"It's Official: No Models for Polish "Black Brigade"" Topic

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I hate having to log in to that site to see posts – ridiculous if you asked me.

What is the Black Brigade?

True North makes them.

Outpost Wargame Services make them

Well crap. That really sucks. That was one of the units I was most looking forward to. My True North will have to do then, which is ok I guess…but the models aren't that great. At least I will be able to replace the vehicles with the better BF models.

Warwizard: The 10th Mechanized Cavalry Brigade. One of the elite units of the Polish army which wore distinctive black leather jackets and German style WWI helmets. They fought from the invasion in '39, escaped to Hungary then relocated to France to join the French Army, then fought the Krauts in '40 and then escaped at Dunkirk only to come back later in '44 to fight the Germans all the way to the bitter end. '39 in their distinctive uniforms, '40 with French equipment, and '44 in British kit IIRC.

Iron Ivan Keith, I am assuming you mean the True North vehicles aren't that great…(:o)….

I mean the True North vehicles and infantry. They are ok. Nothing to get excited over though. The infantry are kind of large and the helmets are squished. The vehicles don't have much detail, though they look the part painted up. All in all, they will fill their role. But I was looking forward to seeing what BFs 10th would have looked like…

"What is the Black Brigade?"

The 10th Polish Motorized Cavalry Brigade, which are on page 26 of Battlefront's own Blitzkrieg book.

Ahhh crap…I always call them the 10th Mechanized Cavalry instead of Motorized. Doh.

HEADSWAPS???? In 15mm???

That's insane.

I don't know how they plan to do a conversion. The Poles carried the BAR, and unless they have loose BARS to sell, it isn't really going to work to just swap heads.

Man, no Polish Black Brigade? Is BF bat crazy? Everyone LOVES those guys.

Well, my gaming group was planning to jump into FOW in a *big* way, but this news just kills it.

Ahhh crap…I always call them the 10th Mechanized Cavalry instead of Motorized.

THE SHAME!

Nobody says you need to buy the BF Polish figures.

The True North Poles are very nice. I saw a full primered Cavalry Regiment and 10th Motor Cav Battalion on Saturday.

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"Very nice" is a subjective thing. I own a ton of the True North 10th and they just don't do it for me. Of course no one NEEDS to buy the BF figs. I just like some of them and was hoping to see how their version of the 10th looked.

Well I think their infantry and guns look pretty good. However, their vehicles all lack rivets. But you can't beat their prices vs. Battlefront.

@ darthfozzywig, ROTFLMAO!

Would one see rivets on a 15mm vehicle? Or is it just the impression of them that is important?

Would one see rivets on a 15mm vehicle? Or is it just the impression of them that is important?

Wargamers want rivets whether you should be able to see them or not. Even in 1/300th.

And badges on infantry.

TN and QRF/OWS Poles are fine, they paint up well, but I'd imagine Peter Pig's head sprues make converting them simple enough.

There does seem to be something wrong at BF currently. There's an article on the web-site detailing myths of the Polish campaign.

It's wonderful – and details the sterling efforts made by the Polish Air Force….

….which is entirely absent from the Blitzkreig book…

And then there's the fact that Polish Cavalry apparently have no skill at recon…

Bad move.

"Flames of War. Its not your (grand)father's WWII."

Here are few links with help for the question of "What is the Black Brigade?"

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janpirog.com/summary.php

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tmg110.tripod.com/poland2.htm

What a shame! That was THE polish unit I wanted for early war. I will buy russians in great coats and the german WWI heads from PP.

What an interesting topic :) So how many miniature sculpts are we talking about ?

Really not so much of a "loss" given the direction BF infantry sculpts have been going.

OFM – headswaps are easy enough with the Peter Pig separate heads. Neatly cut off offending head (I use Xuron track cutters, but anything will do), use pin vice to drill hole of appropriate diameter, cut neck spigot to required length, apply glue, stick in hole. Takes a couple of minutes per figure at most. Really no harder than putting an aerial on a tank model.

