"Poor attitude from Khurusan Miniatures" Topic

I recently asked some – I thought – quite reasonable questions of a trader following a post advertising their, I have to say, very nice figures.

The question concerned distribution out side of the US as buying across the atlantic can be very expensive. Not the traders fault, I grant you. Not anyones fault either (except HM customs and excise, governments etc) but one I was concerned about: the costs incurred adding 80%-90% to my projected $60 USD order via postal and handling etc. I wanted to see if there was an alternative route.

The trader in question – Khurusan Miniatures – couldn't even be botherd to answer the question. I fairly gently gave it around three prompts and finally said "ok I'm pulling out of this thread" as – while Khurusan was answering other enquiries, he rather obviously wasn't answering mine.

I think Khurusan Miniatures' approach to handling questions about his shipping systems is fairly strange and, frankly, rather counter productive to his business – that of selling toys to people. Irrespective of whether a manufacturer has answered a question like mine before (a simple link to "I've already stated my case on this link here" would have been more helpful than silence) is it unreasonable to expect some sort of reply? But… what do I know.

Perhaps my approach to Formus is too much like my approach to email, but in all of my dealings on forums in general, and this one in particular, I've always adopted the same attitude to a forum enquiry as I have an email enquiry.

Oh well. This is a hobby industry and I have never started a thread like this one in the past – I figure we are all trying to help each other out a bit – so this is a first for me but I'll confess Khurusan Miniatures are now on my snubbed list and off of my purchasing list! Shame: like I said, very nice figures but I can't really be doing with that level of rudeness.

Has anyone else encountered a similar problem with this manufacturer (or any other manufacturer). Or is it just me?*

John T

* Which is quite possible I'm sure

Khurusan is not a bad guy. However I may understand your frustration of not getting the courtesy of an answer.

They can be a lot of reasons why you didn't get one that do not relate to a "poor attitude".

I'm sure Khurusan will find an opportunity to dissipate the misunderstanding and you both can put this behind with no bitter feeling.

Helmet

John, you were asking a question 'Is there a UK/EU distributor' to which you already knew the answer 'No there is not'. What you were coming across as asking (in my opinion) was 'Why don't you set up a distributor so I don't have to pay the ridiculous fees my Gov't charges me?'

I am guessing Khurusan, as a small business, felt he could not ever answer that question to your satisfaction. He does not do enough business and already operates close to the margins. Giving a distributor his product at what would be close to a loss so that they could apply the appropriate mark ups and make a profit that he would then miss out on probably does not seem like a good decision to him. I obviously am guessing at all this but would bet I am close to the mark.

So, he chose to not answer, knowing any answer would have likely lead to more questions that you and others already knew the real answers to.

I again am guessing he saw your question as a trap with no real answer that would leave you satisfied, so he blew it off.

Just my take…

Jake

Thanks Jake and Helmet101: I appreciate it.

Last thing I want to do is trap people. Just trying to buy some more toys!

John T

It sounds as if (as you in fact suspect) you are expecting too much from public discussion threads. Simply put, discussions that can be had by email don't always translate well into public and permanent forum discussions – something I have myself learned to my detriment. If I were you, I would have emailed Khurusan privately before posting something like this, which essentially backs them into a rather well-lit corner.

Cheers,

Christopher

I agree with CA TenWolde: I think a private e-mail would have been the way forward. Khurasan are always very good at answering e-mails, and I have always found them a pleasure to deal with…and I have bought quite a bit from them!

VB

I'm curious. You planned a $60 USD order. So I'd estimate that at no more than 10 packs. Using the US post office odds are that could be shipped for $14 USD to (almost) anywhere in the world including the UK where your profile indicates you live. You seem to indicate shipping would be $50 USD or so. Are you asking for courier or other special shipping?

Not trying to stir the pot just wondering where that exceptional shipping estimate came from?

Others have already said most of what needs to be said, but I'll add that you do have 5 stifles. Ever think that for one reason or another, he might be one of them, and never saw your posts?

