1/72 (20mm) scale. The key is in multiple parts vice a few sections.

Additionally, there is a finite number of metal minis that can be cast from an RTV mold, whereas a rather large number of plastics can be done from a steel mold before it needs replacing.

In the end, it's personal preference and availability of specific poses/units that will drive sales. Where metal has a real advantage here is in the profitability for the manufacturer. By that I mean, some minis/units are rather rare and a player might only need a handful for his army. If it's a rather eclectic army at that, than a manufacturer will likely only sell a handful each year, if any, so he has to take that into consideration when deciding whether (or NOT!) to produce a specific item. Making a master and an RTV mold is a heck of a lot less expensive than machining a steel mold for a plastic mini.

V/R

at last an interesting question, metal i can more easily paint straps on a metal fig than a perry plastic. i combine both. my favorite range is sash & sabre.Don`t know if resin is considered a `new`medium for minis still has a way to go the ones i`ve seen

Hard Plastic.
Tony has nailed it.

Plastic. Perry Wars of the Roses and the Gripping Beast plastics are some of the nicest figures I have seen. Detail is there, ok the straps don't stick out from the body, but the plastic figures have more naturalistic ones. Weapons are in proportion and swords etc have far more detail than on most metal figures.

Main advantages for me are

1. Convertibility – no two figures in a unit are the same. BTW I actually enjoy making up the figures and trying to get variety.

2. Weight – carrying a substantial force (300 plus) plastic figures is feasible, in metal it is agony for my back.

I find that the level of detail available on soft plastic 1/72 figures made by Zvezda to be as good if not better than any metal figures in that size I have seen (and most bigger sizes too).

So I guess it is sculptor, tooling combination.

mostly b but sometimes c

Flash is easy to remove on metal. On plastic, that's much more of a pain.

Plastic require assembly. That means using putty in the gaps. Another pain.

You may prefer the multi-pose possibilities of plastic, or the thinner rifles (etc), or the lower price, but one shall always remember the pain of assembly/cleaning prior to painting.

Perry plastics are quicker to prepare than most metals, and very easy to convert; no pinning or sawing.

For me, it's about the skill of the sculptor. I like the better sculpted plastic ranges, and the better metal, equally. Have bought a lot of each this year!

Simon

I would have said metal until I painted some Perry Zouaves. The faces on those guys are frikken incredible… I've never painted a metal figure that crisp and I've done thousands.

The downside to plastic is the distortion of features and details sculpted on the side of a component, necessary in many cases to avoid an undercut. Rivets get elongated, canteen straps get wider or have a soft edge, etc.

'C' all the way.

Leigh

I only do 40K in 28mm and I prefer metal every time. I think the sculpting is just as good and metal has that undefinable 'mass' about them that plastics just don't have.

They look great until you pick them up. Plastics also need a lot more work to finish them in my experience.

Bill

some interesting comments problem with metal is repair i`ve had bayonets break & to repair is time consuming. but I`m happy with both to get a unit on the table, but metal still my fav.

I prefer the plastics for detail.

The quality of my painting is such that when the brush is finally dropped in the pot you really cant tell whether it's a metal or plastic figure sitting there.

I've made metal and plastic units. Once painted, plastic and metal have little difference, assuming the same company or sculptor.

Plastic manufacturing requires high pressure casting with hard, two piece molds. For that reason 1/72 plastics have awkward two dimensional poses. Others mentioned this above. The 25mm makers solved this by making multipiece figures on sprues. Downside is that assembly is required. I however find it no big deal.

Another plastic disadvantage is the money required to make plastic molds. This means that, outside the common troops everyone buys, you will not see the unusual armies. In other words, you will see lots of French line, but probably no Spanish grenadiers. However, this is not a problem for me. I can by those few metal figures to supplement and not break the bank.

If it means anything, the plastic was good enough for me to switch to 25mm from 15mm. You can mix plastic and metal. It is not a case of 'either or'. Plastic makes 25mm cost effective if you are willing to mix metal and plastic.

richar disney
how can you compare an unpainted plastic figure with a metal figure which has been dipped to show detail.
muppet.

It's the way the model takes the paint that's the thing for me. For whatever reason, I just find painting metals easier. The undercuts that have been mentioned are probably a big part of the reason, but how they take on the paint is another. It might be the metal is more porous, the surface 'rougher,' I'm just not sure?

I comepletely changed the undercoat I used when working with plastic and it has really helped. I still find them harder and more time consuming to paint to the highest level but I'll take that (for the most part) when you factor in pose variation and cost!

Flash is easy to remove on metal. On plastic, that's much more of a pain.

