"4 Lords of Chaos (GW), is there room for another?" Topic
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| 28mmMan | 03 Jun 2011 10:16 p.m. PST |
The big four Lords of Chaos in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40K; Khorne – God of Blood, Force, Anger, Bravery, Retribution, unrelenting Fury and War. Tzeentch – God of Change, Evolution, Subtlety, Mutation, Hope, Magic and endless Schemes and Plots. Nurgle – God of Decay, Deformity, Neuroses, Necrosis, Pity, Despair, Preservation, Disease and Physical Corruption. Slaanesh – God of Hedonism, Masochism, Sadism, Beauty, Perfection, Addiction, Sex, Wealth, and Psychological Corruption. ***** It seems at first glance, even second glance, that most of the bases are covered. At least in a functional gaming consideration anyway. I am sure there are elements that are not so gamable but surely there must be something left? Straight up Insanity sounds fairly viable…there are elements of insanity in each of the other aspects of the big four, but just basic raw insanity…being lost in one's mind and forcing others, perhaps at range, to be driven insane. Perhaps? How about something like this: Bedlaam – God of Insanity, Illusions, Delusions, Phobias, Genius, Intellectual and Mental Corruption. A chaos lord that seeks out those who are on high such as doctors, professors, deacons, etc. who provide support, counseling, or healing…and those on low such as the homeless, survivors of extreme trauma, those who are outcast, etc.. These individuals become beacons for those on the edge, drawing small groups to support one another and yet deep down they are dragging the others down into insanity with them. The main aspect would be the noise and bizarre actions of the Bedlaam followers…constant wailing, screaming, speeches, laughing, and the arm flailing, jerky walk/run, etc.. The Bedlaam chaos units would be immune to psychology and would cause random psychology to others. Some aspect of distraction should be applied, as the Bedlaam champions cause particular phobias on those in contact with them…so if you charge a Bedlaam champion there is a good chance that a disabling mental disorder will kick in…Agoraphobia- Fear of open spaces or of being in crowds, crippling depression, suicidal, hysterical paralysis or blindness, etc.. ***** Best I can come up with. You guys have any ideas? |
| 28mmMan | 03 Jun 2011 10:29 p.m. PST |
Oh…and lots of Goldberg style machines…gears, wheels, davits, belts, etc. along with weapons/armor that are as twisted and insane as the wielders. Where Slaanesh deals with passions, Bedlaam focuses on the thinking processes…imagine your hero attacking a Bedlaam champion and being struck with the need to count, he must count, can't fight or defend himself, just count or being struck with a formula that can't be solved or can it? Numbers, colors, shapes, behaviors, etc. |
| Jovian1 | 03 Jun 2011 10:49 p.m. PST |
Skulls, lots of skulls with funny faces of course. |
| Twilight | 03 Jun 2011 10:52 p.m. PST |
There had been brief mention of Malal, "The Renegade God," who embodied chaos at its most destructive. He seems to have been left in the dust a couple decades ago, though. link |
| infojunky | 04 Jun 2011 12:05 a.m. PST |
In a weird way isn't the Emperor one? Or like Slanesh before emerging a Chaos God in Waiting…. Just a thought. |
| HumorousConclusion | 04 Jun 2011 1:55 a.m. PST |
Interestingly enough, the old Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned book had rules for randomly generating minor Chaos powers and their pantheon Daemons. They were interesting but the results could be pretty bizarre. |
| Insomniac | 04 Jun 2011 2:48 a.m. PST |
What about 'Reaper' the chaos god of greed/theft? A chaos god whose followers go to war and take weapons, armour, equipment from the opponents and can even turn their opposition against one another by stealing their conscious thought… |
| EagleSixFive | 04 Jun 2011 5:01 a.m. PST |
"the chaos god of greed/theft?" Only name it in wisper, dare'th not speake of it aloud, lest it smite you down, the kirbywells! |
| jpattern2 | 04 Jun 2011 5:49 a.m. PST |
Twilight mentioned Malal, the Chaos God who hates all other Chaos.