@Pole Bitwy: Going from link , maybe 4 exposed tank crewmen, but all their supporting troops would need to be done as well. AT Gun crew (4?), Artillery Crew (4), AA gun crew (4), mortar crew (3-4), HMG crew (3-4), and 4-8 cavalry troopers mounted and dismounted.

I make that 8 codes of troops, unless you combine the gun crews and mounted and dismounted cav.

Thanks Lion in the Stars!
8 x 4 = 32 plus 4 horses that's 36 miniatures minimum.
I would start with the tank crewmen and finish with the cavalry since I need to get a specific sculptor to create the animal greens that will also be used in other projects [15mm SF/VSF/Fantasy]. I just need to get a single copy of each Polish tank.

Any specific pose requirements ?

"A bad move" Podette?
We are talking about an obscure unit within an obscure army here. BF would have to invest a lot to make these models and how many would they sell? If everyone expressing an interest on this page was multiplied tenfold then you still wouldn't be able to cover the costs of sculpting and tooling involved.
Why not buy from True North and support a company who has the guts to make something risky and obscure. To do anything else would be an insult and make similar ventures less likely in the future. Support the littleguy or you will lose him and your hobby will just become bland and corporate entity.

Like I said in the rough description, HMG and mortar crews (although those are usually 3+tube in FoW), AT gun crews, AA gun crews, and artillery gun crews. poses comparable to those used by Battlefront are OK, so pointing officer, gunner, and loader or 2 for mortars, AT, and Artillery. Gunner, assistant gunner, and guy w/ binoculars or pointing for HMG teams, maybe a 4th guy with ammo boxes.

Oops, forgot spotters (guy w/binoculars and another w/radio, kneeling or sitting on ground) and staff teams!

I think a lot of people would like 8 leg-infantry poses, as well, but one could be an officer brandishing sword or pistol, and another could be an NCO waving encouragement. That leaves 6 basic riflemen poses.

Didn't the Poles use BARs? If they did, then you'd need at least one guy with a BAR, ideally 2, leaving 4-5 rifleman poses. Say, standing-shooting, a couple advancing poses, and at least one charging w/ bayonet. They're Cav troopers, they are supposed to be aggressive!

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@Wargamer6: Battlefront has certainly made unique pieces of equipment with limited appeal before, like 21st Panzer Div's French halftracks, and it sounds like Pole Bitwy wants to make some famous Polish troops!

To be honest, I would like to support a company that can afford a potential flop of a line, rather than watch a small company fold because of one bad business decision.

how many would they sell?

Well, given that we know that eveery manufacturer of a 15mm Tiger II each sells more models of them than were ever produced in total during WWII…

Wargamers buy what is unusual, or sexy, or different. That's why we have things like the Poles, and the Char 2, and Belgians…

Geoff
quickreactionforce.co.uk

"Didn't the Poles use BARs?"

Uh-huh. But how many? Two in a mix of eight is awfully heavy for what they had.

Allen

I think he meant 2 poses, not 2 per section

Cheer up guys, there may be no 10th Black Brigade figures from BF on offer but at least there's a book about the unit thats just been published.

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Actually, because the 10th is MOTORIZED cavalry, you don't need guys mounted on horses. They are in trucks, cars, motorcycles, etc.

As far as I know, the tankers would be the same as any tankers, since they would wear the como helmet instead of the coal scuttle helmet.

The thing that makes them interesting, in addition to the German helmet is the black leather coat. The myth is that all the troops adopted the leather tankers' jacket, a knee-length black leather coat. So, as others have said, the following would make for a complete line:

Riflemen
BAR (ratio was pretty low)
HMG (Browning .30 cal water cooled)
81mm Mortar
AT gun crews
Artillery gun crews
Misc command figures

OldGlory/TrueNorth have 10th motorized cavalry minis in their Polish 15mm range. Along with National guard and mountain troops (beside the regular Polish army mini's).

I have not seen that particular part of their range IRL, but I have some of their regular Polish infantry and I think they look quite good with paint on. A tad sharper than other Polish 15mm infantry I have had the chance to see IRL.

