"EMPIRE and Stars*n*Bars available once again!" Topic

Don't lock the thread, I want to post so I can say I was involved in the Great Empire Melee of '10.

Jolly good fun, what.

NOPE, not a clue as to what happened to BERSHIG.

CLAY, i think he was speaking from out of his anus about that ARMADILLO SOLDIER SHOP event. i do not remember it at all.

DAWGIE

Ah the fraças has slowed. we must be getting old, or tired. C'mon lads, get back in there!

jim

This has given me the best laugh for ages. Well done Mr Pitts!

Alex

"Ah the fraças has slowed. we must be getting old, or tired. C'mon lads, get back in there"!

Reminds me of the brawls in the courtyard at my high school when someone would yell out:
"Kick his head in"
and a teacher would reply"
"Yeah, kick it in here"! (yep, 'twas a tough school)
:o)

Piling on is usually not a very honorable thing I agree, unless of course you need a very large pile to keep something buried and out of sight where it belongs! If you have had enough , then quit, I myself have had enough too! But please don't try to get the subject removed, the folks will quit this commentary when they are finished!

George "Kingfish" Stevens

I keep meaning to say something else, but then I get a glimpse of Procopious's avatar (again), and I lose focus and train of thought….

Darn him!

I think I may have worked for the company that produced Empire here in OZ. It was a very long time ago so it may have been another set of rules.
Any way I wanted some popcorn so jumped in with the only thing I could say about Empire.

Seems to me the editor is enabling, if not instigating personal attack on an individual and should send himself to the Dawghaus, IMHO.

Yeah, its as if the Editor is somehow FORCING us to read and post to this thread!

Ever wonder WHY its hard to get younger gamers in the hobby?

No. They do not have the money and are distracted by many other forms of entertainment.

Seems to me the editor is enabling, if not instigating personal attack on an individual and should send himself to the Dawghaus, IMHO.

Your opinion is not, I regret to inform you, held in high regards around these parts.

No it's because a lot of this is juvenile and some people think they are somehow elitist and need to belittle others.Having said that the main culprit in all this blather would seem to be Mr Pitts and he should be thoroughly ashamed of himself. Talk about how NOT to win friends and influence people, his is a prime example. However, having read some blogs recently by others who are in this hobby, I can only conclude that an element of snobbery and elitism pervades the mentality of some. Its only a game and is meant to be fun at the end of the day. There are the anally retentive out there who can't see the woods for the trees and seem to have lost the plot somewhat(for example regarding rule-sets they don't seem think are 'technical enough' like FOW or WI mag which is too hysterically written for some poor old farts to cope with). Hardly the sort of inspiration that youngsters require to drag them away from their XBox/PS3 or whatever and move into historical wargaming. We have enough trouble with rules about vetting adults before clubs can admit children/teenagers now without discouraging them before they even get started by bickering and arguing (as funny as some posts have been I admit) this is hardly setting a good example. If you don't encourage young blood into the hobby it will DIE, or at least wither,like some minority sports (for example showjumping, touring cars) do after they lose their prime TV slots due to falling interest.This isn't a great PR exercise or advertisment for anybody now, so call it a day.

When did we stop taking responsibility for our own actions?

Lock the thread? How about just not looking at it?

If you don't encourage young blood into the hobby it will DIE, or at least wither,like some minority sports (for example showjumping, touring cars) do after they lose their prime TV slots due to falling interest.This isn't a great PR exercise or advertisment for anybody now, so call it a day.

With the greatest of respect I do not wargame in order to sell it to sprogs in order to maintain its lifeblood after I snuff it. Frankly I couldn't care less on that subject. I game for me, selfish as that may appear. I'm actually a pretty laid back gamer as well, however I'm not inclined to dictate to others how to play. I simply choose not to play with people who don't like to have a beer, a laugh and a good time.

As for snobbery and elitism, I'm afraid that isn't wargaming, that's human nature.

I think the "serious" vitriol was over in the first 100 posts (100!!) after that people have been finding ways to be amusing, clever, silly etc. It has been fun, but I think I'll also call it a day.

Great entertainment.

I heard about this yesterday when I had lunch with some other TMP folks. Wow – This is like observing an ongoing train wreck.

Volleyfire

I have read your post a couple of times and I find very little to totally disagree with. However, I have been in this Hobby since the early 70s and I feel that those sentiments were just as true in 75, 85 ,95, 2005 and now. Miniature wargaming has crawled ahead despite itself. Its total lack of cohesion and discipline would have killed off a lot of hobbys, but here we still are and likely to continue if the past is any guide. I guess miniature wargaming is a kind super virus, seldom fatal, but incurable to the infected!

