"Preferred skirmish-level game?" Topic

After promising myself to stay away from WWII games, I now find myself with about 20 US infantry for North West Europe 1944-45 (Eureka's Pulpitations), a Stuart tank (possibly haunted), 25 German infantry (Bolt Action plastics) and a StuG III (all 1/56 or 28mm size).

What are your preferred rules for gaming squad level games (one figure = one man or vehicle)? Which ruleset should earn my hard-earned money? (ok – I'm a civil servant, so it's not THAT hard earned!)

I've also got loads of WWI and interwar figures, so something expandable to skirmish gaming in earlier eras would be nice!

And yes, I know it has been at least an hour since this was last asked!

…well I was thinking about it.

You could try Troops Weapons & Tactics from the Lardies. Played may games with these and they flow really well, handle a platoon plus supports each side easily enough and although they are designed to use 'blinds' for hidden (unspotted) movement, I do use them solo too.

There has to be fifty prior threads on this subject if there's one.

There are only a few purely skirmish games. Skirmish game = operational unit is a single man. NUTS and Patrol are the only ones I have played.

There are a few more small unit games -- operational unit is a squad -- I prefer Rules of Engagement in that genera.

I still like Disposable Heroes. Lardies TW&T is also a good one.

Troops Weapons and Tactics is my favourite

Have a look at Tyneside Wargame's club rules WWII skirmish:

link

There's also '1945', available on free download from the Wargames Journal website. It's a WWII version of their very good '5.56mm' modern skirmish system.

a Stuart tank (possibly haunted)

That happens to those a lot – makes them death to Tigers, Stukas, even the odd submarine or dinosaur. :)

On a related note, if you're interested in doing a four-color comic book version of WW2, SuperSystem works pretty well for it. Do the main characters (haunted tanks, indestructible sargeants, GI robots) as regular models, and normal troops and even vehicles as henchmen groups. Unrealistic, but it sure captures the feel of the old war comics well.

My current favorite is Rate of fire from Crusader Rules.

The only downside is the armor rules are in book 2. The upside is that book's due anytime now AND you can still download the playtest rules for free.

Rules of Engagement

Thanks for the suggestions. I know that there are many sets that are designed for about this level – I'm hoping to tap into the collective experience here to find the ones that TMPers regularly use and enjoy. Based on the suggestions so far, I'll try TW&T, but looking forward to reading further suggestions for the games actually used and enjoyed by TMPers!

Battleground WWII if each player is going to run just a single squad. Arc of Fire if running a platoon.

Troops, Weapons & Tactics would be recommendation too.

Rules of Engagement.

Even if you don't decide to go the RoE route, it is a great hardcover book well worth the $30 USD bucks I paid for it so you wont regret giving it a shot.

Willthepiper:
You might also look into Battleground WW II, an old game and now out of print but still readily available in P.D.F. form. T.W.& T. and I.A.B.S.M by Two Fat Lardies are good rules too!
Rod Robertson.

Chain Reaction III from Two Hour Wargames is free, so you can see if you like it before committing to the 'Nuts!' WW2 expansion… not that it is expensive either.

I've been approaching the subject for the last year, still not settled on exactly how to do it. "Skirmish" seems to cover two distinct sizes -- individuals, or small units.

Reading Nuts!, I was left completely charmed by the potential of Skirmish with individuals. I want to run a squad, have them face a few half-squads, and be concerned about casualties, who's got which weapons, and battlefield experience. I'm especially intrigued by the potential to play this game as cooperative play, us against the system. And all the loose ends that left me daunted in Nuts were neatly wrapped up in the THW scenario book "The Big Hurt" -- it's my current target for painting miniatures.

Small units systems, like in Disposable Heroes and TW&T, have not enchanted me because I'm having trouble accepting the random "who's little unit gets to go next" syndrome. The rules would play fast, you'd have more toys on the table, but it just isn't scratching the itch I've been trying to reach.

I have not reached a conclusion yet. I think a great time could be had by any game if you're surrounded by the right people.

Good analysis, thosmoss – and bang on with the comment about gaming with the right people!

I realise now that I used the wrong terminology when I said "skirmish"; I'm looking to game with individually based miniatures, on the order of 20 to 30 on each side, say 30-50 total on the table, one platoon per side plus one vehicle. The models will probably have to be grouped into squads or fireteams because individually activating each rifleman will be tedious.