Khurasan has always provided friendly, exceptional service to me and my friends. I have engaged in private discourse with the owner as well, and he is a gentleman.

I agree with the statement that "you are expecting too much form public discussion threads."

Extra Crispy,
I think the concern John has is that UK customs policies tack on large costs to orders coming into the UK. It is not that Khurasan's shipping is high; it is that the UK's customs charges are high.

John,
I would humbly suggest that boycotting a company that did not answer your question on a public forum is perhaps a bit unfair as he may not have noticed it or any of 100 other reasons we could all come up with.

In Johns defense, I also asked the question in the same thread I was not aware if he did or did not have a UK/European distributer, and my query was not answered either – I assumed with no answer that it was a no though, though it would not have taken much effort to say sorry not at this time though I ship at these prices etc

With the current weak punnd, post office fees and VAT prices (going to 20% in Jan) it does put me off ordering for the USA to the UK

I do wish there was some way to get a cheap way for small companies to be able to distribute there product acroos the pond, in either direction, this would help small companies and in a way each countries economies – maybe there is a opportunity for someone to set something up

Al

Thanks again for the feedback

In reverse order

Battleworks. Up until I stiffled Khurasan I had 4 stifles. I now have 5. Who knows. but I doubt it (though I may well be stifled by him now!).

Extra crispy, the thread I was on related that a $60 USD order encountered around $50 USD comprised of postage from the manufacturer (entirely legitimate, as I said in the other thread), UK import duties and UK Postal handling charges. This is based on my recent order from Litko where similar levels of fees added to the order.

Vis Bellica and CATenWolde. Yep: perhaps I do expect too much from public forums. I wanted to see, though, how much response I got from other forum users outside of the US to the issue, and I did get some useful feedback, and I wouldn't have got that from a point-to-point email to the manufacturer.

I think we have to be honest here, though. I'm speaking as a person who, as one of the show organisers of Salute for many years*, and someone who has used this forum to promote a rule system I've written. I think we have to be honest when I say that 'not all posts are equal'. Some posts are simple questions asked of other users or discussions amongst gamers, and we're all free to answer them or not as we chose. Freedom of speach and all that. Alternatively, some are adverts for a new product or service. And let me repeat – I've operated both sides of this.

I just think that when a post is made that falls into the latter category, it probably warrents a different response to a general discussion post. But perhaps that's just me.

Anyway, I just wanted to guage whether I was slipping into paranoia with this and all of your answers have been helpful.

John T

* That's probably where I picked up most of the 4 stifles I had!

I am thinking he didn't see your question or that of the other fellow. You need to Email him and give us the report.

Good Luck!

Hang on a mo, surely this isn't John "Hammers Slammers" Treadaway, is it?

Who is quite friendly with many of the UK manufacturers of 15mm NF models? Who would in turn benefit from it being pointed out that ordering models from the States can be more expensive (though I should point out, if done correctly, usually orders of less than £25, can actually be cheaper)?

I again am guessing he saw your question as a trap with no real answer that would leave you satisfied,

Quite, seems like a classic wind-up to me.

Re. import duties / customs charges, that's a very real problem. I sent some minis from the US to a UK painter and was stung with a charge nearly the amount of the order. So, I can understand that John's question is an urgent one.

porfirio rubirosa

Yes – of course it's me. I cunningly hide my machiavellian schemes behind my actual, er… name as my log on.

I don't do wind up. What I was trying to do was buy some 15mm figures to keep abreast of stuff offered from manufacturers other than Old Crow and GZG, people I usually BUY from. and – like just about everyone else on this forum, I was trying to see if there was anyway I could retain more cash to spend on toys, and give away less cash to the Post Office and Customs.

Do you not think – if I were trying to do something else – I'd make up a silly name* to log on and pose my question?

Jeez…

John T

PS – as I said earlier, I've obviously been guilty of judging others by my own standards. 'Wind up'? Seems I'm not the only one…

* well, sillier than the one I was christened with!

