"New Company Looking for Ideas" Topic

Hey folks.

Mad Robot Miniatures is a new company I've started and I'm trying to get input from gamers in different scales about what they are looking for. I am unfamiliar with any 15mm rules or games so I am curious about 2 major things…

1)What rules/systems are popular amongst 15mm?
2)What types of figures are people looking for in 15mm these days? What's lacking?

Thanks for any input your willing to give.

Steve
MadRobotMiniatures.com

For 15mm Sci-fi rules wise there is a lot of buzz about Ambush Alley's Force on Force/Tomorrow's War, and Gruntz seem to be the hot games at the moment. Star Grunt is an old favorite that gets a lot of air time and respect too. Some other popular systems are also 5150 Star Army/New Hope City (when it comes out), Flying Lead, Future War Commander, and Fast and Dirty Skirmish (FAD).

Miniatures wise- drops ships are sorely lacking as are Aliens style Colonial Marines (with support weapons! and drones) or other hard sci-fi backgrounds, and Powered Armor. Plus a number of 15mm folks want to see more "aliens"- technic races. Also, aerospace fighters to provide fire support would be nice too!

I'm sure there are other gaps in the 15mm line-up as well.

"1)What rules/systems are popular amongst 15mm?
.2)What types of figures are people looking for in 15mm these days? What's lacking?"

That is saying a mouthful Steve.

You will get a variety of answers but in the end I would say that you should start with a subject matter that means something to you.

Focus on that at first and then at least at the end of the initial process you will have something that fulfills a measure of you in miniature.

I personally would not worry about a particular rule set at this point.

There are a bunch of interesting 15mm projects going on right now and to find a certain lacking niche is not going to be as rewarding as making something that means something to you, IMO.

Just a thought, good luck to you and your endeavors.

Futuristic looking starship crew figures, for boarding actions – no one does them.

Think Star Trek, Star Wars, the old TV show UFO, etc. Basically, comfortable, jogging-suit style uniforms.

I like FUBAR for 15mm rules an would like to see civilians both human and alien. Agree about the TV and Film type figures.

Raymond aka 28mmMan sums things up nicely above.

I say that if you are serious rather than just using this as a means to generate interest in your new endeavour, and coming to the party with your own ideas, then I suggest you look through the messages on not only this board but the Sci Fi board. You should etend your search back over the last two years, see what people were asking for and whether the many companies now in the 15mm Sci Fi market have actually fulfilled those wishes.

I also recommend visiting manufacturer forums and the dedicated 15mm Sci Fi blogs. See what people are posting- what are they actually buying and raving about.

Thats where I would start.

To me the question is not just about style of figures – but character, poses, animation and having enough figures to fill out at least a platoon, but without having the same gdamn pointy sergeant and same gunner in every squad.

There are still niches waiting to be filled. There's still gaps in the mainstream that can be addressed.

Why not just rely on the response to this thread? Well apparently we need more Alien movie style Marines – really? They'll have to be better than these that were released only this week: TMP link and what Jon might have up his sleeve. Plus Khurasan is also releasing two impressive dropships in the immediate future.

Best of luck and I hope you find the info you are looking for.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Mad Robot, check this
link

Thanks for the flurry of responses. My first offering is being sculpted as I write this. It is a squad of 30mm Neo-Germanic" greatcoat troops. The squad will include 10 unique poses and include a sgt.

I say all this to point out that I am "coming to the party with my own ideas". The above mentioned figures are something I've wanted to see happen for quite a while.

Concerning rule sets, I am trying to get an idea of what people are looking for, beyond the visual. I want to learn more about the make up of armies for various rules so I can create for a need that is there.

As for a business approach, knowing what your potential customers are looking for is essential. It's what makes you a business and not a personal project that never succeeds. Trust me, I'm passionate about miniatures. Otherwise I would not have invested as much time, effort, and money as I have over the last few months. It gets frustrating because people seem to be unwilling to give any input but then they tend to be critical of what is released and say "if only they would have done…"

Lastly, I will definitely be checking out previous threads for people's comments. It certainly doesn't hurt have a thread of my own so people can offer suggestions.

Thanks again!

@Gunner Dunbar: I follow the blog but I haven't dug deep enough to see that post. Thanks!

@Mad Robot – the best thing you can do is be an open book concerning rules. There is no "one rules to unite them all" when it comes to 15mm sci fi. some of us play small skirmishes of 10-20 individually-based infantry per side… some play 100-200 individually-based per side plus a dozen or more vehicles. And some multi-base their infantry, 2-5 per stand.

