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"Saxon uniforms in 1809" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

wayneempire17 Mar 2011 9:14 p.m. PST

Okay, the Saxons present in Bernadotte's Corps at Wagram, would they have looked like the Saxons(circa 1806), or had the saxony infantry(Line) started to wear shakoes? Saxon cavalry in 1809, in bicornes(like those depicted in 1806, or had they undergone significant uniform changes(such as wearing the roman helmets) & shakoes?

I have an opportunity to buy 15mm Saxons, but I want to be sure they would be accurately uniformed for 1809.


Wayne

nsolomon9917 Mar 2011 9:48 p.m. PST

For the 1809 Campaign your Saxons should be in the early uniforms, glorious bicornes and a distinctively Seven Years War/Ancien Regime appearance – same as for 1806. Changes did not occur until 1810 when, after the mediocre performance of some Saxon units (particularly the infantry) during the Danube Campaign, a wholesale re-organisation was undertaken which extended to uniforms.

Eureka Miniatures do an early Saxon range in 15/18mm that is designed to be compatible with the AB Figure range. Could'nt comment on 25/28mm or other scales.

War In 15MM17 Mar 2011 9:53 p.m. PST

Wagram published by Histoire & Collections author F.-G. Hourtoulle with uniform drawings by Andre Jouineau shows the Saxon line infantry and cavalry in bicornes.

von Winterfeldt17 Mar 2011 11:58 p.m. PST

Saxons in 1809 did look different to 1806 – the most obvious – cross belts in 1809 and the pack was worn on the back.

Also in 1809 they did wear the uniform coat on campaign and not the Kittel as in 1806.
Joineau shows them wrongs, he still gives a waistbelt.

Also the round lapels were hooked down a much as possible to create the immagination of straight lapels.
But that did not succed down to the waist but left a small "round" end left over at the bottom end.
In case you usse the search function, there should be plenty informatation available on TMP about this topic including pictures.

bkim417518 Mar 2011 8:02 a.m. PST

Minifigs also has Saxons in the 1806 uniform with their 15mm line. Best to order them from the UK site.

Deadmen tell lies18 Mar 2011 3:22 p.m. PST

Hope this will be helpful for you Wayne.
Infantry –

link

link

link

Cavalry -

link


Regards
James

Femeng219 Mar 2011 5:37 a.m. PST

I am currently doing some Saxon infantry. in 1809 they had already been forced to shift to the Frech style uniform. Havn't gotten to the cavalry yet.

von Winterfeldt20 Mar 2011 5:12 a.m. PST

What French style uniform?
They used their 1806 ones but hooked the lapels down as far as possible, they still had hats, the Schützen a green plume, the pack was carried on the back (instead on the hip as in 1806) and the sabre on a cross belt and not on the waistbelt any more, the computer generated prints in Hourtoulle's Wagram are useless for Saxons 1809.

SJDonovan20 Mar 2011 5:59 a.m. PST

Hi Wayne,

In 1809 the Saxons were still wearing a uniform that would have looked much the same as in 1806. Although there may have been changes as outlined by von Winterfeldt I doubt that you will find a 15mm manufacturer who differentiates between the 1806 and 1809 uniform.

I think the radical change in Saxon uniforms, when the line infantry switched to something more like the French uniform, came in 1810. You can find details at the Napoleon Series website: napoleon-series.org

For some reason I cannot provide a direct link but if you click on 'Military' then 'Organisation, Strategy and Tactics' you will find the list of articles ordered alphabetically by country.

Basically, you need guys in cocked hats/bicornes for anything up to Wagram. After that you need to switch to guys in shakos.

Kirk Yaro11 Aug 2021 1:03 a.m. PST

Hi everyone.
Did you happen to see pictures of Saxon Schützen with green plumes for 1809?
And what weapons did they use, rifles or muskets? With or without bayonets?

Prince of Essling11 Aug 2021 6:42 a.m. PST

Pragmatische Geschichte der Saechsischen Truppen, ein Taschenbuch für Soldaten 1792 link

Die saechsische Armee, 1802 / Aster. Auteur du texte link

Uniformes saxons 1800-1806. link

Die verschiedenen Uniformen sächsischen Armee, 1806-1823 / vom Kupferstecher Bärtsch link

Saechss Armee-Uniformen… 1810 / Koenigl Koenigl. Auteur du texte link

Neuuniformirte königlich sächsische Armee… link

@Kirk Yaro – the pictures of the Schutzen relate to the 1810 uniform as you will see from the above.

