"The Ogre is back!" Topic

I could imagine buying it, even though I doubt anyone would ever play it with me.

$100 USD is a tank of gas. I spend that mostly going places I don't want to go.
-Kle.

The price is not out of line for a massive board game.

I have no doubts that it will sell out.

But this release's price point and format will not make Ogre any more accessible or appealing to a new generation. Old guys will buy a $100 USD cardboard game,out of nostalgia. Young gamers won't – they expect FFG-style packaging.

I remember commenting on this last year. Here are my two bits again, just for the heck of it: Why not some plastic minis (The reason I was given is 'price',but no numbers and the competition would indicate otherwise…) ,$100…okay, but then why not some plastic miniature thingies? Limited edition?…of course, there are a limited number of people who are going to buy this with no plastic tank things. stand-up cut out ogres?… why not minis? I would rather play with a flat counter that matches the rest of the units (and 2-D terrain)

To sum: Once again, a well executed product, probably a fair price, but WHY produce this when you could have produced something that would sell better and have some staying power? It is just like the constant rehashes of Battletech…. gauranteed success succumbing to mediocrity (albeit well produced)(But at least B.T. has plastic 'miniatures')

Some people will love this. That is great. But I think a huge market is being missed that could have very easily been tapped.

Ogre 6e includes the rules and units from Ogre, G.E.V., and Shockwave.

Shockwave alone included over 200 counters in the original form.

With hundreds of pieces of plastic, the price would be significantly higher than it is now (unless SJ was willing to let the classic lines of the miniatures degrade down to detail-less lumps of "red unit" and "blue unit" which he wasn't).

Okay, so SJG packaged all three original games, will full color chits, some 3D card ruins and Ogre, 1.5 inch hex map pieces, and an oversized box. $100 USD is still not worth it, unless you like being one of the few that like to show off that you paid $100 USD for a "collectible"( which is the very market SJG targeted).

That's clearly not for me, and I think the use of SJG's "Munchkin money" would have been better used creating and marketing Ogre in a way that would draw in new players as well as profiting off of the nostalgia market. SJG should have reproduced the pattern that made Ogre such a success in the first place( small boxes with a whole game inside at a cheap price…$10 perhaps?), and could have made a "deluxe edition" with all three games inside a traditional "bookcase package"( $40 USD perhaps?). With proper promotion, especially the "beer & pretzels game" angle, whole new players could be drawn in, old players revitalized, and with NEW scenarios and pieces added later in new game packs( like GEV & Shockwave were) the players could be kept hooked and even eventually led down that wonderful back alley called Ogre miniatures( which would led to new ways to market that version of this beloved game).

But then maybe this is too much effort, and might distract from work on Munchkin.

FFG manages high quality plastic pieces and don't charge more than $100 USD for their games.
It's hard to believe that the junky components that come in SJG releases cost what they do when other companies can come up with significantly better for the same or less.
The value of a game is not entirely in parts, but it's almost as though anyone in SJG has not bothered to purchase a board game in the last ten years from any other company and don't realize how behind the times they are.
Even self-publishers put out more with lower cost.

Hmm, I am reminded of the thread from last year: TMP link

$100.00 USD – then to get it to UK, add shipping costs? Even tho I like the game, and always have, my preference is for the miniatures version, and so I'm not sure yet I can justify the costs for this, the boardgame re-visit.

Caesar wrote: "It's hard to believe that the junky components that come in SJG releases cost what they do when other companies can come up with significantly better for the same or less."

The reason is the price-to-cost ratio. Many publishers in the hobby games industry accept 5-to-1 ratios -- that is, they price their games $5 USD for every $1 USD the printer charges them to make the game.

Steve Jackson Games uses a 10-to-1 ratio. While this generates higher prices, this ratio has been in use for 30 years; the only proof needed for the effectiveness of the ratio is in the longevity.

Maybe so, Paul, but is that 10:1 ratio the best choice? SJG may be a long-lived company, but it's still far from top tier in the industry. Much younger companies are passing them by left and right, and the price-versus-quality aspect is part of that mix. Munchkin's a winner, but what else have they got that's really making waves in the market place? Nothing, these days. Meanwhile FFG and Nexus are producing extremely high-quality, high value hits across multiple games and themes. So I just don't buy your argument that SJG's strategy really has long term viability at this point. Yes, back when most "off-beat" games had similar quality for similar prices throughout the industry, SJG was tops. But those days of crappy, cheap cardstock components being acceptable are gone.

Sure, SJG will get some nostalgia types willing to pay $100 USD for this not-so-deluxe edition of Ogre, but I still think they're missing the boat. If FFG can put out the jaw-dropping elements of Descent (retail $80), and WotC can do the same with The Wrath of Ashardalon (retail $50), then why the heck can't SJG put out a version of Ogre with high quality plastic tanks, etc. for $100… or even less? It's not like the piece counts for Ogre would need to be all that high to begin with to provide a good mix of selectable forces. And they could still sell Shockwave, GEV, etc. as expansion products, restoring the Ogre brand as a high-value, highly popular game.

This release just strikes me as a wasted opportunity.

Parzival wrote:

"Maybe so, Paul, but is that 10:1 ratio the best choice? SJG may be a long-lived company, but it's still far from top tier in the industry. Much younger companies are passing them by left and right, and the price-versus-quality aspect is part of that mix."

Will those other companies be around in another five years? Another decade? For every FFG, there are many others who attempted the same model that have lost their owners a ton of cash.

In the end, the "best" ratio can be argued. What can't be argued is that 10-to-1 has worked for SJ for 30 years. I guess the question is: would you rather be a top-tier company for a decade, or a less-than-top-but-very-profitable company for three?