Your greatcoats will probably be pretty successful in 28mm, but at 15mm they won't be much different than the HOF Post Apocalyptic warriors that are already available. When it comes to infantry – please provide something aesthetically different than what is currently available. You'll find the most support if you follow the basic principle of plenty of basic infantry, some support weapons, and a command figure or two per force. The individual gamer will determine how to use them, but 99% of us will want that sort of variety.

For aliens – you can follow a similar principle, but you might be successful if you go with something other than humanoid poses.

Chris K.

More good thoughts, but as I was thinking the range of input stretches beyond an easy to pin point thought.

Weirdo aliens are always appreciated but I would give a second thought to making this a first release or focus line…I am sure that standard human type out sell and are thus more popular as a whole.

But this is going to be a fence that few sit on but many will fall on either side.

The idea of 15mm great coats sounds good to me. You have the right idea to include multiple poses and an NCO…add a troop level special/heavy weapons figure and you would have a complete unit…good thoughts.

And if they are complementary to an existing line, well that means a great coat player would have options and the ability to mix and match, creating a much larger force with options.

In 15mm it seems that a particular detail will carry through due to the small size…gas masks, unique helmet, rayguns, etc. This is where a familiar look like the great coats can shine IMO. The great coat is an instant ID alone, add the gas masks and you have an instant weird world war II look; which may be something you want or may want to avoid.

But a clean uncluttered great coats (without huge shoulder pads please…please…please) I suspect will do well.

A unique tech element might go a long way…back pack mounted power supplies for energy weapons for example…jet/grav packs might be nice making them all jump troops…etc.

You are new to TMP and will find that most everyone will be happy to give you opinions, take these as you would any group survey…with a grain of salt and use what you can.

Once the miniatures are seen in greens or WIP then you will get a more focused and helpful stream of data…I know, it could be too late for some designs at that point, but I do not think that is the case here.

A clean design that everyone knows is a good plan…but like any simple process/design it needs to be focused or the expectations will be lost.

Make the coats make sense.

Keep the weapons within reasonable scale/size.

And provide options for poses and weapons.

Best of luck and success with your efforts.

PS
And have a thick skin for the interaction process, some TMPers can be a bit pushy, aggressive, and even unrelenting in their opinions…me included :)

For the most part the guys play well here, but once in a while the bullies stop by or forget to take their meds, so be prepared for an odd response or series of comments every now and then :)

The key thing here is that it is impossible to know what your customers want. Wargamers as a group are insanely schizophrenic when it comes to what they want, what they'll buy, and what they're willing to pay for, and the 15mm sci-fi subset is perhaps even more so.

That being said, as clkeagle mentions, there are certain base expectations (especially since the initial 15mm sci-fi base has tended towards the hard sci-fi to Traveller-esque space opera) of unified forces following a standard formula of basic infantry with rifles and SAWs, support weapons, and command figures. There are few gamers, if any, that will be using them for their intended purpose as suggested by their backstory, so make them with that in mind. Also, while the 15mm sci-fi crowd has vocal components that say they want weird stuff, it doesn't sell. Rubber suit aliens and mid to high-tech humans with the odd sprinkling of weird are the order of the day.

Your greatcoats will probably be pretty successful in 28mm, but at 15mm they won't be much different than the HOF Post Apocalyptic warriors that are already available.

You mean these?

Not a lot of variety there, with only three sculpts. I think someone else could come along with a more military version, more uniform, etc. and do good work with it.

I cannot add much more to Raymond and Mark and the others.

What I will do is back up the sentiment that a rules set is not important or needed for 15mm. There are people who use the same forces with a number of different rules depending on the type of game they want or what group they are playing with.

Best I could suggest for your minis is try to offer something that the market doesn't already have in spades. Find a niche and do it well. Do not ignore popular media (movies, video games, TV, comics, etc.) for inspiration but if you do draw from those, try to find media that hasn't received much if any support.

Another thing to consider is the reflection of warfare in your figures. So many manufacturers are still dressing WW2 fighters in scifi gear. Warfare has changed much and signifigantly in just in the last few decades.

-Eli

All good robust advice above.

The long and short is that Sci Fi is a broad church. There are a wide number of influences from books to TV, film, RPGs and rules to, more recently console games. All over and above the gamers own imagination.

However there are common themes. You cant anticipate all tastes but you can narrow down the most popular.

