"Austrians Skirmishing?" Topic

I'm keen to get into Nappoleonics, but don't really know where I want to start, so I'm going to paint up some figs an and see how they grab me.

I'm going with 10mm and have my manufacturer picked out. I'm just want to know if the Austrians skirmished like the French and British? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I have read some of how these two forces worked, but have no concept of how the Austrians worked?

I really like Grenzers, but if anyone could pop a quick description out for line units, that would be great.

Did they detach one company per battalion or did they have specific battalions that split and supplied larger forces?

Any help would be great. I have three options for poses (advancing, firing, marching) and would like to make a (slightly) informed order.

The French and British had distinct "light" companies within each battalion while the Austrians did not.

In contrast they used Grenzer and Jägers and (from 1793) used 3rd rank men from line battalions as skirmishers.

I have seen lots of contradictory statements on how many of the 3rd rank were sent out to skirmish at any one time. The numbers may have been very small prior to 1808. Afer that the numbers would still have been small compared with the French and British, probably less than 10% of a line battalion at any time, but still more than before 1808.

Hence in General de Brigade half a company of Austrians (3 or 4 figures out of 36-48 figures) are allowed to skirmish, while Lasalle allows SK1 (2 figures) per battalion (36 other figures)

Grenzer uniform question: TMP link

Generally a good uniform source, Knotel: link

In theory Austrian line battalions could detach their entire third rank to act as skirmishers. This became part of their formal doctrine by 1809 – but I understand that the practice was widespread before this.

As to how many were actually deployed, I'd say the evidence is a lot less clear. I think often just the two flank companies deployed their third rank – that would be one-ninth of the battalion.

The third rank of line units were not as skilled as Jagers and Grenzers.

Unfortunately, my Warrior 24 is currently out of print, but I have gone into some depth on the subject there. Essentially, when we are talking about skirmishers in front of line troops, the Austrians were always perfectly capable of doing it and there is nothing mystical about sklirmishing anyway. The 1769 regs provdied the large Zugs drawn from company third ranks for a variety of purpsoes, but notably including Coburg's hit squads, which dealt with French skirmishers in 1793. There are several Instructions issued on this, most trying to limit the deployment of skirmishers to less than a third of a unit, but it was not unknown for whole regts to break out into open order. All the 1807 regs did was to formalise the training of the third rank as skirmishers – in a way that no French reg even does. However units did just deploy a company on occasion.

That is different from the light dutioesn performed by grenzers and Jaeger, notably as advance-guards often in two company units. This subject is extensively discussed (esp by Bill) at TMP link

Well, theory and practice tend to be different. In theory a British battalion would only throw out one company as skirmishers out of ten. But many it seem could throw out an additional centre company to thicken the line. I read it in a very good and detailed book about Redcoats, by a Scottish fellow, name forgets me, maybe Reid.. I met him in Malta in 97. I got the impression that it was not an official order but simply many units decided to train an extra company in the skirmish drill.

Thus even if in THEORY an Austrian line battalion could only deploy 10% in all likelyhood many units could probably field more. Thats just my tuppence worth. Factor in Jager battalions and Grenzers and I dont see why The Austrians could not have a decent sized skirmish line if needed.

In THEORY an Austrian line battalion could deploy 33% (the 3rd line), in practice (probably) they did not deploy that many

The Austrians could deploy in theory – a third of their unit into skirmishers – in case tactical circumstances demanded it.

the Exerzierreglement of 1807 porvides a recommondation how to do it and in the skirmishing firing line there might be only then 11 percent of the whole unit, but by that the firing could be prolonged there the skirmishing line could be replaced by skirmishing reserves.

How they finally did it – would depend again on tactical circumstances.

And they did well use them before 1807, as at Haslach Jungingen 1805 where Austrian skrirmishers attacked for example a French gun and took it.

I think Diadochi is confusing the numbers in the front screen with the numbers involved. Every nation used screens backed by supports and the regular orders to keep skirmishers down to 1/3 does suggest a tendecny to do more.

I'm not a fan of placing restrictions on the number of skirmishers each unit can produce – it sounds more like a fudge for ensuring Francophone & Anglophone bias than a realistic restriction. Not unless someone can come up with a proper historical basis for it anyway.

If gaming battles rather than small skirmishes the per battalion is a misleading number anyway as battalions and their skirmishers did not normally operate independently but as a Brigade+ with the skirmish line handled at that level too.
This is why you can easily find companies of riflemen attached to Brigades in the British & Prussian OOBs, certainly in the later years.

I haven't recently researched on the Austrian Brigade/Divisional standard OP, but doubt it would differ so greatly from the Prussian/Russian/French. Certainly handling skirmish protection for a Brigade by having ad hoc arrangements by each battalion would sound contrary to most other procedure I've read.

That's the use of large Zugs – as per the 1769 regs!

There is twenty years of combat being covered here, 1792 through 1814, so there isn't just one answer concerning the Austrians. However, in every conflict the Austrians could and did deploy large numbers of skrimishers.