The Skaven have their Horned Rat: link
The Elves and Eldar have Khaine: link
In the Mutant Chronicles/Warzone universe, the Dark Soul has five faces: Dark Symmetry (Dark Magic), War, Insanity, Lies, and Pestilence. The corresponding Dark Apostles (kinda-sorta Chaos Gods) are:
- IIian, First Mistress of the Dark Soul
- Algeroth, Apostle of War and Master of Dark Technology
- Muawijhe, Lord of Insanity
- Semai, The Betrayer, The Speaker of Lies
- Demnogonis, Prince of Pestilence
link
You could also build a Chaos God around one of the seven deadly sins: Greed, Pride, Lust, Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, or Wrath. |
| Pictors Studio | 04 Jun 2011 6:15 a.m. PST |
Isn't Slaanesh basically the god of the seven deadly sins in that he is the god of pleasurable excess. And if not all of them then throw Nurgle in there and you have the rest. I'd say there really isn't room for another. They have most of the bases covered. I've always thought that they were paired up funny though. I'd have thought that Khorne would hate Tzeentch, not Slannesh and it would make more sense for Nurgle and Slannesh to dilike each other. |
| clkeagle | 04 Jun 2011 6:22 a.m. PST |
Some writings have placed the four Chaos powers, the Emperor of Mankind, Gork, Mork, Khaine, the Laughing God, and the C'Tan all on the same level and plane of existence. The Tau are pretty much the only "atheistic" race in 40k. So there could certainly be other powers at that level, whether part of Chaos or something else. I'd also offer this… the Chaos star has eight points. There may be up to four other Chaos powers that are "known." Chris |
| 28mmMan | 04 Jun 2011 10:03 a.m. PST |
Good stuff guys! ***** @infojunky "In a weird way isn't the Emperor one?" Yes, I guess he is in some ways…genetic manipulation, bizarre mechanical augmentations, etc…perhaps a twisted Purity focus? Law, DNA, control, etc. ***** Malal, this is an old rub that comes up every now and then…idea of one of the staffers who left and took his toys with him link The concept of the Chaos God "Malal" was created by comics writers John Wagner and Alan Grant along with Malal's champion, Kaleb Daark, for the Warhammer Fantasy world in the Citadel Miniatures Compendium and Journals. In the comic strip adventure Kaleb Daark's mission allied him temporarily with the forces of good. He fights at the siege of Praag and confronts the followers of the Chaos God Khorne, and also finds himself at odds with the Skaven. Less mutated than other followers of Chaos, he is equipped with his soul-drinking daemon axe "Dreadaxe" with its pterodactyl-like head on a shaft of bone. His shield was shaped in the form of Malal's skull symbol, his armor was all-black with white details and his steed was a black mutant horse. Kaleb himself appeared pale, as the contact with Malal supposedly drained him of energy. His battle cry was "Dreadaxe thirsts for you!" There were three installments completed of The Quest of Kaleb Daark comic. In the Spring 1986 Journal there was also one additional page of Warhammer Fantasy Battle rules (and a small bit of Malal background) for including Kaleb Daark and his steed in games. This issue also saw the first advertisements for the miniature figure set including a mounted and standing Kaleb Daark. The Spring 1987 Journal featured the miniature figure sets of the two Chaos Brothers, Jaek and Helwud, Kaleb's main adversaries in Part 3. Part 4 "God Amok!" was also advertised in this issue, but it never saw print. It is uncertain how much of this 4th installment was actually completed. Allegedly the comic was canceled because of "creative differences" between the creators and Games Workshop. So I agree Malal is a good one, especially for those not shackled to the GW grindstone :) ***** The interaction between the chaos gods is an interesting concept, I suspect this is going to be more of what the chaos lord's goal is more than anything else…who can guess the long term goals of a god? Khorne certainly would welcome the opportunity of battle, especially against those who wish to only defend, rely upon politics instead of war, or lean on magic and wizards. Tzeentch would be an easy mark for any Khorne follower due to the magic bias. Slaanesh's motivations are so perverse and indirect in all aspects I suspect it just cheeses Khorne types off. Nurgle's goal is to corrupt rather than direct death, with a smile…that smile and fatherly nature has got to work a point into Khorne's daddy issues. Tzeentch could and would use anyone for his goals, though Khorne types would have to be poked with a stick. Slaanesh would welcome contact with others to find new sensations and opportunities for experiences…even contact with Khorne types. Nurgle would happily waddle in this direction or another, he just wants to give you a hug. Malal gaining power from the growth of chaos yet hates, the chaos god of self loathing. Interesting. Malal is basically a force of law, nature taking a hand in curbing or culling an uncontrolled growth. ***** What about nature? A chaos lord that hates all technology and the workings of man. This god would destroy all buildings, structures, bridges, etc. The polar opposite of Nurgle; growth, health, vigor, hope, etc. Perhaps the followers of "Gaea" would gain regeneration, could cause destruction of siege machines (vines growing up and wrecking the constructs), convert others to their cause, etc.? A special unit might be the monks of Gaea…no weapons, no armor, just surrounded by small animals and bonded with plants…they regenerate, immune to psychology, and their touch can convert anyone to their cause…so the other player would have to maneuver to avoid the monks or steer weak units towards them to act as a wall? ***** Eight pointed star makes sense…four large or primary points and four secondary points…neat thought. |