Cheers
Mark

@Tgunner
I'd agree if Khurasan didn't come out with them pretty much yesterday…

@Mad Robot
Dropship Horizon actually brought this up yesterday, what gaps they see in the market. In my mind it might as well have been them answering your question a day ahead of time ;)

link

Now between us I'd avoid "Yet another near future tech human space army" unless you can make them look different. Everyone builds them, all of them look almost the same. Yours are good because it would be good for the lower tech space armies and Post Apoch, but know when to not over do yourself. Just make sure not to build something already available from 15 other manufacturers because you'll be competing with them for sales.

I'd look into aliens, and some droids, and terrain. Maybe a standing and seated evil overlord figure. Some men in tunics and knee boots with blasters and scanners along with their female companions in miniskirts… (you know, Not-Trek). Odd looking aliens in poses enough for armies. Some droids. Consoles and other piece of every day terrain.

Look at what others are doing, then find the gaps in the market, things that are unrepresented or under represented, and try and fill a couple of them. Like they say on Dropship… BIRD ALIENS alone would be something unique!

Maybe rather than going for Halo like most people are going for in style, think more Trek, Star Wars, and maybe Flash Gorden. Between you and me, a line of Weird War II/Alien Fighter Late 40s/Early 50s US army could be interesting… There are already Sci-fi germans and grey aliens for them to do battle with…

For inspiration, check the UFO series of games. Good ideas there for heavy infantry, aliens, mutants, weapons and UGVs.

Though, it's my opinion that a sort of 'build your own' UGV pack would be awesome. Should have a main chasis geared for a specialist purpose, then depending on that purpose, mounting points for weapons and weapons to choose from. For mobility, it should have options for a few different walker types(Biped-Reverse knee joint, spider, quadruped.) wheeled and tracked. Weapons, obviously a mix of mid-tech projectile weapons, missiles, rockets and higher tech energy weapons.

I figure it would be easier to pull off in 15mm than in 28mm. In 28mm, ideally it would have to be a plastic kit, but in 15mm, use of metal parts could make it so that it's available as say… a legs kit, a chassis kit and a weapons kit so people can use any of them for conversion projects as well.

This is a hard one since I have a large mishmash of 15 mm scifi. Another line of scifi humans is going to be a hard sell for me unless its something that is not available already, example 40K marines in 15mm… or something so cool I have to have it.

Vehicles we are spoiled for choices in tanks, APCs and AFVs. I know others will disagree with me but I doubt I will ever collect every vehicle available on the market.

What I would like to see in 15mm vehicles…

1. Ogre / Bolo

2 Fast reaction force armor, tankettes, light APCs something that says airborne deployable. Not heavy enough to duke it out with a Khurasan Siler but might be able to hold its own against a Banner series tank.

3. Urban Demolition Vehicle, heavily armored with flamethrowers and a large caliber assault gun. Should also have a bull dozer blade and reactive armor.

Hey thanks guys. I am truly blown away by the input. I've been looking for this kind of reaction for quite a while and I'm glad you are willing to contribute. I think I'll put together a master list of ideas and keep it posted on the Mad Robot Blog for reference.

I had originally thought of focusing on 28mm at first but there seems to be some merit in looking at 15mm sooner. There are some design challenges, as indicated in the above comments, but it's great to know there are so many people who are hungry for good minis.

I'll do my best, it won't happen overnight but I promise to consider all the input I can get.

@Mark- "Why not just rely on the response to this thread? Well apparently we need more Alien movie style Marines – really? They'll have to be better than these that were released only this week: TMP link and what Jon might have up his sleeve. Plus Khurasan is also releasing two impressive dropships in the immediate future."

Wow… what a snarky comment Mark. Were you intending it to come out this way or is this an example of a text post coming across rougher than intended?

The OOP asked for suggestions and that's what I gave him. And judging from the post you linked, and a conversation I participated in, there's a real demand for the things! Also, Jon is on the fence about whether or not to expand this line. Right now it's even less than what QRF offers in their Deep Space Marines. So that's two ranges and neither have "spot on" supporting weapons and vehicles.

I would say that there's room for another… unlike the two kagillion US Army WWII in Western Europe ranges (yawn) that are out there.

@Psyckosama: "I'd agree if Khurasan didn't come out with them pretty much yesterday…"

Good point but Jon said that this range is going to be limited to this batch unless there's demand to expand it. Who knows if that'll happen. Right now the range only covers 9 different figures with a very basic weapons layout.

There's nothing really new here except it's Khurasan and Jon's level of quality (which is top notch). QRF already does these guys in their Deep Space Marines range and Geoff has quite a few figures that Jon doesn't have: dead marines, civvies, an armed civie, several officer and NCO types who are armed, etc.