Woozle wuzzle? Me look for bicycle repair shop, nice man he send me here, this not bicycle repair shop!! me so sad.

Didn't the Empire Rules make use of the Telescopic Time Concept? That way one hour of real time could be condensed into 65 hours of mind numbing game time (?) … just like this thread.

That should add a few more bits of tinder to the fire.

"When did we stop taking responsibility for our own actions?"

My guess would be when Cain Whacked Abel pretty good.

"AM I my brother's keeper?"

"Ever wonder WHY it's hard to get younger gamers in the hobby?"

There are LOTS of reasons as to why. When I was active in the HMGS-PSW my friends and I ran games, worked on the newsletter and put in color photos and introductory articles and all that. Was there a result? I am not sure, but it did seem like the membership climbed. We gave it up as there were too many headaches for the few results we got. I ran many games at my school and did any of my students ever get into the hobby? Maybe possibly one student in all that time and was it a waste for me? No, not really as I enjoyed doing it. I think that this is a key point.

I hear about the graying of the hobby and well, if it grays, it grays. I am still willing to teach newcomers and all that, but in SoCal there are so many other distractions.
People complain about this rule set being too gamey or that rule set takes too long to play or the War for Snogglepuss' Left Nostril has been ignored as a gaming period. Some of the older folk are not meant to reach out or to teach newcomers, that's it. Yes, it is that simple.

"If you don't encourage young blood into the hobby it will DIE…"

I disagree with that statement. There is more flourishing of rules, miniatures, paints, terrain than ever before. Ashes of Peace got flamed so much for making a glossy book with pretty pictures. It raised rules publishing to a higher standard and it got more folk interested. The more things change… the more they stay the same. The hobby won't die, but it will alter its shape from time to time. I am not a prophet, nor do I play one on TV or on YouTube for that matter.

Regarding the behavior of some of the folks here on TMP? My guess would be that for every one individual who does not wish to conform to the rules of civil behavior that there are many more individuals on TMP (who may or may not post at all).

As for this thread being the everlasting thread… look at the GW Hatred thread and go from there.

Good one Capt John Miller.

Capt John Miller speaks the truth. I have been wargaming for over twenty years and have heard that the hobby is dying ever since I started. One look at the stuff that is now available shows it's not really slowing up any…

Say what you want, there is a difference between public ridicule and what could amount to public libel. Both have little place in modern society and rank up there with other human failings like greed, (IMHO).

In any case I agree with Volleyfire, and no, I am not surprised at all that we can't attract younger gamers into historical gaming, (IMHO).

The hobby contains too many elitists, (IMHO). Those under 25 have more disposable income than anyone. Those under 25 that game spend it on Warhammer from what I have witnessed, and there is nothing wrong with that, (IMHO). After reading some of these posts it is evident why. At least Warhammer players don't appear to me to cannibalize and eat their young, (IMHO).

I left IPMS for these same reasons. Too many elitists and not enough stewardship, (IMHO).

There is a highly respected member of the gaming community in the Chicago area whose initials are T A. He deserves the gaming medal of honour for all he has done to promote historical gaming to new generations. For every T A, I have met at least 20 elitists in historical gaming who charge down the path of self-righteousness and indignation at anything but their own opinion, (IMHO). They scare me. I am certain they scare prospective new historical gamers, (IMHO).

Mr. Pitts clearly had a bad day, (IMHO). Tell me the name of anyone who hasn't.

Those under 25 have more disposable income than anyone.

Figures? Or is it 'a feeling'? I have far more disposable income now than I did when I was 25, and I suspect that's true of many greying baby boomers.

Here are some figures, for your perusal. They're from the UK, but that's where I live, and wargaming happens here as well as in the States.

PDF link Page 3.

Those under 25 have far more distractions to spend their money on. I suspect that little lead soldiers comes a long way down the list for most young men. 50 years ago, stamp collecting (I still have my father's albums) and trainspotting were popular hobbies, now they…aren't. The world moves on, deal with it.

Didn't the Empire Rules make use of the Telescopic Time Concept? That way one hour of real time could be condensed into 65 hours of mind numbing game time (?) … just like this thread.

That should add a few more bits of tinder to the fire.

* * * * *

Regarding the "telescopic time concept" (deliberately misspelled to avoid copyright and trademark) in Empire, check this out from Fire and Stone, by Christopher Duffy, Peters Fraser and Dunlop, London, 1975, and Castle Books, Edison, NJ, 2006:

"In the present wargame one move normally represents the passage of twenty-four hours. Troops and guns may therefore be moved (within reason) to any part of the fortress…any part of the open country…

When the besiegers declare that they are about to storm a work, or the defenders launch a sortie, the subsequent moves (to a mutually agreed number)are considered to be TELESCOPED into a quarter hour each. In such a tactical move…" [emphasis added]

That is from Appendix 3, A Fortress Wargame, pages 193-194.
That is the 17th//18th Century siege game played at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, where Professor Duffy was Senior Lecturer in Military History.