| Seamus | 04 Jun 2011 10:16 a.m. PST |
Okay, how about Arioch
Slortar
Hionhurn
Xiombarg
Balaan
Pyaray
Mabelode I mean, since "GW Chaos" is just "Moorcock chaos" in different clothes, let's strip 'em naked. :) |
| 28mmMan | 04 Jun 2011 10:20 a.m. PST |
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| Pictors Studio | 04 Jun 2011 3:15 p.m. PST |
GW chaos isn't really much like Moorcock chaos though. The Chaos gods in Moorcock were a counter force to the powers of Law, one moving towards one extreme, one the other and the universe always, ultimately, balancing them. The Gods of Chaos in GW terms aren't really chaotic necessarily in the way the Moorcock gods are. They are more like deities of specific aspects of reality. You can't really equate Arioch with Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. The Moorcock gods had aspects of all of them at the same time but so could any fantasy deity. It isn't like Xiombarg was particularly Slaaneshi or anything. Nevermind that the GW chaos gods have, despite the name, a rather fixed persona in the storyline and the Moorcock gods, besides being supremely capricious, didn't. |
| evilmike | 04 Jun 2011 4:21 p.m. PST |
It's freaking GW. If you want to have 'Santa Klawz, Dread Chaos God Of he North' in your game, go for it. |
| Seamus | 04 Jun 2011 11:44 p.m. PST |
I was really poking fun at the fact that GW borrowed the eight-pointed star (and a few other aspects) from Moorcock more than any similarities in personality. |
| abdul666lw | 05 Jun 2011 4:47 a.m. PST |
Toyed with the assimilation of the 4 'Major' GW Chaos Gods to the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (in the version with 'Plague' instead of 'Conquest'):
- Obvious:
. Khorne = War
. Nurgle = Plague / Pestilence
- slightly less obvious:
. Tzeentch = Famine (caused by unpredictable *changes* of corn prices, themselves due to unpredictable *changes* of weather?)
- a little far-fetched, but works eventually quite well…
. Slaanesh = Death: 'fornication' being often a circumlocution for 'impiety / worship of false deities', and 'impiety / worship of false deities' = 'death of the soul'. Explains why Slaanesh is the 'younger' Chaos God: Death comes *after* war, plague, famine…
TMP link Then I toyed with the association of the 4 GW Chaos Gods with the 3 main 'functions' of old Indo-European mythologies / views of the human society [Medieval Orantes, Pugnantes, Laborantes: Clergy, Nobility and '3rd State' in the French 'Etats Generaux' of 1789], as their 'negative' forms:
- Slaanesh <=> 1st function (sacerdotal / Brahmins) as one 'level of universality' above the other 3 (and interestingly Varuna does have some androgynous features, Odin used a 'feminizing' form of sorcery…)
- Khorne <=> 2nd function (warrior / Kshatriyas)
- Nurgle & Tzeentch <=> 3rd function (workers – producers / Shudras); given its diversity the 3rd function is always represented by several Gods, N' & Tz' <=> the 'negative' aspects of the 2 major domains of the 3rd function: good health and wealth thanks to fertility / reliable productivity…
It sounds largely off-topic, but may explain why the GW Pantheon is self-sufficient with the 4 'major ones': all important fields are covered. According to this model, what could be missing, then, is a transfunctional *triple Goddess*. Is not the 'Laughing God' "Chaotic"? It could well be so and be a mortal enemy of the other 4, GW Chaos Gods don't offer an United Front. In the old 'Realms of Chaos', if I remember well the worst enmity is between Khorne & Slaanesh (bk 1) and between Nurgle and Tz'? Had not the Chaos Dwarves / Squats a God of their own? Would fit for the 'traitors' of the Machine God Cult. 4 Major Gods / 8 arrows? Then, in the Tsolyani Pantheon of Tekumel, each major God has an associated 'cohort'…. |
| 28mmMan | 05 Jun 2011 7:28 a.m. PST |
Nice, good considerations :) Goooo chaos! |
| flicking wargamer | 06 Jun 2011 10:58 a.m. PST |