Thanks again for the responses – gives me lots to consider.

Another vote for Rules of Engagement for smooth games of around a couple of hours where tactics really count!

Otherwise, if your after a more role playing type style of a game, ie with ammo counts etc, then Final Combat is worth a look at. Sold on Lulu.com by Britons Publishing.

We are trying out Flying Lead from ganesha games. So far very good.

OK, for a platoon or so then I'd go with either TW&T or Arc of Fire. It depends how much friction you like in your games and how you like it to be modelled.

Nuts! or Dispo Heroes…

For what it's worth, after a long haitus, I played a DH/CF7B game this past Friday. It was fun, and we threw a lot of vehicles into the game – relatively speaking. Just for the heck of it; being set in an urban enviornment, it actually worked fairly well. Most of the vehicles hid behind buildings trying to to stay out of LOS. The turn is iniative based, with all units alternating actions (move, shoot, assault, etc.). Pretty straight foward – some charts for vehicle hits, etc. I'd be willing to try the other rules mentioned too. Regards, Dean

Beyond any doubt (for me, at least) NUTS!

Tom

Whoo-hoo! Found a local gamer who is willing to walk me through a TW&T scenario. Won't be until November, but looking forward to trying it and forming my own opinions.

I've played a lot of different skirmish systems -- Battleground WW2, Patrol, DH, and others. By far my favorite system is NUTS.

NUTS! is a squad-level WW2 skirmish game based on THW's "Chain Reaction" rule system, which eliminates many of the disadvantages of standard IGOUGO systems. In the game each player basically plays a squad leader, and starts the game with a core squad or vehicle that is "his" for the game or the campaign. Moral/training is represented by "Reputation" levels for each figure or unit, running from 1-6, which are the target numbers for dice rolls in the game. Each figure is an individual in the game, each vehicle is crewed by individual figures (TC, Driver, Gunner, etc.)that have a role in the operation of the vehicle and make relevant dice rolls for morale, shooting, crossing obstacles, and so on.

The leader figure has some special advantages, and each figure in the core squad has a special attribute like "Crack Shot" or "Poser" which helps or hurts in certain situations, so there's a light roleplaying element. The system scales well to platoon vs platoon level games, but like most skirmish games doesn't scale easily to company sized games.

The Chain Reaction system uses leadership rolls to determine who goes first (and certain dice combinations result in reinforcement rolls during the game), but during any given action phase figures will react to developments on the table based on the "Reaction" table system. Figures that see an enemy move into line of sight will take a "In Sight" test, for example to see what their reaction is – do they make aimed fire, do they take a snapshot, do they fail to react? Figures that come under fire make a "Received Fire" test to see if they shoot back, duck for cover, panic and run, etc.

Firefights are also conducted through resolution, until one side "wins" by killing the other side or forcing them to duck out of the fight. This means that figures engaged in combat *always* take some kind of action, there's never a time in the game where you're lined up to nail your opponent…but your card didn't come up in time and you stood there and got shot, or the guy playing the "leader" didn't have enough action points to let your unit move.

So there's always a good flow to the game, and you don't have total control over your figures. I recall one game, from the "Kampfgruppe Peiper" Battle of the Bulge campaign book in which I had a concealed US 57mm ATG, and a Panther tank was approaching down a road. As a player I planned to take the shot after the Panther turned to follow a bend in the road and take a flank shot…but the "In Sight" test for the unit meant they blew the ambush by firing on it frontally. Doh! They must have panicked and shot as soon as the scary tank approached.

Don't get me wrong, tanks *are* scary and get a good treatment in the rules as well. Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a tank assault!

The system also incorporates a campaign and mission builder system, so you can see your troops gain experience and raise their Reputation level up in the game (or they may lower their Rep if they run away!), replacements for lost figures, battle and mission builders to create a spontaneous game, etc.

Overall, NUTS! is a great skirmish rule system that lets you play fairly accurate WW2 skirmish battles, have a lot of fun and play your game to conclusion in a couple of hours.

Here's more info on NUTS

TMP link

TMP link

Another vote for Flying Lead.

