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"Luftwaffe Maritime operations" Topic


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Kaoschallenged Inactive Member04 Oct 2011 7:10 p.m. PST

When going through my publication collection I came upon a few dealing with Luftwaffe Maritime operations such as in the Aegean Sea and especially the Atlantic. So with some of the new releases of seaplanes in 1/600 I feel inspired to research the operations and see what kind of scenarios there could be out there. Any ideas? Robert

IainJL Inactive Member05 Oct 2011 2:03 a.m. PST

To be honest I'd look at Mal Wrights convoy rules. Whilst the focus is the convoy and submarine aspects the convoy will be hit by numerous aircraft.

Given the convoy generates its own scenarios its quite easy to play and can lend itself to solo play.

I've just invested in some Condor, Dornier, Heinkels and Junkers for the convoys in the Gibraltar Run (you do need this core set of rules to play). Mal has an Arctic Convoy supplement (golden comb torpedo strikes if the convoy is really unlucky.

It sounds like you are focussed on the aircraft so this might not be for you but the campaigns are combined arms in nature. There is a yahoo group and if you look at the WW2 Naval boards here there are some bat-reps you can follow to see if it is for you. If you do like it I also note skytrex (Davco) have some discounted convoy packs in 1/3000.

tuscaloosa05 Oct 2011 4:47 p.m. PST

Siege of Sevastapol presents lots of chances for the lone Luftwaffe anti-shipping KG in the Black Sea, together with Stuka Geschwader, to try to interdict Soviet shipping in and out of Sevastapol.

There's probably a good mini-campaign lurking in there…

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member05 Oct 2011 9:02 p.m. PST

For my 1/600 scale ships and aircraft I do have "Action Stations!" and "Coastal Command" for example. And that does sound like a good idea for a mini-campaign tuscaloosa. Robert

jowady05 Oct 2011 10:00 p.m. PST

My Father's 90mm battalion was originally sent to Iceland to provide AA defense for the British forces who refueled the escorts for the Murmansk convoys at Seyðisfjörður. They engaged several Luftwaffe aircraft, including FW200 Condors prior to their being deployed for the invasion of France. You could work up a scenario based on this

link

although my Father's story on the eventual sinking of the El Grillo was different. He said that near misses from the German bombs started several leaks and the El Grillo, with her crew ashore and unable to get up steam could not man her pumps and went down from the damage. My dad also said that the three FW200s, flying in a vic formation, were initially thought to be B-17s, as usually they only saw single German planes.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member06 Oct 2011 5:09 p.m. PST

Thanks for the link jowady. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member08 Oct 2011 2:11 p.m. PST

Here is what got me interested. Robert

LUFTWAFFE MARITIME OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR II:
THOUGHT, ORGANIZATION AND TECHNOLOGY

link

DBS30310 Oct 2011 4:37 a.m. PST

Touched on in the paper to which you linked, one option where the shipping can be abstracted is the bay of Biscay. Essentially Luftwaffe maritime recce aircraft and long range fighters (Ju88s) versus Royal Air Force maritime recce aircraft (Wellingtons, flying boats, etc) and long range fighters (Beaufighters, Mosquitoes), squabbling over U-boat movements to and from the main Atlantic area. Occasionally Germans sending out destroyers or other surface ships to try and escort damaged U-boats or surface commerce raiders / blockade runners safely into harbour.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member12 Oct 2011 3:05 p.m. PST

I agree about the Bay of Biscay engagements. There is quite a few good and unique incidents for scenarios. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member12 Oct 2011 3:06 p.m. PST

Looks like the Lock bug has hit LOL. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member12 Oct 2011 3:31 p.m. PST

The Sunderland vs. Ju-88s come to mind. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member14 Oct 2011 8:26 p.m. PST

Would anyone know of any sources for Italian,Soviet or other encounters and operations? Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member15 Oct 2011 7:29 p.m. PST