So what would have happened if Jon at Khurasan posted this, someone responded like I did, and other posters jumped in and said "It's already been done by QRF"? A good chance that we wouldn't have Jon in the fray with a fresh batch of CMs.

There's room for another range I'm sure.

@Tgunner – I would agree with Mark in regard to there be better things to explore than another range of Colonial Marines.

Khurasan made no indication that he was on the fence regarding an expansion. He simply said that sales will dictate whether or not it got sold. Considering the initial production run sold out the week it came out, I think that's a good sign.

QRF's version are aged and a bit lacking, so when you say the ONLY thing that Khurasan's version have is Jon's quality, that is actually saying quite a bit. Jon's quality is unquestionably high.

Also, a line of miniatures does not have to be self-contained and include all the bells and whistles. Just because Khurasan will likely stick to the soldirs, there are plenty of good quality civvies with GZG and even some of the old Traveller figs who stand up pretty well despite their age.

To bring this all together, as far as advice for a newcomer goes, I think the point is to look to areas that have not been done, and done again. We do not need another company hitting the ground running with Colonial Marines or even more mid-tech troops of any kind.

The market is right for change and innovation if a company is willing to do so. I would argue that you could even present something new without needing to amp up the level of detail or anything. Really you could use the same level of detail, simply applied differently.

-Eli

Sorry Eli, I completely disagree with you as well. I think there is plenty of room for more Mid-tech figures and more, good quality ones, are needed. Beyond GZG, Rebel Minis, and Khurasan there really arn't very many ranges out there. How does that stack with say 15mm Late War US? And most of the variety comes from GZG, but Rebel Minis is closing the gap. However there's still plenty of room for more mid-techs.

"Khurasan made no indication that he was on the fence regarding an expansion. He simply said that sales will dictate whether or not it got sold."

Sorry Eli, but that is very much sitting on the fence. He isn't going all out to the range, he's just making one pack and then seeing if the fish are biting before he goes all out. That's a smart move really, but that's also NOT fully committing too!

But I do agree with you on the sales aspect, that's great news! So the chances are maybe good that Jon will go and fully support this range.

"Also, a line of miniatures does not have to be self-contained and include all the bells and whistles. "

Difference of opinion there as well. Call me a purist but I don't like mixing a lot of different ranges into a single army. Each range, almost by definition here, is from a different sculptor and you wind up with all sorts of "odd" stuff. One range is really short and stout, and other really tall and skinny. Some with clam shell helmets and another with kevlar types. Some people don't mind the oddities and it's very effective with irregular forces. Not so much with a single national force. I want a COMPLETE range here and right now one doesn't exist and it won't exist unless someone does it.

"QRF's version are aged and a bit lacking,"

Indeed, and that is the essence of my argument. The sculpts are decent and the range is okay but it's lacking in quality (compared to Khurasan) and in scope.

"so when you say the ONLY thing that Khurasan's version have is Jon's quality, that is actually saying quite a bit. Jon's quality is unquestionably high."

Indeed, you're correct here. I think everyone agrees with the quality from Khurasan. But you're also missing my point. Right now Khurasan's range is incomplete and doesn't offer anything new to not-Colonial Marine figures except quality. I can get two packs of QRF minis, for a bit more $$, and get more figures than Khurasan's pack AND have more and different sculpts. But, again, this range is very much lacking too: no plasma cannons, no RPGs, no LAWs, no snipers, no crew-served weapons of any sort, and no AFVs (except that mystery APC that is part of the range?). All you get, from either Khurasan or QRF, is some basic poses and weapons. I can make a rifle platoon out of it but not a coherent "army".

So to sum it up, the Colonial Marine range hasn't been covered in any real depth and it would make for a great starting point for a new company that wants to make a great splash in the 15mm.

So we agree to disagree.

TGunner,

Every point you insist on making is contrary to a sustainable and practical business model.

A company's decission to no go "all in" does not mean they are not willing to support the range. But I'd rather see them feel it out and succede rather than throw a Hail Mary and have it fall flat, wasting time and resources. But I would hardly call waiting to see how initial sales go, "sitting on the fence".

You purist miniatures ideals are also impractical. None of the 15mm producers are really big enough to do it all. You limitation is something you may just have to live with. I wouldn't expect a miniatures company to cater to my every whim just because I(you) have a hangup about mixing figs. If the armor doesn't match, don't put them in the same force.