Kirk Yaro11 Aug 2021 8:41 a.m. PST

Thank you, Prince of Essling!
Haven't found 1809 Schützen there though…

Prince of Essling11 Aug 2021 9:18 a.m. PST

@Kirk Yaro – I thought you were thinking of the light infantry & Jager…. apologies.

The sharpshooters of the 1806 line battalions had green plumes to their bicornes & were rifle armed.

Kirk Yaro11 Aug 2021 9:23 a.m. PST

As I found out, there was Infanterie-Gewehr M 1809 ("Neu-Suhler" Gewehr) that Saxon Schütze started receiving it in 1809. I wonder if Schützen used this musket with bayonet when shooting/skirmishing?
It's a crucial question for me to decide whether to cut off bayonets from HaT models or not…

Prince of Essling11 Aug 2021 2:21 p.m. PST

Sorry nothing on whether bayonets were fixed or not – but some background info from Rawkins:

"From 1802 the Schützen-Abteilung from each Feld-Regiment were officially organised into two independent battalions in wartime in a similar manner to the grenadiers, however, this innovation had not been actioned in time for the 1806 and 1807 campaigns. On 18 May 1808 new amended orders were issued for the organisation of the Schützen-Feld-Bataillonen and each infantry company was now to provide one Korporal and ten Schützen to the Schützen-Feld-Bataillonen. In June 1809 under Bernadotte's guidance the two battalions were re-organised as the 1.Leichte-Bataillon von Metzsch and the 2.Leichte-Bataillon von Egidy and any surplus men from the re-organisation of the line infantry battalions were transferred to the light infantry battalions bringing the strength up to four companies each of 175 men. Each Schützen-Feld-Bataillon consisted of four companies with a small battalion staff and an official system of drum and horn signals was introduced for all skirmishers. The depots of the Feld-Regimenter still in Saxony were authorised to create new Schützen-Abteilung of one officer and 40 men which were detached throughout 1809 to various garrisons and were known collectively as the ‘Schützen der Sächsischen-Infanterie' as part of the Mobile Defense Force charged with the defence of the Saxon homelands and several saw service in skirmishes with the Braunsweig ‘Schwarze-Schar' in July 1809."

"UNIFORMS SCHÜTZEN-ABTEILUNG 1793-1809 Prior to the creation of the Leichte-Infanterie-Bataillonen in 1810, the Schützen-Abteilung which comprised the Schützen-Feld-Bataillonen and the Leichte-Bataillon, wore the same uniform as their parent regiment the only distinguishing feature being the green plume worn on the bicorn hat. The Schützen-Feld-Bataillonen were formed as required at the
commencement of a campaign and stood down when no longer needed and the men returned to their regiments and no records have been found of the regimental
component parts of the battalions although logically these would probably have been drawn from the regiments of the same division."

"The regimental Schützen-Abteilung despite being styled as scharfschützen had only received a limited number of rifles, and these were mostly personal weapons in the hands of former gamekeepers and hunters who were skilled in their use. The cost and the extra effort required to train rifle armed sharpshooters was not considered a worthwhile exercise by most of the old Inhabers and therefore by 1809 most of the Schützen were still armed in an identical manner to the grenadiers with the shorter pattern musket and bayonet, their value as light infantry relied upon their limited training as skirmishers. With the reforms brought about by Bernadotte in 1809 grouping the regimental Schützen-Abteilung into battalions an effort was made to give the elite light infantry units some real skirmishing training and Bernadotte obtained Napoléon's leave to re-arm most of the men with captured
Austrian m.1795 rifled musket from the Vienna arsenal, a weapon which had the advantage of accuracy with the length and ease of handling of a musket."

"The need for re-organisation was not lost on Bernadotte who immediately set about rectifying the lack of light infantry in the Saxon army by forming the Schützen
detachments of each of the four brigades into permanent independent Schützen-Abteilung. On 18 May the four units were expanded by the addition of selected troops and officers from the infantry regiments and formed into two four company Schützen-Bataillonen, under the command of Hauptmann Albrecht von Metzsch and Major Christoph von Egidy.

