"Austrian Grenzer uniforms" Topic

Hi all,

Can anybody tell me what the Austrian grenzers uniforms were at the battle of austerlitz?

From 1798 the Grenzers were supposed to wear the white feldmontur in the field, white tunic and blue Hungarian breeches, red cloak on the pack, with either black or white belts. The brown tunics were not worn in the field until after 1809.

See Grenz at Austerlitz on my site here:

link

When did the Grenz switch to brown uniforms?
When did the Austrians stop using Grenzers or did they just put them in different uniforms?
Thanks,
Mike

The Grenz always had a brown uniform – the 'Hausmontur', which they wore while on frontier duty at home and which they had to supply themselves. Only when called for duty with the field armies did they wear a white uniform, supplied by the Austrian Army.

After 1809 a brown uniform was developed for both field frontier garrison service. It was phased in over the next few years.

The Szekler Grenzregiments were disbanded in 1851 after they went over to the Hungarians in the 1848 revolt. Fears over Grenzer reliability and their decreasing importance due to a steady and very considerable increase in regular Jagers led to the rest being disbanded between 1871-73. The Military Border as an institution was ended in 1881.

- After 1809 a brown uniform was developed for both field frontier garrison service. It was phased in over the next few years. –

Besides Dave Hollins books, is there other sources that confirm that no Grenz regiment were in brown in 1809? I know that Haythornthwaite and Hourtoulle show some regiments in brown in 1809, so I'm not sure who to believe.

Now that we have established they wore white uniforms at Austerlitz, would I be right in saying they also had a peak to their shako's?

According to Hollins, peaks could be found on the Klobuk from 1801.

The regulation creating the new uniform was only issued at the end of August 1808. That seems a bit too late for the brown to be in significant use in the 1809 campaign, especially as Haythornthwaite quotes Knotel as saying that by 1812 only 4 regiments out of 11 had switched to the brown.

Is there any chance that some Grenzer regiments had to show up for service in Bavaria/Austria wearing their brown Hausmontur because of a last minute shortage of white Feldmontur or some problem with their distributon? That would explain part of the confusion around the white/brown question. Please enlighten me because it's just a theory (I'm not backed up by any reliable source here). :)

In Osprey's MAA299, Dave Hollins states that

- the difficulty in supplying the whole army in supply and the tendency to stay with traditionnal costume meant that most Grenz wore a combination of traditionnal dress and regulation uniforms –

and later,

- the gradual changeover and introduction of the 1808 pattern made for a multiplicity of styles and colours for the rest of the period -

So it's quite possible that there was a shortage of the white Feldmontur in 1809, or that some units simply wore their Hausmontur in battle out of choice. Given the lack of respect Grenz faced from their own army, shortages of uniforms would seem even more likely.

I think we would be surprised by the lack of uniformity in Grenz regiments throughout the period.

Does anyone know the facing colors for the Grenz regiments in the early period – say 1790's up to Austerlitz? Terry

"Now that we have established they wore white uniforms at Austerlitz …"

Not so fast there on that assumption.

The Hourtoulle book indicates that one regiment of Grenzers wore brown, and the other wore white. Actually, it may have been the Szeklers in white and the Grenz in Brown. I don't have my books in front of me here at work, so I can't tell you which is which.

Like I said before, I think that even within the same Grenz regiments, diversity must had been the order of the day for the whole period (I still paint all my Grenz in brown because they look so good, and I need to paint something else than white).

About Hourtoulle…I love the books and everything, but you can find quite a few mistakes as far as uniforms are concerned (especially Austrians), not a definitive source by any means (but pretty, pretty uniform plates).

Iannick
Clash of Empires link

Hourtoulle shows the Broder Frontier Regt in white coat and red facings (turnbacks, collar and cuffs). Szekler Regt #1 is in brown coat with white facings; and Szekler Regt #2 is in brown coat with yellow facings. He also shows Szekler Regt #2 "in peacetime uniform" of white coat, light red or pink facings. I take it to mean that this uniform was not worn at Austerlitz. The shakoes in the pictures do not appear to have peaks.

In my copy of "Napoleon et la Russie" by Tranie and Carmigniani, the same uniform colors are shown as in the Hourtoulle book.

Two different sources showing the same uniform is good enough for me, so that's the way that I'm painting my Grenzers for Austerlitz.

Good, thank you. It is a well known fact that Brown Grenz coats help prevent snow blindness for people painting Austrian armys.
I have been activly trying to ignore recent postings that suggested they wore white on campaign. However correct that point may be. Because, like wot Archiduc said. (plus I've just finishing about a 150 figure addition to my Austrians and apart for the Grenz, some officers and 4 lancers the rest are white coat and pants. Oh and 16 pairs of dragoon legs.)
Another point that I've been reluctant to raise is, I've noticed games photos recently with Grenz wearing black cross belts. Please tell me this isn't a established historical fact as I've just finished my regiment with white ones.
regards
Max

I am not returning, but it seems important to me that if I have made an error in a book someone has paid for, then I should endeavour to correct any misunderstanding.