In 1794 Colberg's Army in Holland deployed ALL of his third ranks as skirmishers during at least one battle and then many smaller combats. It was so striking that Charles in his 1796 Instructions references it concerning line troops skirmishing.

Duhesme praises the Austrian light infantry of the time, giving examples of how they bested the French.

"These advanced guards, well handled, only disputed their ground long enough to make us waste time and men. They brought us from one position to another till they reached that which they really meant to defend. There they let us use up and scatter our last battalions whose ardour generally shattered itself against their entrenchments. Then fresh troops issued from them in the most perfect order, they in their turn, threw out skirmishers upon our flanks, and thus they charged at advantage troops dispersed and fatigued, corps in disorder and unable to rally most of their men." Col. E. Lloyd 'A Review of the History of Infantry' 1908 page 201 quoting a 1864 reprint of Duheme's Essai historique sur l'Infantrerie Legere page 72.

In Italy in 1805--Several skirmish actions involving entire battalions: During Massena's advance on 29 October, after the battle of Caldiero, a battalion of the second Banal engaged "a column of French Voltigeurs" at Avesathale and maintained their position until noon, at which time the battalion received orders to retreat. At San Michele the vanguard of General Frimont, consisting of the St. George Warasdin battalions, fought the advancing enemy with great determination and then slowly pulled back into the position at Caldiero….

1809:
Several hundred Austrian skirmishers of IR 36 take French guns at Haslach as mentioned already.

The Austrian Army history Krieg 1809 is filled with examples of line troops skirmishing in conjunction with Grenz and Jagers or by themselves: Screening attacks, attacking a battleline alone and in conjunction with formed troops. Back in 1978 I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a copy of volumes II and IV--in German, of course, but the parts I did translate gave many examples. Here are some examples of line troops being deployed in large numbers, a battalion-sized group or more:

1. The third Zug of several line regiments are thrown foreward at the beginning of the battle (page 224, volume 2)

2. The IR33 deploys skirmishers during the engagement at Landshut, later together with IR3 they repeatedly deploy skirmishers at the orders of GM Radetsky.(vol. 2)

3. At Teugen-Hausen FML Lusignan throws out line infantry and the Peterwardein Grenzers who advance as skirmishers through Roith and across the Buchberg to engage the enemy. Lusignan then advances toward the sounds of this 'lively fire-fight' to support it.

4. In volume 2 and 4, there are numerous instances of line regiments reinforcing Jager and Grenzer skirmish lines which are advancing or in firefights with the French.

5. At Znaym, "The advanced pickets of the Mittrowsky IR10 engaged, and were supported by their battalion, and covered by a 12 pdr position battery, obstructed the enemy's advance, until one battalion of Kollowrath IR11, and two peices of ordnance came up." Later, "a second battalion was detached to the height, and a chain of riflemen formed, to force those of the enemy back into the village."

These practices only continue into and after 1812:

On October 16, 1813, skirmishers from Klenau's Corps fought for two hours against French tirailleurs. Several battalions were deployed or committed to the skirmishing.

Here is another example of 1814 accounts published in Mitteilungen des kuk Heeresmuseum (1902-1907) quoted by John Cook:

"An officer of the 3rd battalion of the !R63 Bianchi describes masses deploying skirmishers at Valeggio, Feb 14." "GM Stutterheim ordered . . .Our masses to send
"out skirmishshers from IR3 and IR4…and the firing was general. The enemy deployed gradually across a longer front and forced us to dissolve the masses into open order skirmish lines." (I cut some for length.)

This is just a sample. I have examples from each campaign the Austrians were engaged in, where they committed the third rank of several battalions or whole battalions, along with examples of Grenz and Jagers being used in similar fashion. How good the Austrians were at skirmishing can be debated, but that they did deploy line troops as skirmishers and at times in large numbers throughout the Napoleonic wars is pretty well documented.

Bill

Ooops

These two were from the same battle and their order should be reversed:

1. [Should be 2.] The third Zug of several line regiments are thrown foreward at the beginning of the battle (page 224, volume 2)

2. [Should be 1.] The IR33 deploys skirmishers during the engagement at Landshut, later together with IR3 they repeatedly deploy skirmishers at the orders of GM Radetsky.(vol. 2)

And I agree with 'JeffsaysHi'. The use of skirmishers was much more fluid than just a company or just a portion of the 3rd rank--for any army.

Bill

I would think in most armies that more than just the light company was trained to skirmish and actually used as the skirmish screen. If skirmishing was limited to just the light companies I think that they would get used up fairly quickly due to casualties and plain fatique.

As Dave Hollins said, "there is nothing magical about skirmishing."

There is also a school of thought that believes that it was easier to have the poorly or non-trained troops do the skirmishing since it actually takes more training and discipline to fight formed in column or line.

Americans seemed to be naturals at skirmishing (during the early part of the AWI) and it was remarked that Stirlimgs men at Brooklin/Long Island were exceptions in fighting formed.

Hope this helps.

v/r

joe

Joe,
which school thought was it. I always understand that it need skilled troops to skirmish. Also troops with a sense of own initiative.
gr
jan