Well, that certainly explains everything. After all, someone who organizes UK shows and is mates with many of the UK manufacturers certainly would not stand to benefit from tossing a stink bomb into a thread announcing new NF product from a manufacturer in the States.

Thanks for sorting that for us.

Well, that certainly explains everything. After all, someone who organizes UK shows and is mates with many of the UK manufacturers certainly would not stand to benefit from tossing a stink bomb into a thread announcing new NF product from a manufacturer in the States.

Thanks for sorting that for us.

oh get a life! He was trying to avoid the ridiculous charges the UK customer gets on imports, not trying to stop sales for American companies. Sheesh. Yes, the whole world is against you. Muppet. Rolls eyes.

porfirio rubirosa

You are far too suspicious and are making the mistake of – as I said earlier – judging me by your standards. Like I said, I can't criticise: that was my mistake too.

Do you not think, though, that if I had a big plan along the lines that you speculate on, I would not have been a little less honest and upfront?

I may be stupid, but I'm smarter than that.

Seriously, how easy is it – as many have – to get more than one log on to TMP and throw my (imagined by you) ‘stink bombs' from the safety of anonymity that so many (ahem) avail themselves of?

Come on: think it through…

John T

Oh good lord everyone stop looking for Black Helicopters and take off the Tinfoil hats.

Both John and Khurasan are class acts.

Before we start slinging mud, please email Khurasan and ask directly before whining about it on another forum completely.

TMP is NOT Khurasan's forum,and like many manufacturers, he comes here and answers questions out of courtesy, as well as to provide greater exposure to his product.

I have always gotten Stellar service from Khurasan (And GZG, And Rebel Minis, And Top Gun Marketing and Micropanzer, and Critical Mass)

Finally, once a thread drops off the front page I never go back. So I have had cases where a I post on a thread on Tuesday and don't ever see a question posted later.

Porfirio, you wouldn't have any ulterior motives would you??? Maybe we need to look at your relationship with US manufacturers??? Do you know of them? Any personally? have you ever bought from Khurasan? Do you buy from others?

Khurasan could take this thread into his own hands and just answer the guys question. It would then all go away.

I know that is what Lon at Brigade would do. I think, for me at least , he sets the bar.

This is a very silly thread, really.

This is my Interpretive Digital version of this thread:

picture

Only Warlock

Well, it did make me smile! Thankyou.

I'm sure, at some point, your advice will be heeded by one or both of us.

John T

Does anyone manufacture 15mm Undead Golfers with a facepalm pose?

Preferably in the UK, for reasons that I trust no longer need stating.

OMG Pierce. I would SO pay for that. With any amount of shipping,

I tried to answer this last time. Seems to me the real issue is folks not wanting to pay Royal Mail all their special customs fees, for which none of us blaim you, but this is something that no US seller can correct. These cost stop many peopel in the UK from ordering from the US and hurt US businesses quite a bit in lost sales, but that is not going to change and there are few options around it that make financial sense, especially in this poor economy. Setting up distribution of one's products or production of one's products overseas is very expensive. John, I think you know that very well. Most of the small UK companies don't do it for the same reason the US Companies don't do it, it's too expensive and magins are too tight. Why we have to keep beating the same dead horse is perplexing and casting about snide comments by any of us helps none of us. Can we please just leave it at Khurasan does not currently have a UK distributor and you need to order directly and call it a day? We all need to put our overly sensitive egos away (mine included) and go back to enjoying our hobby and stop tilting windmills (Royal Mail) that none of us can change.

Shakes head and walks away.

Jeff

Good one, Warlock. Been there and done that at both ends and shall do it a again. Need to get out right now and run-a-round the block a few times. Hee, hee…

Be back soon…

All

Jeff – windmills and a goodpoint. However, more to find an answer to the problem rather than prove I'm not poking for the sake of it, are their other solutions rather than distrtibution networks?