I found one. Robert

"The battle fell within the large Operation "Tiger", by which the British urgently sent 5 supply convoys from Gibraltar to Alexandria, in order to strengthen up the besieged forces commanded by General Wavell. The convoy was escorted by the carrier HMS Ark Royal, the cruisers HMS Renown and Sheffield and 9 battle destroyers. "It was May 8, 1941 when we were ordered to take off from Decimomannu and had to face off some enemy naval units that were escorting a large supply convoy". On that morning the weather was poor, with low clouds and showers. The fierce guests forced the pilots to make continuous trim corrections to maintain the right course: below the sea had a leaden look. As we approached the target, tension on board was rising. No words, only glances between the crew and the constant search for something out there, either ships or enemy fighters. "Finally, at around midday we located the enemy and immediately started to aim at a British cruiser on escort. We could not ask for a better position for an air attack: the sun on our shoulders and the naval artillery that was not even firing a single shot". "We descended to lower altitudes but as the crew was activating the pointing device and dropped the first bomb, our target suddenly changed its course to the left. It is unnecessary to say that our bomb splashed heavily into the water! From that moment on, the enemy artillery unleashed all their fire mouths! There were explosions everywhere around us and from the initial formation of five, only two of us managed to come back to the base. We were also attacked on our way back when a lonely Hurricane spotted us and repeatedly shot enraged bursts that fortunately missed our aircraft for no more than 5 meters. Then I immediately diverted my plane into a large and thick formation of clouds after having dropped the remaining bombs: this maneuver meant our salvation". On that day, a Fairey Fulmar piloted by Nigel George "Buster" and accompanied by the Australian observer Sir Victor Alfred Tumper Smith managed to shot down the S-79 of Captain Armando Boetto, who perished in the incident with the rest of the crew. During the clashes, the Fulmar was also heavily hit by the Italian gunners and was forced to splashdown into the water, where his crew was later rescued by the Royal Navy. Indeed, in honor of Captain Armando Boetto, the 32° Stormo of Italian Air Force is currently named after him. "

link

Jemima Fawr16 Oct 2011 6:17 a.m. PST

Two superb battles that I've replayed using CY6 are the engagement between a single RAF Sunderland Mk 1 with six Ju-88A off Norway in 1940 and a similar engagement between a RAAF Sunderland Mk III (supplemented with .50 cal waist guns) and eight Ju-88C over the Bay of Biscay in 1943.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member16 Oct 2011 2:10 p.m. PST

I remember that from the "Looking for unusual scenarios" thread. Robert
TMP link

Jemima Fawr17 Oct 2011 7:53 a.m. PST

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that thread. Since then I've played out those engagements and they're a blast! :)

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member19 Oct 2011 7:54 p.m. PST

LOL I'm glad to hear. I had collected a few over the years. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member23 Oct 2011 1:33 a.m. PST

In June 1942 a Italian RO.43 during the attack on the Harpoon convoy was shot down by a Bristol Beaufighter from Malta .

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member24 Oct 2011 1:52 a.m. PST

And the Z.506 in WWII. Robert

"The type had its baptism of fire on 17 June 1940, the day after some French bombers had attacked Elmas base, killing 21 airmen and destroying some Cant. Z.501s."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.506

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member24 Oct 2011 1:23 p.m. PST

On the night of 8 Feb 1944 a Mosquito of No. 157 Squadron shot down a BV 222 SW of Biscarosse . Robert

DBS30325 Oct 2011 3:22 a.m. PST

Of course, there are also the clashes between Adrian Warburton (Maryland recce) and various Italian flying boats during the Malta campaign.

rchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.operations.mod.uk/onthisday/newsItem_id=2207.htm