I always saw the Emperor as a super controlling god that kept control through a central spot, controlling all his people and monitoring everything they did, using troops to put down any decent and keeping himself alive through artificial means. Almost like the old Soviet Union or China with its control of its population. At one point he was also described as having 1000 less psychics sacrificed to keep him alive each year. The chaos gods really were more propaganda from the emperor for those regions which are freer, almost more democratic. They were a threat to the empire because they would set the worlds of the empire free. Eldar are more socialist, with more freedoms but more of a collective look. Orks are more like the small puppet dictatorships and even natives. They rule through brute force, like to challenge the big guys, but can't keep anything together long enough to be too big a threat as a whole. At one point there were also some other chaos gods with followers, but they have been gradually subsumed into the 4 main ones. |
| billthecat | 06 Jun 2011 11:13 a.m. PST |
I used to run a 40K chaos marine army of Malal (2nd edition, and the last I really played), even then (1997-98?) almost nobody got the 'obscure' reference…
No wonder those guys are always so angry… |
| 28mmMan | 06 Jun 2011 11:31 a.m. PST |
The Seven Deadly Sins is a good thought…certainly there are aspects that are covered/shared by the big four, but there is overlap even among the top four. But an interesting play on this idea would be either seven Chaos lords the focus on the particular element, yet are bound somehow…a union, brothers/sisters, same lord with different personalities, etc. (a base consideration/focus for each) wrath…rage/berserk/strength greed…vampire (health, leadership, etc.) sloth…reduces others speed and actions pride…high leadership/morale lust…blood fueled bonuses (hurt an enemy get a bonus, etc.) envy…steals items in base to base gluttony…consumes everything (metal, weapons, wood, stone,flesh) Not in an effort get all things in one…everything would be in sevens…minimum of seven men in a unit, if more than one aspect then there must be all seven, a champion with Pride must have a pride unit at minimum, etc. So it would be fractured if more than one aspect but if planned out well it could be an interesting force…full of specialists. |
| Farstar | 06 Jun 2011 2:09 p.m. PST |
The impression given over the years is that the big four are merely at the top of the food chain of the Warp, but that the number of powerful entities in the Warp are numerous. A few have footholds in the normal realms, but the reach of any one of the big four is greater in the mortal realms than all the minor powers combined. On the 40k side, the Emperor has been on the cusp of becoming a Warp Power for ten thousand years, Gork and Mork are the projections of the collective Ork psyche but may not be actual entities, the gods of the Eldar are good candidates for Warp-powered ancients (but may also be splinter cell C'Tan), and the C'Tan are supposedly ancient beings of the Material. Fantasy side, we again get Gork and Mork and the Elven gods. The gods of humanity are small in number, but probably led by Sigmar the lost Primarch. Chaos sees a minor cousin in Hashut, the Volcano God who whispers into the ears of the Chaos Dwarfs, and the Horned Rat, collective consciousness of the Skaven. |
| 28mmMan | 07 Jun 2011 11:15 a.m. PST |
Good stuff there Farstar! There are apparently only four C'tan left. The Night Bringer: Powerful enough to impress its image as that of death itself on the psyche of the younger races, upon entering stasis it was almost destroyed by starvation but was released accidentally by the Dark Eldar, in conjunction with Uriel Ventris, an Ultramarines Captain of the 4th Company. The Deceiver: Came out of stasis an unknown time ago and has been weaving plots ever since, including the destruction of the ancient Eldar weapons, the Talismans of Vaul. The Void Dragon: Supposedly one of the most powerful C'tan. Was imprisoned by the Emperor under the Noctis Labyrinth, and directly created the Mechanicum of Mars. The Outsider: A C'tan that went insane due to its consumption of other C'tan or possibly an Eldar deity. They were star eaters, entombed the Necrontyr into their metal bodies and enslaved them, and consumed each other until only four remained. ***** Hashut, there is a collection of interesting thoughts. (clipped from wiki) There is very little information known about Hashut, especially regarding whether he is one of the Chaos gods or some other kind of god. What is known is that Hashut was a powerful daemonic lieutenant of Khorne who rebelled and was trapped underground to await Khorne's punishment. The daemon was discovered by the Dwarf clan that traveled east to the Mountains of Mourn, and tunneled deep into the mountain cage of Hashut to protect themselves during the first Great War against Chaos. Hashut protected the Dwarfs who had inadvertently released him, sheltering them from the great war in the outside world. After this a great schism split the Dwarfs, some staying true to the Ancestor Gods, and many choosing to worship Hashut. Hashut granted the most powerful of his new worshippers magical powers to use against their kin, some would eventually become so mutated that they became Lahmussa or Targus – battle beasts still used by the Chaos Dwarfs to this day. After the two sides had battled, many of the traditionalists