"Just set a new 18th century Imagi-Nation (maybe)" Topic

As a result of having published some booklets dedicated to the hispanic armies involved in the War of Spanish Succession ( desperta-ferro-ed.blogspot.com ), I came into contact with some members of the Emperor vs. Elector 'Imagi-Nations' community. Under their influence, I got amused by the idea of creating an 'Imagi-Nation' of my own, set in the eighteenth century too, so I've opened a blog to describe its birth and development, under the name of Defiant Principality ( what-if-catalonia.blogspot.com ).

This new 'Imagi-Nation' is not being a purely fictional one, but will be inspired in a what-if aftermath of WSS resulting in the creation of an independent Principality of Catalonia, under Charles VI nominal sovereignty -as argued by Eugene of Savoy during Rastatt conference, so that it has much of an alternate account of History based on real facts.

Such a project holds a few differences with the Emperor vs Elector community, being the historic period the most important one. It can be had for sure that my new 'Imagi-Nation' will be set in the 18th century, but I am still uncertain about the exact moment in time where to game it. I suspect that in 'real life' the survival of such an Imagi-nation would be under a continous threat all through the first 3 decades of the century, so that this period (roughly running since WSS to the Quadruple Alliance war) would become a really exciting source for campaigns, scenarios and all sort of adventures, perhaps more than a later period.

On the other side, it might be desirable to fully share period with the 'Imagi-Nations' community above, as an alternate source for diplomacy as well as ideas exchange among gamers. So that there is a lot to be decided yet, before my 'What-if-Nation' is definitely outlined.

However, I already have assigned to myself a lot of work to do while waiting for a decision to be adopted, for I've had the idea of watching in 'real time' the birth of my 'What-if Nation', making it become the subject of a preliminary campaign; depending on the campaign results, there will be a new Nation on map -or not.

I'm already working on the campaign stuff, as you can see on my blog. By now, I've started by drawing a campaign map and adapting an appropriate campaign ruleset; other matters to be studied are unexpected events (either minor or historic, major events -such as unexpected Imperial or French victories in Flanders or Germany, premature death of Queen Anne, and so).

There is a long and hard road to run, as you can see; so that any kind of idea, help or appropriate stuff would be warmly welcome, you can be sure.

That is not too unusual at the Emperor vs Elector group. I believe there are a few posters there who have their fictional states tucked in between real historical states, so it should be possible for a non-Spanish independent Catalonian state to exist there as well.

To help defend the new nation, there could be the Austrians and HRE aiding it until the end of the War of the Austrian Succession; and perhaps with the diplomatic revolution, their allies changing to Britain and Portugal for the SYW and later?

And if you did end up having the Spanish win in one of the wartime periods playing out the war with friends on the tabletop, such as during the era of the War of the Polish Succession, you could always have Catalonia returned to being a semi-independent or independent state in the peace treaty such as Spain gets Naples but the Austrians insist upon keeping their Catalonian state with the French bullying the Spanish into accepting this clause of the peace treaty.

With your imagi-nations, how detailed do you draw up the background. My main interest is historical, and tend to deal with hard data Army Lists. The only Fantasy army lists were for Supreme Warlord: Bloodlust and Distant World battles (SciFi) plus a few mars VSF lists.

The dealing with the Mars VSF did peak my interest into the possible development of 1700s Imgai-nations or 1800s ones.

Do you do mainly military ToEs and higher organizations or do you do cultural and economic as well?

Andygamer, I'd like the projected preliminary 1713-1714 mini-campaign might become the real key for prefiguring my Imagi-nation, so that I wouldn't know what would it be like until a military aftermath was achieved. Although a what-if-Catalan alternative would be most pleasant to me, I'm in fact dealing with several other alternatives, some extra-peninsular and even one set up in the New World.

All I'd love by now is setting up an enjoyable-by-itself campaign, with an added value in the form of an Imagi-Nation born from that conflict. Which one? …Who knows! .

Rudy, I'm doing my best to conform to a historical background, starting from towns population and militiae sizes estimation, which have been taken from several different achademic works.

Catalan TO&E can be quite precisely drawn thanks to latest achademic works and divulgation books published here in Catalonia, but I'm having a little more trouble in finding out the initial Spanish TO&E. By now, I'm working on a couple of Nafziger sheets along with a few data collected during elaboration of my own booklets.

With all this, I'm telling you that I'd like to be quite 'serious' at setting the preliminary campaign. Once it is over and my What-if-Nation is formally born, I'm going to enjoy a little more freedom to imagine things at will -for I guess that such freedom is a strong stimulus for those who embark themselves in the 'Imagi-Nations' world. However, I had in mind to adjust myself to likely facts -for example, it wouldn't be sustainable for a 750,000 inhabitants Nation to permanently maintain a 20,000 men army. Another challenge would be consolidating a market and industry -and this also becomes a likely inspiration source for adventures, I believe.

Sincerely, I don't know yet what precision degree I'm going to achieve -or will! Only letting it run shall I know…

@Soldadets: you seem to walk the road to Imagi-Nation (paved with good intentions, it's true, but don't take it as a bad omen!) reluctantly, shyly, as if you were a Napoleonic wargamer! Are you surronded with frowning die-hard 'historicals'?