@Great Hall Games: So the 10th Mounted Rifle Regiment or the 24th Uhlan Regiment didn't have horses? Motorcycles, then?

@Allen/Geoff: Yes, I meant 2 poses of BAR gunners, but I think my 1ID Normandy troops only have 1 pose for the BAR.

Now, Pole Bitwy doesn't have to make the tanks and guns if he doesn't want to. Those can be sourced elsewhere. I was concentrating on Infantry and gun crews, since those would be unique to the 10th Brigade.

@Great Hall Games: So the 10th Mounted Rifle Regiment or the 24th Uhlan Regiment didn't have horses? Motorcycles, then?

Nope. Fully motorized. The recon elements used motorcycles. The regular troopers were transported in trucks and the HMGs were transported in light trucks. (And I believe these were deployed in a portee sort of arrangement where the HMGs could shoot out the rear, like the taczankas, while mounted and then also dismount.) Guns were towed by trucks and tractors. Command elements in staff cars.

Same for the elements of the Warsaw Motorized Brigade, except they wore the usual cavalry uniform. I have seen reference that the Warsaw Brigade wore the M1936 helmet rather than the Adrian, however.

Oh, would also need Anti-Tank Rifle crew.

Well, that simplifies matters a bit, then. Too bad, those guys on horses would look pretty cool!

So, 8ish different riflemen poses; HMG, Mortar, ATR, ATG, AA, and Artillery crew; observers; some leader figures; plus some exposed tank crewmen. I think you could still get away with 36 different sculpts, but 40 would be a bit better.

Source the vehicles and guns elsewhere.

Kinda suprised nobody has mentioned these guys?
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Figures armor artillery do the black brigade.polish ,infantry , cavalry and artillery in 20mm . Very nice figures.

Though the availability of FAA is not clear at the moment

TMP link

Thanks Truscott I forgot about outpost.

I am not certain how good their figures are, its hard to tell with such small figures, and from what I can see they only do basic infantry

BUT

they do sell seperate polish AT figures, which is what I am missing to turn my Polish army box into mechanised troops!

A good source of material about the motorized cavalry (the black brigade and warsaw motorized brigade ) was a series of articles in the "journal" . A periodical put out by the Society of Twentieth Century wargamers . The author worked at the Sikorski I institute in London .

Looking back at the older post I must agree that the TN are OK. There are some things you can do to jazz them up. For example the TN Fiat trucks are boring and can be modified with figs to make them really stand out (as far as a truck in FoW can). I added three bleacher row seats from side to side in the truck bed by using simple bass wood strips. Command Decision makes seated Germans (Jeep Crew?) which paint up well into 10th Mech. A good TN standing fig can man and at the same time brace the AAMG supplied with the TN truck. All said and done the loaded truck adds life.

A ggod Polish camo is next. The FoW people have the examples in the BK book using airbrushing and also the godaweful painted ones. Simply drybrushing the three-tone Polish camo on has the same effect as drybrushing at this scale. Drybrushing the camo stripes will have soft edges you want. I was concerned about the technique but after a test I am now sold and will continue it for the rest of the vehicles.

Real Vickers Polish tanks from QRF also make the 10th Mech force stand out. FoW likely will not do these and the TN ones are really, really bad. QRF ones look fine and the camo noted above adds to the positive result.

I also have done some research and have found (blasphemy to many) that the only the 10th mech officers, NCO, tankers and motorcycle riders wore the black leather jackets. The infantry and gun crews wore as one would expect – regular jackets and greatcoats. Worry not, the TN figs look the part in Polish khaki graetcoat or leather, only a true expert measuring the length to the knee would know the difference. Zaloga makes reference to only some wearing leather and Jerzy in his lastest book on the unit specifically states the wear on leather in text and photo captions.

TMP link

I am going to use Minifig WW1 Germans and Austrians and QRF WW1 Germans for the Black Brigade. The long WW1 jacket is fine for the leather coat in this scale. Having three ranges gives plenty of choice.

Roy