What does all of this have to do with the OP? Reality. Your expectations are not realistic TGunner. Given time, I am sure that Khurasan, or any company, will expand any of their lines that does well, but they are not going to do if it doesn't sell. Maybe you have thousands of dollars laying around to fritter away on dreams and fantasies, but they are business men.

Do I think there is room for speculation in the market and for companies to take some risk now and again? Yes!

But I think it should be calculated risk that draws from trends that have been established as winners (HALO, Mass Effect, Dead Space, Scifi Movies, TV, etc).

-Eli

"Every point you insist on making is contrary to a sustainable and practical business model."

Err, Eli. I'm not giving him a business model. I'm answering his question about what people want and holes that exist that gamers, like me perhaps, would like to see filled. AKA- I'm answering the original question of the post!

"You purist miniatures ideals are also impractical. None of the 15mm producers are really big enough to do it all. You limitation is something you may just have to live with."

What? Are you serious? Most smart and successful miniatures companies have COMPLETE ranges that people want. Rebel Minis has complete ranges with basic troops, support weapons, command, vehicles, etc etc. GZG has complete ranges (more than I care to think of really!),as does Khurasan. It's the UNSUCCESSFUL companies that release bits and drabs and see what sticks which is what you're arguing if you're disagreeing with me.

Also I'm not asking any company to cater specifically what I need. He asked the question about what people want and I've heard a lot of TMPers say that they want Colonial Marines.. heck, look at the thread Dropship Horizon mentioned! TMPer after TMPer chimed in that this was what they wanted and that they were in! Heck, Jon said he SOLD OUT of the things when I placed my order and that I would have to wait a bit before he could fill my order.

People, beyond me Eli, want these figures because they ARE Colonial Marines and I would hazard a bet that they want to see the range completed with command, support weapons, and a vehicle or two.

How is this "contrary to a sustainable and practical business model"??? Anyone in business, or that has a business background, will tell you that you sell what sells and you supply the demands that are out there. There is a high demand out there for these type of miniatures because there is a dire lack of supply!

I think we may be arguing the same point in different terms.

It does seem that you expect things to be instantaneous and somehow see Jon's initial offering, barely a week, old as somehow lacking.

It is this sort of apparent sentiment that makes your posting seem unrealistic. Also, my commentary regarding the realism of your requests is more for the OP's benefit than any attempt to sway your arguement.

-Eli

Perhaps. You're aguing business models and I'm pointing out demands for certain products.

*shrugs*

I think they are related. Very few businesses can do it all, especially in the low profit world of gaming.

-Eli

"It does seem that you expect things to be instantaneous and somehow see Jon's initial offering, barely a week, old as somehow lacking."

I don't expect things to be instantaneous. I've been collecting my 15mm CMC force for over three years now and it's all QRF because that is all there is and that range is incomplete at best. Khurasan's initial batch is great news to me, and many others who want to collect CMCs, because it offers the hope that there will be a line of "spot-on" miniatures to cover that gap. And it's not that Khurasan's offering is "lacking", it's that it's incomplete and there is the chance that it will remain that way. Until Khurasan covers that gap it will exist. Simple reality really.

The OP asked for what people wanted and I answered. I'm sure that I'm not alone by any stretch of the imagination.

"It is this sort of apparent sentiment that makes your posting seem unrealistic. Also, my commentary regarding the realism of your requests is more for the OP's benefit than any attempt to sway your arguement."

Maybe. But you're not being fair to my request either, which isn't unrealistic by any stretch. Heck, again, the thread that Dropship linked to shows that. People want the range that Jon is offering because they are VERY good proxies to the Colonial Marines for the movie Aliens. There is a real, undeniable, demand for that particular product.

Yes, some people probably yawned and groaned that here's yet, another, mid-tech, Colonial Marine take-off. But plenty, like me, cheered and placed their order. Scoff all you want, but it's a real demand because of a real lack of supply. It's an itch that a lot more than me want scratched. And the dern things didn't fly off Jon's shelf because they were just another batch of mid-techs- they sold because they were Colonial Marines.

Like I said. I'm not offering a business model. I'm answering the OP's original question about what TMPers are looking for.

I bought some of the new marines. But I hardly see how it is fair of you to call the line incomplete when it just released its first offering. As for the chances that it will remain incomplete, isn't this true for any range of miniatures until it isn't?

This is where I find your response, if not unrealistic then a bit knee-jerk.

Let me ask this, and perhaps we can both offer, in way of your answer, somethign of use to the OP other than our difference of opinion.