@RudyNelson: on 'Emperor vs Elector' emperor-elector.blogspot.com peruse the links to the 'associated' individual blogs: you'll see how astoundingly diverse are the approaches by the 80-some contributors.
A recent relevant TMP thread: TMP link
Now, if interested both with VSF and some 'alternate' 18th C., what about taking the plunge into Lacepunk?
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
link
link (with a larger 'balloon' / size of the 'hull' -and tricornes instead of shakos, of course!)

Abdul, no my Lord! …True that miniature wargaming here isn't that spread as in other countries, so that you'd find little variety in gaming -and very few hobbyists, if any, have ever heard about Imagi-Nations…

…And therefore maybe you're right in that I'm apparently worried about trying not to seem 'frivolous' -but it's rather an attitude feature of mine: I use to prefer a likeliness appearance, even for fantastic settings. I don't mean to be any kind of hard core historical gamer, it's just that I find pleasure in 'likelihood'.

No worries, Soladets.

We are a very diverse group. We span the whole of the 18th Century (and beyond), some of us delve deeply into cultural aspects, others are strictly military in their interests.

"What-if" Imagi-Nations can be a great way to go. Exploring an area of history that is of personal interest and letting history take a new course.

I have found your booklets to be a great addition to the hobby, and welcome you to the world of Imagi-Nations.

Thanks, Dave. Once my project is actually running, most sure that I'll be asking for my What-if-land to be included in the 'Emperor vs Elector' community.

Soldadets,
I perfectly understand that you try not to seem 'frivolous' (specially when living, as you are, in a country where wargaming is lesser known than, say, GB and the USA), that you find a reassuring pleasure in 'likelihood'. And thus that you prefer to develop a given 'historically based' "What-if?" country (Catalonia *did* fight for its independence) than a 'purely fictional' imaginary country.

Then understand that the borderline between "What-if?"-Nations and Imagi-Nations is more than fuzzy: most Imagi-Nations are the 'logical' result of some 'historical' (but undocumented…) "What-if?" sometimes in the past. A Prince or Archduke of the Holy Empire, a century ago, had one more heir than 'in our time line' to divide his lands between: by the mid-18th C. the 300+ states and statelets of the Holy Empire have one more member than in our avatar of the Multiverse -call it the Grafschaft of Hesse-Milchkaennchen or whatever. During the TYW a handful of Dutch towns close to the German border (or the opposite) formed a defensive alliance: C. Grant's Vereinigte Freie Staedte…
And, while new-born Free Catalonia will emerge as a perfectly 'historical' "What-if?" country, when campaign years pass you will further and further away from historical reference, you will be unleashed 'on your own', will be compelled to *invent* more and more… and Free Catalonia will grow to adulthood as an Imagi-Nation.

You oppose historical "What-if?" to fictional / fantasy, but, be reassured, most Imagi-Nations are devoided of any 'fantasy' element in their setting / background. While, on the other hand -as Victorian Sci-Fi was alluded to above, I take it as an example- most VSF countries are 'real' ones: Great Britain, Germany, Russia, Japan… even (quite surprisingly?) Belgium often appears in an active role. Indeed most VSF gamers seem more inclined to play Belgians on Mars than Ruritanians on Earth!

Every battle game, every wargame campaign is historical fiction. The difference between a "What-if?"-Nations and Imagi-Nations is less in their degree of 'fictitiousness' / the level of weirdness' of their creator "What-if?" than in the length of time elapsed since the divergence with 'our' history.
You seem to call such fiction 'fantasy' -and it's true that, contrary to what is often assumed, 'fantasy' does NOT implies compulsorily a supernatural / magical element: only, according to dictionaries, 'imagination unrestricted by reality'. Indeed, any wargame campaign -however 'serious' and 'likely' at the start- has the potential to turn from fiction to 'fantasy' in this meaning of the word.
If during a wargame campaign 're-enacting' Bonaparte's expedition to Egypt, Nelson killed and the French Navy victorious at Abukir, the French situation in Egypt is more than satisfactory, you are still 'writing' historical fiction ('utterly bad' in the opinion of British readers?). Then if after several campaign-months or years Bonaparte, having followed the steps of Alexander the Great and conquered Turkey, Persia and Afghanistan, is now battling with Wellington for overall control of India -and even if the balloons he took with him to Egypt did not in the meantime evolve to dirigibles- the setting departs enough from 'reality' to be deemed historical fantasy.
And then, of course, you'll have to invent the early 19th C. uniforms of the French forces in India…
(Actually Napoleon in Ste Helene confessed to have dreamed 'only' of returning to France by the land road -Asia Minor, the Bosphorus, the Balkans- leading hordes of janissaries to crush Austria on his way home.)

I'm starting to fully understand you, Abdul, and I'm glad to ensure you to completely agree with your reasonings. I wouldn't like to be regarded as reluctant to join 'Emperor vs Elector' community for any eventual 'what-if-historical'/'fictional' disagreement -for there's no such disagreement.

It's only that I'm still doubtful about what exact period to game; I was at first mainly interested in gaming the first third of the century, for I believed it the most challenging/exciting one for the future of my 'What-if-Nation', although… well, there was a point of pragmatism in this (it's hard to paint a couple of armies for gaming just a campaign and afterwards jumping to 50 years afterwards), but… hummm… wearing old-fashioned uniforms is not so uncommon through History, so that…

-As you can see, I'm still far from having fully madurated my project . But I don't mind, in fact all this process is most amusing

buuugggger.. im going to have to do one now!
Hesse-Gieẞen, suppliers of Soupcubes to the HRE!