Lots of historical manufacturers of heavy stuff like lead* and resin have licenced moulds to other manufacturers in other locations, cross advertising to some extent, and sell to local markets via locally moulded product. For example, I know Eureka have an arrangement with GZG's 28mm material (which – even GZG don't make anymore – this being outed to Daemonscape)

In an ideal world, that would work great – for the customer at least – and The Royal mail could build as many windmills as they like and none of us could care a tinker's cuss.

Just a thought (and obviously one that only addresses my original concerns rather than my issue with Khurusan Miniatures and answering questions of forums).

John T

*I'm thinking, say, Old Glory (which I think operates on this model)

So … no one just has the package shipped to a friend in the States and then has the friend mail them the package as a customs-free "gift" … right? Good, glad to see everyone toeing the line! ;)

CATenWolde – I tried that once with some mororcycle gloves from the US which, if I understand VAT (which I don't much) are probably VAT zero as they are protective clothing. Still got hammered!

John T

PS – Well – this has increased my number of stifles to 11! I guess I have my question answered as to whether people think I'm being reasonable about this…

PS – Well – this has increased my number of stifles to 11! I guess I have my question answered as to whether people think I'm being reasonable about this

I don't care one way or another.

You may have gone over the edge with the the thread subject. You would have been better off by simply starting a thread asking why some US companies don't have UK distributors and not just slapping one guy down. But don't lose sleep over it.

Do you really think your threads so important that those 11 will suffer the consequences??? Lol…

Good points all.

Combat Painter – that's undoubtedly a two way street – by which I mean that many UK manufacturers might benefit from distribution – or licenced manufacture – in the US and elsewhere, but…

Thankyou everyone for providing feedback of whatever nature. I spent half a dozen years reading 1000 feedback forms from Salute and I've learnt that even the stuff I don't like is still valuable input.

I think I'll leave this one alone now.

John T

Sounds like you might consider a little Tea Party of your own.

They are quite popular on this side of the pond.

The real question is…

Why ask a question on a public forum, hoping that the vendor will see it, instead of direct to the vendor via email?

As a vendor I'm a bit curious.

I'm always a bit surprised at these kind of topics. I'd think you'd get a better response going direct with private email.

Ed. I was trying to back out of this but you have asked a valid question and – if I'm going to criticise others for not answering what I consider to be a similarly valid question – I'd be a hypocrite if I did the same. And I'm not going to be that.

The reason initially was simple.

As I said above, on the original thread I asked Khurusan Miniatures in a public way initially because I wanted to engage others in my question (it being) "How can I get this stuff outside of the US other than direct from the UK, the costs of which are crippling". Crippling to the customer, that is. The answers I got – granted from other people – made that approach, I thought, moderately worthwhile.

This thread was to see what in turn other gamer's reaction was to my feelings about – as one poster put it on the other thread – being snubbed when I asked a question of a manufacturer.

I think this thread has thrown up some interesting responses, including some bizarre "more brits ganging up on the Americans" stuff (I'm paraphrasing) and "I suspect you have a hidden agenda" (hiding sneakily behind my nom du guerre…). Again, I'm paraphrasing.

Even if this thread has thrown up nothing but that stuff, I am still ‘edified' by what has been said (though granted not always in the way I was expecting).

TimoUK – I'd certainly get a different response, I grant you, and – as I hinted at earlier – that's and approach that will probably have to be persued.

John T

Seems like the actual title of the post is meant more as an attack/criticism on Khurasan. I think there are better ways to generate feedback and discourse than starting it off with that…

I got a public handslap by a manufacturer once because I asked a question about a product on TMP. It wasn't a question or comment about service, quality, or anything else. There was simply some metal attached to a figure, and I wanted to know if it was supposed to leave it, or snip it off. I only asked on TMP because I knew I'd get an answer in five minutes, and didn't want to bother the company.