I only have Empire from the 3rd Edition and Stars'n'Bars from the same time period, but can anyone tell me definitively whether that Con cept, heavily trademarked and copyrighted in both of them, was in Duffy and the RMA first?? Was it in any edition of Empire before 1975?

There is no logic, no reason and no value to "locking this thread"

The Ed already said it cant be locked! Huzzah for free speech.

When we get sick of it, it will die. Personally I think keep ir going for a year!
Till then let us exhalt in others social ineptness, because Wargaming indeed is a genre otherwise free of social gaffes!

Seriously though. Starting a thread hoping to sell something (overpriced)and working out that the best way to do this is by slagging off your customers?

Anyway. Heres looking at page 8

That was definatly my last post in this thread.
All replies from now on are a result of my spambot

Including this entry.

If you don't encourage young blood into the hobby it will DIE

Ah, yes, the same old "doom and gloom" . . . which is not borne out by any discernible facts. This hobby has a life of its own, and will continue on in spite of the best efforts of arrogant, intolerant anoraks to discourage new devotees.

From the look of the typical attendees at the recent Hamburg Tactica . . .

TMP link

. . . there would appear to be plenty of young blood.

Jeff (long time TMPer who just dropped his membership in The War Event)

Perhaps saying DIE was a bit extreme, but at least it got some dialogue going and debate. I still don't see that many of the younger generation at the shows I attend though.Mostly the middle aged.
Yes there are loads of firms out there peddling umpteen ranges of goodies which we could only dream about 20 -30 years ago and now drool over, but where are the numbers of younger gamers coming into the historical side of the hobby to buy them?
We older gamers probably have more disposable income true, you only have to look at the car park at some shows to see there are some very wealthy people in this hobby, but is the next generation also walking in through the door out of curiosity too? Not many. Not unless they have a relative towing them along in many cases.
Sorry to wander off the main thread somewhat but this bears some relevance I feel through the attitude of some people in the hobby to others who don't share their particular point of view, which brings me back to the original gentleman (?) of whom this thread relates to.

Warhammer and all its offshoots has just as much elitism, cronyism and many other isms as historical.
I started my gaming life as a warhammer player and I tell you form first hand experience there is the same level of boors in warhammer if not more. The issues there are the elitist conformists who wont allow non GW figures onto their gaming table, the tournament players vs the casual players, the win at all costs player and simply snobbery between Warhammer fantasy players and Warhammer 40k players. So dont think that Warhammer is some utopian ideal of young and firendly players-its not! They cannibalise their young- i have seen the crusty old 40k player with the tooled up army take apart a new player with great glee and said new player leave the hobby becasue of the bitter taste………No gaming period or system is immune from overcompensating s!

As for this thread being the everlasting thread… look at the GW Hatred thread and go from there.

Wow…John, I wrote that post five years ago…it's creepy that anyone would still remember it…

Ah, let me contribute to the "greying" tangent of this thread!

Mostly the middle aged

I like this, because I think it helps to point out that the hobby isn't "greying".

If convention attendees are mostly middle aged, that seems to me an indicator that we're maintaining the hobby population, if it isn't expanding.

What I mean is, if the hobby were "greying", then convention attendees would be getting older and around about now people over 60 should be the dominant attendees at conventions.

At HMGS-E conventions that's clearly not the situation.

I suspect our hobby works a bit like this for those with an interest in miniature wargaming:

1. Kids and young adults (10-25)- Fantasy and Sci-Fi focus

2. Young adults (20-35) – Off making a life

3. Mature adults (25-60) – Get back into the hobby, mostly historical with some playing Sci-Fi/Fantasy

4. Seniors (60+) – Mostly historicals with some Sci-Fi Fantasy on the side

The point being is that the kids don't have to play formal historical miniature wargames and create a market demand. They'll grow into it and join us when it's time.

Regarding the age ranges they overlap deliberately for obvious reasons. There are exceptions of course as I'm sure there are some who have played Sci-Fi or Historicals all their lives, etc.

The good thing is, I see a lot of kids at HMGS-E shows because I suspect, like me, their parent who's "into" historicals bring them along. I hadn't noticed this before I brought my son but when I did and really LOOKED around, I was suprised to see so many kids. It's not overwhelming, thank goodness but it's not a seniors convention by any measure. While I don't believe that conventions are an indicator of the hobby as a whole, it doesn't look like there is a problem with attendees dying off and not being replaced. Convention attendance doesn't appear to be growing (significantly) but it looks to be stable and most attendees appear to be around my age or younger and I'm 42.