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member27 Oct 2011 6:34 p.m. PST

link

"Short Sunderland Mark I, L5807 DQ-R, of No. 228 Squadron RAF, on fire and sinking while moored at Kalafrana, Malta, following an attack by German fighter Messerschmitt Bf 109s of 7/JG26 ("The Abbeville Boys"). According the Imperial War Museum the photograph was taken by Group Captain Livock from his office window at RAF Kalafrana. Year 1941. Victor Sierra "

link


link

"From official caption of IWM: Short Sunderland Mark I, L2164 DQ-M, of No. 228 Squadron RAF, on fire in St Paul's Bay, Malta after being shot up for a second time by Messerschmitt Bf 109s of 7/JG26. L2164, already damaged from the previous attack on 7 March 1941, ultimately sank after efforts to tow her ashore failed. Victor Sierra "

link

DBS30328 Oct 2011 5:27 a.m. PST

Don't forget that Malta was also home for a while to at least one of the ex-RNoAF He115s used for agent running into N Africa.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member28 Oct 2011 2:35 p.m. PST

I was going to mention that one next LOL. And it too was destroyed in a raid on Malta 1941 in an Italian air raid. Though Wiki says it was two Luftwaffe Me-109s. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member29 Oct 2011 10:37 a.m. PST

There was also the encounters between RAF Fighters and Luftwaffe He-59 "rescue" seaplanes. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member29 Oct 2011 11:27 p.m. PST

11 Jul 1940 "Off the coast of Kent, a German rescue seaplane escorted by 12 Bf 109 fighters was shot down by the British while en route to rescue downed German airmen; 2 of the 6 Spitfire fighters and 2 of the 12 Bf 109 fighters were also lost."

link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member30 Oct 2011 1:38 p.m. PST

Some Video :). Robert

link
link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member30 Oct 2011 1:41 p.m. PST

Condor attack. Robert

link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member30 Oct 2011 1:53 p.m. PST

Norway. Robert
youtu.be/P-Zf5Myr_rA

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member02 Nov 2011 12:55 p.m. PST

Soviet seaplane attack on a sub. Robert
YouTube link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member03 Nov 2011 3:21 p.m. PST

"Six Ro.43 launched from light cruisers played a role in spotting the British fleet during the battle of Calabria, in the opening rounds of the war.[4] One of them, departing from the cruiser Eugenio di Savoia, kept visual contact with the battleship HMS Warspite during the exchange of fire between the British capital ship and the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare before being chased off by a Sea Gladiator from the carrier HMS Eagle.[5]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.43

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member10 Nov 2011 7:21 p.m. PST

I also would like to know if the ANR or ACI operated Maritime aircraft after the Italian armistice. Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member13 Nov 2011 8:39 p.m. PST

Now this one would be a very interesting scenario to game
Luftwaffe versus the Kriegsmarine. Robert

Operation Wikinger
link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member15 Nov 2011 4:19 p.m. PST

So? Anyone know if the ANR or ACI operated Maritime aircraft after the Italian armistice? Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member19 Nov 2011 6:15 p.m. PST

Did the Italians use any Sea or Floatplanes in East Africa? Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member22 Nov 2011 6:44 p.m. PST

Air-Sea Rescue Service of the Luftwaffe in World War II, by Carl Hess. Robert

PDF link

PDF link

DBS30323 Nov 2011 8:27 a.m. PST

I don't believe there were any Italian seaplanes in East Africa – certainly no mention in Sutherland and Canwell's "Air War East Africa." The S81s of 10 Squadriglia may have had a maritime reconnaissance role, since a naval officer, Franchini, won a posthumous Gold Medal after the aircraft in which he was an observer was shot down over the sea by a Wellesley off the Eritrean coast.

(There is an unusual scenario for you – Wellesley vs S81… The Wellesley's fixed MG jammed during the initial attack and the Italian was finished off by the rear gunner.)