How would Khurasan's release have more satisfied your desires/demands?

-Eli

"1)What rules/systems are popular amongst 15mm?
.2)What types of figures are people looking for in 15mm these days? What's lacking?"

That is saying a mouthful Steve.

You will get a variety of answers but in the end I would say that you should start with a subject matter that means something to you"

*****

See? Mad Robot this is what I was saying…people can get a bit hot blooded over their little metal men :)

Without making it personal, I think there is good information throughout the above posts.

There are notes about weirdo aliens; I like weirdos quite a bit…a thought, if you want to offer weirdos than offer a complete set not just the Lone Gunman.

There are notes about vehicles, drop ships, etc…I would say leave this alone at this stage of the process as there are several guys bringing out vehicles on a regular basis…I would recommend a bit of focus, don't get distracted.

There have been notes about common themes (Aliens and Colonial Marines for example)…I would read between the lines…honestly any line that is complete (troopers, NCOs, special/heavy weapons) will be welcomed as long as the sculpts are not poo.

If you are going to produce a line, then produce a line…not a couple guys.

I fall back on my earlier advice…make what you want to see made…it is your effort, your money, and your risk…make the best of your shot and hopefully you will be satisfied with the results.

Let the opinions fall where they may…if the line is complete and looks good then you will see some sales.

Have a great weekend.

"I bought some of the new marines. But I hardly see how it is fair of you to call the line incomplete when it just released its first offering."

Perhaps it is unfair, but it's true none-the-less. With this pack you get a single section of marines which can build up to a platoon but no supporting weapons or specalists. Also, Jon made it very clear on the thread that the line wouldn't be expanded unless this batch sold well. That probably turned people off. And as you pointed out, beggers can't be choosers! I took what was offered and was grateful for it because they will be nicer sculpts than QRF and because there is a chance that there might, perhaps, be more than just them and a somewhat close APC. Granted though, I prefer Khurasan's APC over the original!

"As for the chances that it will remain incomplete, isn't this true for any range of miniatures until it isn't?"

Perhaps. But that, to me, is what hurts many miniatures companies. Why shell out your cash and take the risk that your collection will be incomplete? I've heard that thrown out fairly lately at Rebel Minis and their modern Chinese line. A number of gamers I know won't jump into them because, as it exists now, there's only the one pack of riflemen. In fact, I have two packs of them myself and I'm waiting for the 'extras' to make my 20+ riflemen into a real unit.

"This is where I find your response, if not unrealistic then a bit knee-jerk."

Okay.

"Let me ask this, and perhaps we can both offer, in way of your answer, somethign of use to the OP other than our difference of opinion.

How would Khurasan's release have more satisfied your desires/demands?"

Simple. Complete the line with the first offering.

Sounds like a lot, but it isn't. A complete line, to me, is everything I need to field a battle-worthy force. Say two packs and the APC. The first pack would be what was offered but with 4-5 original sculpts and a couple of repeats. The second pack would complete the platoon with some support weapons (flamer, RPG, plasma, etc) and a command team. The APC is optional really as I could get by with a complete rifle platoon and could scare up the APCs if I really needed to.

IIRC, this is what Rebel Minis does. They start their lines with a basic infantry pack followed quickly by a supporting weapons/command pack.

If this works then up the ante with more rifle/MG sculpts to make the line interesting, add more command sculpts, support weapons, vehicles, and so on to give more attachments to the platoon and to allow it to go to company level. Most 15mm skirmish gamers, like me, build up to the platoon + to company – level. Give us the stuff to build to that point.

But just completing the line to a basic level is ressauring to the gamer that he'll have the figures he needs to play on a basic level and that you're serious about supporting the line. That makes us plan our purchases for the long haul and would seem to net the mini company a loyal audience who's just waiting for the next release to beef up their collections, but yet they have the hard ware to start gaming on reasonable levels from the get go.

Can I do that with Khurasan's Exterminators right now? Not really. Small skirmishes? Yes. This is a complete squad with all the basic weapons I would expect at the squad level. Platoon level fights? Yes, but with no attachments. No anti-tank weapons, no snipers, no fire support. Just a basic platoon with basic organic gear. Anything more than that? No, not at all.

Honestly, if it wasn't Khurasan, or if I wasn't already familiar with Khurasan, I probably would have passed on this even though Colonial Marines have been the core of my sci-fi gaming since 1991! One basic squad just really isn't enough for me. I would have sat on the fence to see where this went before I dropped any money on them. But this is Khurasan and I've collected their figures and I know that I'm getting a quality product regardless. Besides, I wouldn't be any worse off because my current QRF collection has the same weaknesses.