In your situation, since you specifically want the manufacturer's answer, its better to contact the them directly, THEN if they don't answer, gripe. Seems like you jumped the gun which usually seems to have an ulterior motive of casting the manufacturer in a bad light.

Considering a forum question to be on par with a direct email question is absurd IMO.

John – Thanks for the answer. I was wondering as I've had gamers ask rules questions on TMP, instead of directly to the group.
With the volume of messages on TMP I'm sure I've missed some as well.
Thanks again,
Ed

OK – a couple more then: Prince Alberts Revenge – the title of this post IS aimed as a criticsm of Khurasan: I don't think ignoring a question is the right way to go about things so yes, I am criticising him. Not for his product, for his manners. It's not something I would do so I wanted to gain other perspectives, hense this post.

Dr Mathias, thankyou for adding to the perspective. While a number of posters have agreed largely with what I've said, more have probably not. While I don't think that makes my perspective 'absurd', any more than I think yours is, I do accept I'm probably in a minority.

Ed TTHWG & Dr Mathias – I just think that asking public questions of subjects that have a public interest is a valid approach. Whether it's metal that needs removing from figures or not; or whether it concernes availability of products at best prices in other countries (gee – how many people raise topics on that one: ask Wargames Foundry!) or whether it's about the etiquette of whether to answer a direct question or to ignore it, it's something that is potentially of interest, I believe, to more than two people.

Ultimately, I guess it depends what one thinks a forum such as this is 'for'. If criticism is unnaceptable, what's the point? If it's unfounded criticism, let's dicuss it. Too many people, I suspect (and I'm not including people who've posted here) have, in the past, used forums just to troll and poke at people and – based on that experience, there is an assumption that this is what everyone does. Pehaps that's why Khurusan didn't awnser my intial question but patently ignored it, thinking it was some kind of trap.

All I can restate is, using my real name, why on earth would I do that on a public forum? People who do that do tend to call themselves something else (and I suspect we all know a fare few that do: I certainly do).

I just ain't one of 'em.

And on that note…

All (on both sides of the atlantic), I for one have answered probably all I can from my perspective and so I genuinely think I have said enough. A good double handful would probably say *more* than enough (13 stifles and counting).

It's now two long threads and I know it's a lot to read. So I really do want to lower myself out of this one…

If anyone wishes, they can email me: I'm not hard to find.

John T

And for how long did you await a reply, before starting this thread…?

If a similar question had been asked in the open of most other manufacturers, would they necessarily have replied…?

If a similar question had been asked in the open of most other manufacturers, would they necessarily have replied…?

If they even see it. I can't even find the other thread they were talking about.
Found it!

Generally I regard a forum as a place to say what I want, not what others want me to say (and not saying anything is also my choice) so whilst not getting an answer might be irritating, it is not so irritating that I would get upset about it. So views differ.

There is no real way to save on the VAT of goods coming into the UK from outside the EU, someone has to pay it, be it a distributor or retail customer. A distributor is another link in the chain that needs to be 'fed' (put their percentage on the deal) and usually they get a trade discount (so the US manufacturer gets less money) so all in all (unless the UK distributor can find UK customers for the US supplier) there appears to be no benefit for customer or manufacturer to have a UK distributor.

So seems a strange thing to get worked up about.

"So seems a strange thing to get worked up about."

Yes, I agree and iirc Khurasan's trading model is hardly news to anyone on TMP. If you want 'em buy direct.

Heather thinks Jon at Khurasan is a real gentleman, though Mr Tuffley is and will always be her real love.

I take into account the shipping charges with all my online purchases be it ordering from a manufacturer at home or overseas or bidding on Ebay, in order to establish a true cost per unit.

I admit to buying a lot from Khurasan and am happy to continue with what I think are reasonable shipping charges.

Only once in two years have I been hit with a Customs charge on any overseas package of 15mm Sci Fi miniatures. It happens.

Cheers
Mark

I have encountered the occasional snooty manufacturer:

TMP link

Dan