The newly formed 2.Schutzen-Bataillon von Egidy, was in action the following day as part of a flying column consisting of the Schützen, three squadrons of the
Husaren-Regiment and the Chevauxléger-Regiment Prinz Clemens under the command of Generalmajor von Gutschmeid who embarked upon a night raid against an Austrian advance guard of hussars and Grenzer infantry close to Neumarkt. At about 2am the chevauxlegers under Rittmeister Gecka charged the Croatian light infantry but were thrown back by a surprise attack from the dark by the Austrian hussars of the Hessen-Homburg Husaren-Regiment Nr.4 losing one trooper killed and twelve wounded including Gecka. The situation was saved by von Egidy's Schützen who drove back the Croat scouts and fired into the hussars from the flank and rear driving the Austrians away and then occupying the town of Neumarkt.

The success of the Schützen-Bataillonen prompted Bernadotte of remedy the lack of mobile artillery support for his advance guard. He had already complained to Napoléon about having no light artillery and the utter slowness and inefficiency of the Saxon foot artillery and train but without constructive response and on the 20 May ordered the creation of a horse artillery battery with selected artillerists from the foot batteries, four light 8 pdr guns from Huthsteiner's battery and the two matching guns from the artillery reserve. The battery was not a total success as the gunners had no experience of horses and the mounts themselves were captured Austrian cavalry mounts previously rejected by the Saxon hussars as remounts."

von Winterfeldt11 Aug 2021 10:54 p.m. PST

The Schützen had infantry muskets, when skirmishing the bayonet was removed, when standing in reserve it was attached.
The Schützen did wear in 1809 a green plume as distinction.
The Perrys will cover the 1809 Saxon Army well, as they already did with their 1806 range (Saxons in Kittel).

Kirk Yaro12 Aug 2021 8:47 a.m. PST

Oh, thank you very much, Prince of Essling and von Winterfeldt!

Where can one read about "…when skirmishing the bayonet was removed, when standing in reserve it was attached."?

Stoppage13 Aug 2021 2:49 p.m. PST

Well it kind of makes sense. If the enemy get too close then the pairs of skirmishers would retire to the supports for protection.


I'm trying to find the thread that discussed how a pair of skirmishers operated – one with rifle, the other covering the first with musket (maybe with bayonet fixed?)

Prince of Essling14 Aug 2021 5:15 a.m. PST

@ Stoppage – try TMP link

von Winterfeldt14 Aug 2021 9:01 a.m. PST

About fixing bayonets or not using them, I was under the impression that it is in

Unterricht für die Scharfschützen bey der Churfürstlichen Sächsischen Infanterie vom Jahre 1804, but cannot find it in the text – for the moment – interesting to note is that initially it was thought to equip them with a rifle or rifled carbine, as the text speaks all the time about the Büchse.

The illustrations of Sauerweid about the 1809 campaign just show this however – Schützen shooting without fixed bayonet and also the green plume.
In case I come along to the text passage, I must have read it somewhere – I will come back to this.

von Winterfeldt14 Aug 2021 10:55 p.m. PST

It is in

Reglement für die Knöglich Sächsische leichte Infanterie zu den Uebungen außer der geschlossenen Ordnung vom Jahre 1810.


In chapter 3 – § 5 – when the Schützen are dispersing into open order the bayonet is removed and placed into the scabbard.

There is nothing like that in the instructions of 1804, though a special § about fixing and removing the bayonet.

I asked Jörg Titze, in my view a top expert of the Saxon army and he concludes that the Saxon Schützen of 1806 as well as 1809 did as ruled in the 1810 instructions (confirmed by the Sauerweid illustrations of the 1809 campaign, which could be bought very reasonable as re prints edited by Dr. Thomas Hemmann.

Hope that helps

Kirk Yaro16 Aug 2021 12:42 p.m. PST

Vielen Dank!

Marcus Maximus11 Nov 2021 4:32 a.m. PST

The Perry Twins have just released 1809 Saxons and what beautiful sculpts they are too :)

von Winterfeldt11 Nov 2021 5:24 a.m. PST

Indeed, seemingly the first ever Saxons of 1809 in the correct uniforms and equipment for 1809, and showing the self priming pan in the loading sequenz as well.

picture

Allan F Mountford11 Nov 2021 1:06 p.m. PST

Seriously good brushwork. They are some of the very best representations of white uniforms I have ever seen.

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