"Munchkin's a winner, but what else have they got that's really making waves in the market place? Nothing, these days."

Have you heard of Zombie Dice? About 40,000 copies were sold in less than a year. Cthulhu Dice did nearly as well. The Chez line continues to have sales that would support many smaller publishers on its own. Revolution! and Illuminati have sold enough that, if Munchkin wasn't dominating so strongly, they'd be "monster hits." Even GURPS is strong enough to support two employees full-time.

"So I just don't buy your argument that SJG's strategy really has long term viability at this point."

I guess the only decider here will be time. If SJGames is around in another decade, this strategy will have paid off. If the company dissolves before then, you will have been correct. Before that time, and we're just guessing.

"If FFG can put out the jaw-dropping elements of Descent (retail $80), and WotC can do the same with The Wrath of Ashardalon (retail $50), then why the heck can't SJG put out a version of Ogre with high quality plastic tanks, etc. for $100… or even less?"

What some call "jaw-dropping," other call "soft plastic with weak detail."

A customer will buy it based on perceived value.

Arguing with…ah, skip it.

I know I'm being a math nerd but it bugs me to compare $2.99 USD in 1977 with three dollars today. They're different dollars.

Also, it's not just Ogre in the new box, but G.E.V. and Shockwave as well, with their maps and everything.

Using a random CPI calculator I found on the web ( link ) …

Ogre 1977 $2.99 USD = 2011 $10.92 USD
G.E.V. 1978 $3.99 USD = 2011 13.54
Shockwave 1984 $3.95 USD = $8.41 USD

So the comparison should be $32.87 USD for the basic vs. $100 USD for the new version. For triple the price you get giant, thick, color counters and giant, color, mounted maps. Also, there are LADs and map overlays and stuff that wasn't in the original three products.

Can you imagine original 4x7" Ogre+G.E.V.+Shockwave published today for $33 USD? People would scream and wonder why it wasn't in color with mounted maps and a box for $60 USD, which I suppose is what's happening now.

Plus, it includes dice. With original Ogre you had to provide your own. Surely that's worth $97 USD in 1977 money?

I'm definitely getting one.

The cost of printing has certainly fallen, but I'm wondering if you could print and sell a game for $3 USD today, even one with Ogre modest physical demands. Sure there are little postcard wargames, but Ogre had a twelve page stapled rulebook. Interesting question.

Andrew

Looking back over the thread, I spot an error on my part. I wrote "Many publishers in the hobby games industry accept 5-to-1 ratios . . ."

That's not actually true. Some publishers do accept ratios that low, but *most* have ratios in the 7- or 8-to-1 range.

I should also point out that I only have certain knowledge of SJGames' ratio; my information for other publishers is second-hand at best.

I think the nays pretty well have it. For most of us, without the figs, we feels we are being cheated, and rightly so.

we feels we are being cheated,

Personal judgment and expression
(fair enough, 'cause "we wants what we wants")

…and rightly so.

unsupportable by objective facts
(the marketplace decides, not your personal mores)

I'll add that I personally don't want figures, but I recognise that by the very nature of this forum and where we are (there's a clue in what TMP stands for) some/most commenting here will want them. To compliment that attitude, on the BGG, a similar thread discussion has a higher interest on the design of the cardboard/chipboard counters.

For me personally I love the idea that this game will get another airing when it hits the shelves. I see the points raised by MrJ and his staff (who I think have excelled in continuing the discussion by providing comments and replies), and I understand their aims, but it's sad that a game I'd love to see rejuvenated and redesigned and back on the game tables may be priced beyond some of my younger associates who have always wanted to join in.

"it's sad that a game I'd love to see rejuvenated and redesigned and back on the game tables may be priced beyond some of my younger associates who have always wanted to join in."

Not only priced high, but planned to be quickly unavailable and obscure.

Caesar wrote:

"Not only priced high, but planned to be quickly unavailable and obscure."

Ogre 6e will have a tag that may induce sticker shock, that's for sure. However, we are printing enough -- "thousands" rather than "hundreds" -- to keep it in stock for 12-18 months. If we sell out significantly faster than anticipated (weeks rather than months), we'll look into a second print run.

"feeling cheated, and rightly so", how so? SJG aren't forcing you to buy the game. In fact, since it hasn't been published yet, and they are not taking pre-orders, there is no way anyone has spent nickel one for it yet. I don't see how that makes a "cheat" possible.

SJG have been completely upfront about what is and is not in the box, and why. You may dissagree about the why, and may wish the what was different, but you can't say they decieved you.

SJG is under obligation to make the game that any of us would consider the game "we" want. They are not, in point of fact, under obligation to make any games at all. If they wanted to they could shut down game making tomorrow and begin to persue lucrative careers as the first manufacturers of frozen sardine yoghurt on a stick.

If you don't like the products they make, don't buy them. If you don't like the prices they charge, don't pay them.

I still have not bought into Frag for these two reasons. It costs more than I want to pay for that sort of game.

I did buy Deluxe Ogre when it came out, even though I thought it similarly over priced. I knew I liked Ogre, and the game looked a lot nicer than flat black&white counters.

The new Ogre looks to be priced about right for what's in the box, and I know I like the product. Whether I like enough to shell out that kind of money for a game I already have several times over remains to be seen.

Personally plastic Ogre minis would not start to appeal to me until they were at least 1:72 scale model kits. I am not sure how practical those would be as gaming pieces.

15mm Ogres and vehicles in resin or metal I would snap up in a heart beat.