Alright. I will give you that it would be nice to have a complete offering to begin with, but that is also a huge outlay on a company which means greater risk. Still not realistic.

I would also say literal truth is not the same as truth. A line that hasn't had time to have add-ons is not incomplete, it is pending completion. I will consider a line incomplete when it has been decided, by the manufacturer, that the line will no longer receive any support and there are still gaps in it.

Let's say that people saw Khurasan's offering as "just another Colonial Marine line" and didn't buy? Had he kicked out two packs and an APC then he's put about $3000+ out into something that could have gone elsewhere.

If it sells then he will produce more, but if not, he now has the option to zag instead of zigging. He doesn't have money tied up in go nowhere designs and molds.

I think everyone in the miniatures hobby needs to remember that most of these companies operate on small budgets. Even the big boys with the big built-up universes can't release it all at once and they have real production power and a complete vision with a rapid loyal player base.

We're not talking movies here with contracts guaranteeing a three picture deal with all the support you need to get them done up front here.

In the end, I think it's safe to say that we agree and disagree on various points here. I'll let this be my last comment on this.

-Eli

I think the real problem here is the miniature market itself…

To compare it to an ice cream parlor; your options are vanilla (rubber suit aliens), 40 different flavors of chocolate (mid-tech troops), strawberry (high tech troops), and snozzberry (alien aliens). The problem of course, is that there's no pineapple, no butter rum, no pecan, etc… and snozzberry just doesn't sell too well.

I'm also assuming that Khurasan intended his "Exterminators" as a character or skirmish pack that might eventually be expanded. Much like the GZG/Splintered Light Free Trader crews, there's no real need to expand them, but they could be expanded.

That seems about right Astranagant.

Really it comes down to somebody willing to make a move and take a risk.

I think we have so many mid-tech troops because they have been around long enough to prove their sales. It's a safe bet for a new company who is poking its head into the business.

The Exterminators do fill a niche in Jon's universe so you may be right.

-Eli

For something completely different, it would be good to have some Trigan Empire style troops and weapons in 15mm.

Ok Guys 15mm was all about risk for the current manufacturers.

And to be quite frank the current expansion was built on lobbying certain manufacturers to produce "specialty" figures. Part of this was from the work of a few people in places like the Yahoo 15mmSF list.

And to be honest I am loud about character/weird alien/short run figures, I largely play skirmish scale games so lots of different figures is what I am interested in. Anything larger than that I tend to shift down to 6mm.

That being said I generally buy only a squad or two any "Army" more is likely if the figures are convertible to other uses.

But the real answer is make what you want to play with.

As a side, and I am not saying to copy anyones IP, but there is a lot of discussion here and in general in the 15mm circle about figures that can stand in for Factions in 40K, Halo, Fallout, Mass Effect etc. etc… Not saying anything just where discussions have gone…

I'd like to mention that he is starting with Midtech Scifi… but the question is where to move on from there?

what i would love to see is something different – more cyberpunk armoured infantry here is photos of some infinity models to know what i think by that

basicly we got enough spartan/ODST ranges but hightech and low tech are lacking.

also if you will do vehlices in future be sure you look into C&C:Tiberium Sun models for inspiration not copy because of IP but inspiration will be lovely – it is my dream as wargamer to once field Orca gunship

and lastly alien swarms and power armoured infantry – the CMG introduced lots of alien mercs so it will be nice to have some inteligent armoured and armed aliens (think Elites and Hunters from Halo series) but we are lacking mindless killing machines – something like Zerg or that vermins from Pitch black or Alien swarm game just teeths and claws and i will be happy man . on other side appart from GZG and khurasan power armour figures (which is currently unavailible) we dont have any power armour figures and also smaller armoured fighting suits only i can remeber is DIMOG from khurasan so i would love to see more

Cheers Hayden

I'm in a difficult position because some manufacturers still fill me in on their plans and I get to see the greens in advance.

What I will say is that I agree with Hayden regarding Cyberpunk and Hi tech. There's some – CMGs Mercs etc but not enough available overall – my fingers are crossed that Jason at Micropanzer can get a sculptor who can realise his concept drawings.

Until then, Im on hiatus from 15mm Sci Fi as I have shelves filled with 'grunts' and troopers and instead now collecting Hi tech "Mass Effect" style 28mm minis from Antenociti's Workshop, Infinity and selected Urban Mammoth packs.