WHAT!?!?

Plastic (the hard kind at least) is SUPER EASY to get rid of flash.

You just drag a sharp X-ACTO blade over the mold-line and the flash is GONE.

With a metal figure, there is usually a ton of filing to be done, and mold lines can be far deeper due to mold-slippage.

AND…

Even when you DO have a plastic figure that has inconvenient mold-lines that are disrupting detail, just slap a little bit of putty on the line, and then shape to suit. With metal, it requires a horrendous amount of time and effort.

On soft plastic (my preferred route) it can be more tricky but a good sharp blade cures most problems.

What Alex & Marc say. Plastic is so much easier to work with than metal. There is really no contest there.

mold lines can be far deeper due to mold-slippage

Mould have big studs all the way round. They cannot slip.

Note the metal studs here:

which seat into the corresponding holes here:

(although it is possible for a mould to be misaligned in its original creation)

As the mould gets hot, or wears, you can get an increase in the amount of flash, and too little/much pressure can distort the two mould halves a little, but anything made in two halves will have some sort of line where they meet.

Another plastic disadvantage is the money required to make plastic molds. This means that, outside the common troops everyone buys, you will not see the unusual armies. In other words, you will see lots of French line, but probably no Spanish grenadiers. However, this is not a problem for me. I can by those few metal figures to supplement and not break the bank.

That is a bigger problem than you know. Your Spanish grenadiers are usually funded by the sales of bread and butter lines like French line; without those, you may find your Spanish grenadiers no longer available, or only at a much higher price than they are now…

Re Col Blanchard's comment "You may prefer the multi-pose possibilities of plastic,…. one shall always remember the pain of assembly/cleaning prior to painting."

My experience with hard plastics from Perry, Warlord, Conquest and GW is that they require little or no cleaning and assembly is very quick. Tamiya and Wargames Factory have more fiddly parts so assembly takes a bit of time.

Metals also vary a lot – Crusader, Artizan, Perry, Copplestone and Tag usually require little clean up. I have had some others with significant flash and mismatch.

Mick

While I prefer the plastics, I think it is as much a question of the quality of the mold and the original sculpt.

George, thank you for mentioning that there is no such thing as "mold slippage" I have tried to point that out so many times in the past that I gave up --Even was told that I "didn't know anything about it"
I think people get figures that did not have enough PSI or the RPM's were to high so there was some "finning/flash" and assume it is "mold slippage" ?????
If the studs are not lined up with the appropriate hole the metal just flies into the tub --but then again, what do I know ?????
Regards
Russ Dunaway

George, just read the rest of your post and once again you have hit the nail on the head --- this could be a bigger problem for the consumer then they can ever imagine? If you think OG can sell you the Berdens sharp shooters while you buy your armies in plastic and stay in the 25/28mm business-- well it just won't happen. Could be a day when there are only a couple companies to get your figs --be they plastic or metal and at whatever price they demand? I have already had some folk ask me about OG doing some certain troop types in the future to supplemrnt their plastic hordes and I told them to go back to the plastic guys?

Of course there are other scales to make and I am in my 60's so it won't bother me either way -- but there could be a day where the consumer only has several choices and they may do well to notice the big players in this trend and who they have been involved with and trained by in their careers? Sounds a little familar --HUH???
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Plastics are definitely getting better. I built up some Perry French Heavy Cavalry the other day and noticed that they're a vast improvement over their French Line. With the cav, the Perry's have gotten better at two things: hiding most of the mould lines & joins in the sculpt from view when the model is assembled (for example a horse turning it's head provides a convenient place to hide the join to the body), and the attachment of the parts to the sprue (The carabinier heads are stuck to the sprue on one place – the "neck" ball joint, safely hidden from view in the finished model.

The heavy cav box is a great impovement over the French line box (one of their first, I think). I love it that they provided extra heads for the line, but I wish now that they'd provided all the bodies without heads – cutting each model apart at the neck has resulted, for me at least, in a lot of green stuff sculpting.

Combining the Victrix foot and Perry metal line with the Perry cav was my solution. The faces of the Victrix guys are very characterful and another beautiful example of what can be done in plastic.

Also, with plastic & from many manufacturers: you get a box, with a nice inspirational cover, flags, extra bits to litter the bases with, bases, and a painting guide with an explanation of what the little guys did on their day off. You don't see that with metal too often.

Would sure be nice to buy some spanish grenadiers in a box of 18 including command, a dead horse and some gmb flags :)

…George, just read the rest of your post…

For those confused, Russ means Geoff. It's his age :-)