Robert

The models will probably have to be grouped into squads or fireteams

That's TW&T. CR/NUTS are fun, but the thought of 30 models going though the reaction system I can only see as being wearing- However CR is free to download, so go and take a look

Saying that I can not praise TW and T highly enough. The caveat must come with this paragraph on page 64

Instead of applying a +1 "because the rules say so", umpires are forced to apply their own understanding of the WW2 battlefield and players begin to think of historically acceptable reasons for doing things in a certain way (like where best to deploy AT guns), not because "the rules say I get
a +1 for doing that", but because they know the tactical arguments of why one position offers an advantage over another. In this way the rules provide a framework where rule
lawyer and WW2 enthusiast can ‘compete' on a playing field which hands the military mind, and not the pedant, the advantage.

If you are happy to look at a situation and agree with your opponent the shot is 'x', or it seems reasonable to do 'y', and/or you have an umpire who will do the same, then you may well enjoy them.

If on the otherhand you are a rules lawyer, squeeze the maximum from the rules even if it is obvious it is nonsensical in situation 's', can't operate without definate modifiers type, then don't buy them.

I use the old Tactical Commander. Not too bad, and dspite how it looks, pretty quick to get the hang of.

… but the thought of 30 models going though the reaction system I can only see as being wearing- However CR is free to download, so go and take a look

.

Not at all. Once you know the system and realize that reaction tests are taken by groups and not individual figures it's a breeze. Start small with 10 or so figure then once you understand the mechanics it's easy to play 30-50 figures.

Like anything, the more you do it the easier it gets.

My game club uses Disposable Heroes rules for WW2 skirmish games. We use some vehicles in a 28mm game and many more in 20mm games. I like the game mechanism, and we enjoy Vietnam games (the Long Road South) and WW1 (Futile Gallantry). The game also has expansions for weird and movie style-1920s and 30s games. In addition, we sometimes play "NUTS", it's also a well-designed and fun game.

NUTS! is a love it or dislike it proposition in my opinion. Definitely try the free Chain Reaction rules to see if you like the system. I tried to like it based on the rave reviews it has from its dedicated fan base but it is not my cup of tea. If you like a little lite "RPG" element to your skirmish gaming, it might be just what you are looking for. Also, I don't consider myself a rivet counter by any means, but I wanted a little more "crunch", as saying goes, than NUTS! provided. To each his own, the beauty of the Chain Reaction system is that you can try it for free so definitely check that out.

Up till now I have only used Disposable Heroes. The games have always been great but I haven't gamed WW2 for some time. Just starting to get back into it. I have also downloaded Troops, Weapons & Tactics from the Too Fat Lardies. Haven't tried them yet but after reading the rules and several AARs they look fun. I think you would do well with either (or both).

Ed
My apologies – I've only played CR2 and 3. I'll be sticking with TW&T though.

I'll be sticking with TW&T though.

Can't go wrong there, heard great stuff about it. That's what it all boils down to, find something you like to play and play.

I've enjoyed the CR games I've played, but you know what it's like – I don't play all the PERIODS I have, let alone the rules, and you always ending up going "do we do that now, or is that game 'x'?"

BEL. Hands down, for me, the best WWII skirmish-level game ever produced. "Behind Enemy Lines", the version produced by "The Companions" is the one you want. Very OOP, but can be fairly easily found on ebay and other such sites.

Behind Enemy Lines – is that the RPG from the early '80s?

I've been meaning to play The Face of Battle for a long time now. The rules aren't exactly light but well-organized. Their FAQ does a good job at introducing you to the game.

link

@willthepiper … If, indeed, TKindred is referring to the RPG, it's still available as a PDF … link

One tank a side can be a problem.
Games tend to revolve round whether the tank lives or dies.

Depending on level of detail of what you want too. I have played the free Forces of Valor game rules (www.forcesofvalor.com) which is pretty easy and not that detailed up to Final Combat, which is basically very detailed game.

BattleGround WWII for platoon level actions, for bigger games Arc of Fire. I really like the BattleGround for tiny actions. The system works great, but fall apart being too slow once you get beyond about a squad per player, and no more than reinforced platoons per side.

Arc of Fire can handle bigger battles, but you give up a lot of flavor for the ability to handle large battles.

So super detailed BGWWII, for fast action and larger battles AoF.

Panzer War. Because just like Battleground WII it is a squad level game like Squad Leader.