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member28 Nov 2011 1:40 p.m. PST

Thanks again DBS303. I may have to add that encounter to the thread :). Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member28 Nov 2011 4:07 p.m. PST

Fi-167

picture

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member01 Dec 2011 7:16 p.m. PST

Just picked up a copy of Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Aircraft and Operations in World War II by Harold Thiele. has anyone read it and what do you think? Robert

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member04 Dec 2011 1:30 p.m. PST

Here it is on Amazon. Robert
"This fascinating book offers a rare account into the operations of the Luftwaffe's aerial torpedo units during World War II. Often overlooked, the crews who flew in these units were highly trained and experienced and their missions involved hazardous flying against difficult and well-defended maritime targets.Harold Thiele has researched this field for many years. Before providing a detailed diary of Luftwaffe torpedo operations, he explores the origins of the aerial torpedo and offers a comparative study of its development in Germany, Britain, the USA, Italy and Japan from World War I until the outbreak of World War II. The body of the book comprises a detailed chronological diary of operations mounted off the English coast, in the Atlantic, the Mediterranean, off North Africa and in the Black Sea by the Ju 88s, He 111s, He 177s, and Ar 95s (etc.) of Luftwaffe's torpedo units, such as KG 26, KG 77 and the various floatplane-equipped Staffeln which also undertook such operations. Supplemented by color artwork, target listings, aircraft and torpedo types, units and all ships known to have been sunk or damaged by aerial torpedo attack, this work will ber an indispensable reference for modelers & researchers."
link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member06 Dec 2011 12:16 p.m. PST

This seems interesting,

"The "FW-190A-5/U14" and "FW-190A-5/U15" were both torpedo-bombers with an extended tailwheel to provide ground clearance for the torpedo. There was a similar modification, the "FW-190F-8/R15", for carriage of an odd munition known as the "BT-1400 torpedo bomb". The BT-1400 weighed 1,400 kilograms (3,090 pounds), and looked much more like a bomb than a torpedo, with a long tapered nose, three tailfins (including a folding bottom fin to permit ground clearance), and no propeller.

It's unclear if these FW-190 modifications saw much service, though it appears that late in the war the Luftwaffe special-operations group, KG-200, used FW-190s carrying BTs in operations against the Soviets. There are also stories of such long-tailwheel aircraft carrying SC-1800 1,800 kilogram (3,970 pound) bombs, if with great difficulty and stripped of everything that could be removed. They were apparently used to try to destroy the Remagen bridge over the Rhine, seized by the Allies in early 1945, but with no success.

The BT series of munitions were also built in 200 kilogram (440 pound), 400 kilogram (880 pound), and 700 kilogram (1,540 pound) versions. They were unpowered, their shape having been designed to allow the bomb to remain on its drop trajectory even after it entered the water. A special bombsight was fitted to allow the pilot to drop the weapon so that it would shoot underneath a vessel and explode, it seems using a delayed-action fuze. The BT bombs could also be used for attacks on ground targets. "
vectorsite.net/avfw190.html

Robert

Jemima Fawr06 Dec 2011 12:51 p.m. PST

I don't think I've ever seen the Fi-167 before…

That is one seriously fugly aircraft! And to think we used to get embarrassed about parking a Jet Provost alongside fast jets. Fi-167 crew must have been issued with masks.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member06 Dec 2011 1:07 p.m. PST

Here is a little info I have found on it. Robert

"Designed as a carrier based torpedo bomber, the Fi 167 proved to be a superb aircraft for the task but unfortunately the task never materialized with the abandonment of the Graf Zeppelin. Surpassing its nearest rival, the Ar 195, in every catagory, the Fi 167 proved to be an amazing aircraft. One notable demonstration showed the types excellent low speed performance when Fiesler himself sank the Fi 167 from 9,800 ft. to 100 ft. while remaining stationary over one spot while retaining full control.
Twelve A-0 series aircraft followed the prototype, but without a carrier were delegated to coastal patrol duties in the Netherlands from 1940-1943 before eventually being sold to Romania"

link

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member06 Dec 2011 2:22 p.m. PST

What I find odd is that the info quoted above states that the Fi 167 was eventually sold to Romania. I have seen drawings of it in both Slovak and Yugoslavian (Partisans) service. Robert

Jemima Fawr06 Dec 2011 10:59 p.m. PST

It's still fugly :o)

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member07 Dec 2011 12:14 p.m. PST

"It's still fugly :o)"

It is that for sure LOL. Robert

picture

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member08 Dec 2011 1:34 p.m. PST

"Luftwaffe Torpedo Operations 1936-40.