I take my hat off to Antenociti because I have been able to build an entire platoon from their G.O.T. range T-PEA troopers – with different squad leaders and a range of support weapons. Some of the more 'light footed' poses are reminiscent of the way avatars move on "Mass Effect" but the majority are in good solid combat poses, which Ive bought in multiples. As for the guys firing over and round cover – inspired!

Cheers
Mark

"In the end, I think it's safe to say that we agree and disagree on various points here. I'll let this be my last comment on this"

Fair enough, and I'll let this be my last word as well.

"Alright. I will give you that it would be nice to have a complete offering to begin with, but that is also a huge outlay on a company which means greater risk. Still not realistic."

Eli, you're not really thinking this through. The current release from Khurasan has nine different sculpts from what I can see. The releases from Rebel Minis which complete their lines have a similar number of different sculpts. Here's an example.

The current release has a single rifle section of 9 men and each appears to be a different sculpt (but I don't know for certain as the picture makes it a bit hard to tell), but lets say for argument's sake that this current line has 9 different sculpts.

Now let's say that Jon did this-

Say he did it in 5 sculpts: 1 NCO, 1 SAW, 3 rifle. When the packs are made you put two of this sprue in each packet giving you 10 marines in each pack. Splitting that up I could form two rifle squads with 4 marines and each marine in the squad is a different sculpt, I would also have a section sergeant and an extra sergeant type to do whatever I wanted to. That's five sculpts.

The other four from this release could be used to make supporting weapons, support troopers, sentry guns, etc. That's a fairly complete range for the same number of (apparent) poses. Same cost and risk for Khurasan as this release? Who knows but Jon. But is this really any more costly or risky?

Okay, that's enough for me now.

Someone wants my input? Oh boy! ;-)

1) For rules, I like "Tomorrows War", due out soon:
link
For missing minis in the sci-fi market, here are what I would like to see most:
1) More near-future earth armies (near-future Russians, Chinese, etc…)
2) Complete lines of alien infantry sets released (not just 5 poses) ie. 3-4 rifles poses, a missile launcher, a SAW gunner, 2-3 leader figures, etc…
3) If alien infantry sets are released, support them with AFV's & support craft (dropships, etc…),
4) More Alien-tech buildings please!
5) More non-gun carrying aliens (aliens that kill with their teeth and claws)
6) Stop making aliens based on earth animlas (ie. lions with guns, tigers with guns, bears with guns, oh my!). Make some aliens that look like this in 15mm, and I will buy 100+

7) Desert/Arab-looking forces with hi-tech (future) weapons. Sure there are aleardy "Sahadeen" from Rebel, but those just look like "not Fremin" to me. There is nothing Arab or futur-Islamic about them at all. I would like to see some Al Quada/Taliban infantry circa 2100AD, etc…

Regarding lack of wide range of Colonial Marines:

I would like to remind that in the Autumn 2011 there will be release of whole range of Colonial Marines by Oddział Ósmy. You can see some of those here:
TMP link

There will be a lot of figures, many specialists, including few officers, several NCO, several SAWs, few missile-launchers, flamethrower, shotgunner, drone-controller, sapper, medic, comm-tech, chaplain, K-9 with dog, cameraman and a hero in Ramboish pose etc.

Hard to beat that.

Thanks for the heads up Umpapa! I missed this thread. They look pretty cool and the "Russian" label tossed at them is intriguing! In this paint scheme and with their gear they do give off a Russian aura- although Russian to me would also have some khaki in it too. Good stuff!

Good call Umpapa. That line of minis looks awesome, though they look more Polish than Rusky to me ;-)

Uesugi Kenshin:
1)What exactly you think near future lines?
7)What about islamic federation troopers from ground zero games?

they came in helmet and Keffiyeh old sculpts thought but not bad really

Mounted and dismounted troopers on horses or other types of beast of burden. Nothing to far fetched. No big mean cats or anything like that. Just some good ol' plausible mounts.

Good call Umpapa. That line of minis looks awesome, though they look more Polish than Rusky to me ;-)

:) They are quite universal, IMVHO. Please forgive threadjacking those OO concept arts of power armors looks a bit more Polish:

I hope they go in a different direction than those. Neo-medieval styling alongside gritty mid-tech troops is not a good match.

-Eli

Hard to beat that.

Less standy abouty, just spraying the fence with wood preservative before sunday lunch and more "OMG they're inside the perimeter"/ "Oh, you want some of this? " poses will do it.

Cheers
Mark