Now, with all the companies out there making and selling product that indicates that either there are more people with sense or there is a market out there and money to be had. Or both. But I could be off maybe 20 years ago there were the same number of companies but I didn't know it. Seems like a lot more now.

hi Mom

Wow – this is actually worse than the Napoleonic History board.
I did not think it was possible.
Impressive …. really.

Chuey

" As for this thread being the everlasting thread… look at the GW Hatred thread and go from there.

Wow…John, I wrote that post five years ago…it's creepy that anyone would still remember it…"

It's called memory Murphy and no, I do not visit that thread, but I did remember that it went on and on. I disagree with the creepy part.

So, Murphy was it you who was being pushed/cajoled into answering Duce's call for Flames of War? That's where my memory may or may not be working right.

anyone got a link to this thread you speak of ? I am curious. I must say, I blame GW for world famine now…

Sir William is right, (IMHO). Young people don't have to do anything. Just ask my students.

However, if we value our hobby, as I am sure we all do, I think we owe it to future generations and the legacy of ourselves as enthusiasts to perpetuate the hobby by inducing interest in the young of our species.

Elitist attitudes aren't really conducive to a welcoming environment. An aging Napoleonic player with an attitude is probably not the best recruiting role model we can have, (IMHO).

He he, not used to seeing Miller and Koyoteblue on the same page, been too long since I lurked here obviously.

Departing from my usual practice for a semi-serious post, I actually tell people the exact same thing about TMP as I do Frothers,"It's a fabulous resource with tons of good tips and information, just don't talk to them…"

Also funny how many people feel they need to post about how nobody else should post anymore. Buttered or plain salt Kyoteblue?

Page #8 ? Robert

YES! Keep it rolling!

rollin rollin' rollin'

Steve Miller-my real name
DFW Irregulars-my real club
8.5-my shoe size
-300-my G.A.S level about Gregg Pitts having a bad day

It's called memory Murphy and no, I do not visit that thread, but I did remember that it went on and on. I disagree with the creepy part.

Sorry John, I didn't mean as if you were creepy or it was creepy that you remembered it…I think it was more of "shocked/creepy" as to how many responses that thing got…yer a good man..always have been in my book…even that time you sent those letters to "love starved ladies in prison" and put my name on the return address…

So, Murphy was it you who was being pushed/cajoled into answering Duce's call for Flames of War? That's where my memory may or may not be working right.

Yes…Il Duce calls for me…I think though that I might end up doing WWII Italian Navy stuff…it's my belief that BF treated Italy like the drunk girl at the Frat Party in FOW rules…

But still, Il Duce calls…and my resistance is weak….

Michael T. Murphy
Yes my real name…
Size 12 my shoe size…
7 3/4 my hat size…
3.98 my current GPA

OK guys, you wanted this thread to come back… here it is….

TMP link

Sadly, I do not know how to link it. Yes, I did do the research.

Oh yeah, this thread is on page 8… oh look at me! the thread is on page 8 … oh whoop de dooo! Sun rises, sun sets, Flames of War gets flamed La Salle gets worked over, the War for Snozgul's left nostril is still underplayed as a period, GW folks eat all the members of the Animal Domain …

Think you guys can bring this thread to the levels of the linked thread? I'd love to see you guys try it!

(Excuse me, I have to run to the store to get some more eggs so I can make more of that egging on recipe.)

I do not visit that thread, but I did remember that it went on and on.

You big fibber…you went there on 11 Jan 2006!

hee hee!

Btw…while yer at the store, can you get me a 2 liter bottle of Pepsi and a bottle of Orange Fanta?…oh..and some chips…no BBQ, or really salty…Lays Originals will do…and some Tostitos and Picante Sauce…and some Peanut M&M's…thanks John..I owe you!

Wow Capt John Miller. Thanks for the link. I noticed the thread was mentioned but not linked. I never knew it existed. Did someone really ask for the thread to come back? Robert

THE END

Thanks Capt,

I have added my views to that one so it is now back in the limelight.

As to this thread I started out playing Napoleonics with Empire as did many others.

It has it good points (no buckets of dice) and it bad points (while Borodino was fought in a day using Empire you could expect to maybe finish the first turn in a day).

Also as I stated earlier I just might know this Mr Pitts from long ago (1988). He decided against me when I tried to order one of my British Divisions to go on the attack.

He was still upset about my 95th Rifles Bn breaking his Swiss Bde. My Battalion had suffer around 50% loses but held it ground and then broke his Bde. I order the attack right after that.