The first operation use of airborne torpedoes by the Luftwaffe was in the Spanish Civil War. From mid 1936 a small number of Heinkel He 59 seaplanes served with the Seeflieger Gruppe AS/88 of the Condor Legion, operating from the island of Majorca. This unit was operational until the spring of 1939, and during this time launched a number of airborne torpedoes in combat. However due to problems with the LT F5 torpedo only one was successful. An attack on the British merchant ship Thropeness (4,700 GRT) which on the night of 21st July 1938 was entering the Spanish port of Valencia loaded with grain. At the time it was claimed by the Spanish Nationalists that this ship had been sunk by a mine.

By the start of WW2, the Seeflieger possessed 30 operational He 59s in four Staffeln. At this time the He 115 was starting to come into service, but due to the fragility of the LT F5 torpedo it couldn't be carried, as the He 115 couldn't fly slow enough, without stalling, to release the LT F5 torpedo successfully.
From October 1939 the few He 59s flew a limited number of torpedo operations against Allied shipping, but the only success recorded by He 59s using torpedoes in WW2 was the sinking of the British fishing steamer, Active (185 GRT) on the 18 December 1939.

In March 1940 with technical improvements to the LT F5 torpedo (including a new rudder) the He 115 was made operational with this torpedo, replacing the He 59 in the role, though the torpedo was still far from satisfactory, as it still required the He 115 to fly as slow and low as it possibly could, and even then failures were common.
Over the next few months due to limited available supplies of the torpedo (135 in March) few operations were undertaken.
In July 1940 the only operational airborne torpedo Staffel ready for action was 3/Ku.Fl.Gr 506 based at Stavanger, to be followed by 1./Ku.Fl.Gr 106 from mid August based at Norderney

From August as other He 115 torpedo attack units became operational, combat sorties increased though the limited number of torpedoes available was always a problem ( in September the figure was down to 38 at one point)
The first successes of the He 115 units may have been the sinking of Llanishen (5,035 GRT) and the Makalla (6,680 GRT) of Convoy CA 203 in the Moray Firth on the 23 August 1940, but some sources put their loss down to bombs not torpedoes.
The first confirmed success of He 115 torpedo bombers was the sinking of the Remuera (11,445 GRT) by Ku.Fl.Gr 506 on the 26 August 1940.

Over the next 4 months until the end of the year the Luftwaffe used about 160 airborne torpedoes in operations against British shipping in Northern waters, Luftwaffe claims were high (one unit alone, 3./Ku.Fl.Gr 506 was credited with sinking 124,000 GRT) but when checked against British losses, Luftwaffe torpedo bombers probably sank a total of 7 or 8 Allied merchant ships of around 50-60,000 GRT in 1940.


During this period there were attempts to use both the He 111 and Ju 88 in the torpedo bomber role, but due to problems with inter service rivalry, and the LT F5 torpedo, none became operational in 1940, though the He 111 did become operational as a torpedo bomber in early 1941.

Source for the facts and figures used in this article"
Robert

Mako1109 Dec 2011 3:22 a.m. PST

Recon, level bombing, dive bombing, torpedo and strafing attacks, and controlling smart bombs via wire, and presumably radio.

Pick your preferred style of attack, and then select the plane(s) suitable for them. Plenty to choose from.

Do-17's with wire-guided bombs should be great fun, especially against larger targets.

Kaoschallenged Inactive Member13 Dec 2011 2:57 a.m. PST

picture

I could use my He-177s with the Fritz X. Robert

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