were sacrificed to Hashut, thrown into forges and furnaces. The worship of Hashut changed the nature of the original Dwarfs until, over time, they became Chaos Dwarfs, corrupted by their prolonged exposure to a powerful chaotic entity. ***** If one can use such a foundation to extrapolate, perhaps Hastut's real offense may have been the use of magics, which Khorne hates with a fever for the flavor of a pringle. ***** In the same context, again I mention the Horned Rat. Surely he must have been a child in some form or another of Nurgle. Being a chaos god of corruption the Horned Rat the potential for association is too great. Maybe he left the family of Papa Nurgle to pursue his own selfish visions, of a Skaven filled world? ***** This presents an interesting process of thinking. How many other favored sons and daughters of the big four have stepped or been forced away from their patrons? Khorne : Hashut Nurgle (hypothetically) : Horned Rat Tzeentch : Slaanesh : If it is atypical behavior that drives the minor chaos lords from their major chaos lords, then this presents some fun creative processing… ***** Tzeentch, favored of schemes, magics, and change…to find disfavor from Tzeentch perhaps it would be through the abandonment of magic/sorcery? A iron willed, focused, and direct thinker…no plans within plans, no hiding behind whirling magics, and no desire to change…perhaps like the Horned Rat, drawn to a particular vision…Beastmen seem to be in need of a Chaos Lord. Most beastmen seem to favor Khorne, but I could see this former Tzeentch minor lord being drawn to the beastman base instincts, plain thinking, and their common mutation favors…a balance of Tzeentch favors without all the drama of politics and schemes. So I will name this lord of chaos, Wyrdaan Lord of the Tier (beasts). He is pictured as a huge bestial centaur with a great rack of horns and antlers that are said to constantly grow and fall away in combat; these fallen horns and antlers are made into weapons of great power in the hands of the beastmen…Wyrdaan's hide shows the mark of Tzeentch by constantly shifting from color and pattern…always with a measure of deep blue-black in the mix. ***** Slaanesh, favoring the passions of emotional strain and release, beauty, and vanity…to displease this god one would have to be immune to pleasure and pain, ignoring the passions and desires, find neither pleasure nor displeasure in beauty and possessions…cold hearted, driven by a particular aspect of the may that normally driven a Slaanesh lord, taking no pleasure…a serious, beautiful, driven character…again I look to a reason for the lord to leave or be driven from service of Slaanesh…perhaps towards the cold beauty of reptiles? I was thinking Amazons at first…so maybe a blend of the two? Snake women. Easy to model for game use…amazons on top and serpent bottoms. This cold, driven, yet beautiful chaos lord…seeking to bring beauty without the burden of emotional baggage and weight of morals. Eat when you are hungry, breed when you need, and destroy all that offends. I will name this lord of chaos, Khidna Mistress of Iron. She grants her followers the gift of the serpent body and a random boon of extra arms, chaos armor/weapons, and whip-like tentacles. All of her followers are women though not all have the serpent gifts. Khidna is seen as a beautiful woman with seven arms and a great serpent from the waist down. She is seen adorned in fine metal bangles and gems, one for each mortal killed in her name. Her skin is as bloodied silk, red and flawless. The serpent portion is a riot of color and patterns wove into a tapestry of beauty and insanity. She gathers troops from slaves, mistreated wives, and queens alike. Beautiful and cold hearted. |
| infojunky | 07 Jun 2011 2:00 p.m. PST |
28mmMan consider the idea stolen. I have a idol bit of terrain that needed a back story, I got one now. The Idol is based on this Reaper figure link She makes a great 15mm Idol… |
| 28mmMan | 07 Jun 2011 2:09 p.m. PST |
lol The exact miniature I would have chosen for the Champion. Serial kil…I mean great minds think alike :) (pictures with boobies, be warned) picture
picture
picture
link
link |
| Covert Walrus | 07 Jun 2011 2:22 p.m. PST |
Given what's happened with Finecast, I think there is adequate chaos in the GW universe at present . . . . |
| xxxxxxxxooooo | 07 Jun 2011 6:04 p.m. PST |
I thought his name was Fred. |
| 28mmMan | 07 Jun 2011 6:29 p.m. PST |
"Given what's happened with Finecast, I think there is adequate chaos in the GW universe at present" Covert sneaks an uppercut in there :) YouTube link |
| Zephyr1 | 08 Jun 2011 3:47 p.m. PST |
The 5th Chaos god is (has been for a while) Mammon. It has escaped from the immaterial realms, taken over an earthly entity, cries "Feed Me!" and demands that worshipping gamers throw money at it (even as it continues to raise it's prices.) In return, it gives them fun things to play with. A strategy that still seems to work…. ;-) (j/k!) |
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enjoys painting Demonworld figures.