Terry37 – In the word reduction process, the title of that facings caption got mangled. It should have said that it was thye facing colours with changes after 1807 (the year of the great Border refoms). Thus the list is correct for the entire period from 1769 to 1816.

It is now 12 years since I wrote MAA299 and it has been possible to do some more work on the Frontier – the result is mainly MAA413 Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-98, if any of you are interested in the earlier period (which is more colourful).

Now to the vexed question of uniform colours. The Vienna authorities provided much of the field uniform for two (1805:3) battalions and one reserve battalion per Regiment. The uniforms were replaced on a rolling programme of one third every two years and thus complete replacement every 6 years. This meant that it was only in 1805 that the authorities could put battalions (of 4 cos that year) into the field of uniform appearance.

As SQP says, the actual single uniform regualtion dates from late 1808 and consequently, the field uniform prior to that was the white uniform (which should answer the Austerlitz question). The changeover dates are from Wrede's 5 vol work on the army, which follows the regs through. he says "1809" for the Deutsch-Banat, but you can imagine the questions, which would follow! Given the changeover period and the desperate shortage of money in the Empire at the time, it seemed sensible to say 1810 for the DB to avoid confusion.

The supply by the Imperial authorities is always at the heart of the problem as the Grenzers had to supply some bits of field kit and nearly all of the Frontier uniform themselves. Black belts were decreeed in 1798, but all the evidence and the obvious fact that line infantry did not use them points to black belts only coming in post-1809 as part fo the new uniform. Grenzers woudl use often use their own kit – notably leather knapsacks rather than official backpacks as well as carrying Balkan knives.

So, make your troops pre-1805 rather uneven in look and even after, allow for some differences. There is an illustration provided to me by Alfred Umhey and shown in b/w in the Infantry Warrior p.28, which shows the troops in 1805. One Grenzer on the left is in a brown jacket with the pink Szeckler facings – HOWEVER this appears to be a post-war illustration and like you guys painting figures, many artists like to vary things. Unless a battalion is including troops drawn from deeper reserves than the reserve battalion (eg: some of the composite battalions of the 1790s or many of the troops facing Marmont in 1809), they should have the Imperial uniforms – ie: white up to 1809.

The Klobuks start to get peaks from about 1801 and by 1805 would have been universal, but they do not seem to have had the pom-pon at the top, just the central rose and strapping.

Flags were issued, but do not appear to have been carried on campaign. The Seressaner did not deploy in the field in the period. The Hausmontur uniforms did not include coloured turnbacks, just cuffs and collars.

Fritz, I'm, afraiod that the repetition of a single source in multiple versions is not the same as independent sources. The derivation here is Ottenfeld copying the 1808 reg, which is henm copied by Knotel and so on into haythornthwaite and Hourtoulle (althouh somehow I don't suppose anyone would use a recent Austrian book as a source for French uniforms?).

Anyway, hope that clears it all up and that's it. Bye.

Yes. Thanks for the help Dave.

Great thing to see you, Dave, contributing again (even if exceptionally).
You brought a problem to the forefront at the end of your answer: multiple uniformology sources that all are based on a common one from the past (that may be mistaken and consequently that mistake spreads). Is there (or would you have built one for your own use) a schema of the different uniformologic sources contemporary to the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars and the way their information was taken by other illustrators as time went by (until the current sources we have available)? If not, wouldn't you think one of the Napoleonic communities on the Internet could start such a project for everyone's benefit?

Dave Hollins, Many thanks for your reply and for clarifying about the facing color chart in your book. I'll amend my copy. Just great info!!!! Thanks, Terry

In my last post I used the word "schema", but I guess "matrix" would be more appropriate in English to describe what I'm talking about.
Le très francophone Trokoshea. ;-)

Regarding the headgear, is it correct then that grenzer wore the klobuk from the early revolutionary period onwards or did they wear the "normal" austrian kasket?
And what did officers wear?

I usually paint my Austrian Grenzer units with the brown jackets,to distinguish them from other units. Just for gaming purposes.

Brownbear

No helmets, klobuk then peaked klobuk throughout. Grenzer officers usually wore bicorne or, later, the standard pattern officer's shako.

K

From which Year the klobuk was worn as I have seen pictures of grenz troops in kasket ie the "normal" austrian headgear until the introduction of the helmet (so probably 1792-1799/1801)

Tschaikisten Grenzers & Seressaner Scouts…..

I painted up the Tschaik Grenzers as my 18th Grenzer Reg't, gave them the Osprey# 299, circa 1813 unfiforms, as this version(1813), was the only one that conformed to the style of Grenzer uniforms. The Tschaik Grenzers, also do double-duty as Austrian Pontoonier companies!

Anyone have an idea about which kind of 15mm miniature figure to use to create a company or two of Seransasser Scouts? They wore a very traditional Croatian/Turkish style of dress, probably could use a 16th c/17th c./or even an early 18th c. Croatian/Ottoman Empire 15mm miniature figure, any ideas from the Forum?

Wayne