"GW hatred..." Topic

Okay call me an "instigator"...
But I often wonder.
WHY is there so much hatred directed towards GW?
Is it because their stuff is so expensive?
Is it because people say their games suck?
Is it because they change their marketing, and business policies with each phase of the moon?
Is it because they change stats on non selling models to make them "Selling" models, more than Italy changes governments?

Or..
Is it because they have been successful?

I ask this because I hear the same things all the time. "GW sucks"...
Sometimes I ask "Why do they suck?"
And many times I get the answer. "I dunno..they just do."

I've heard the people out there whine and moan about GW and their tactics, etc, and yet I can't help but wonder.
If GW was the big bad ogrish company that everyone says they are with a crappy product, poor rules, and prices that require people to take out mortgages on their homes to buy army sets, then don't you think this would have been reflected in their sales, and maybe even their very existence many years ago?

I wonder. Is it that we hate GW so, because of these tactics they use, or is it that we hate them because the tactics they use have been successful and have forced other companies to "adapt or die"?

Like it or not, GW HAS established a standard of professionalism in marketing gaming products and it HAS shook up the apathetic ho-hum mentality of the mini world.
Companies that want to have good sales, now realize that they NEED to market their products attractively. Deny it if you must, but we as consumers almost always buy everything based on VISUAL appeal first. "WOW..I like the looks of that..and it looks so coooooool!"

An example:
Let's use FoW.
If you go into many gaming stores, you will see scores of minis. You see the FoW stuff on the racks. Each one in it's little protected blister. You can see clearly what is in there, and there is the little information piece on the front that says (For example: German Panzer MK-IV: A good medium tank that saw service throughout the war, the MK-IV came in different versions and was a tough opponent, able to outgun many allied tanks.)
Okay...so now you know that this little baby in the blister isn't just a tank, it's a MK-IV and it's a bit of a killer.

Then you wander over to some "other" manufacturers products.
Their products are in zip lock bags, or plastic bags stapled shut with a card cover. You are lucky if the bags are clear enough to see all the parts inside. You are also lucky if the bag hasn't broken and parts haven't fallen out.
You see numerous big and small parts, sometimes up to a dozen. You can see that the gun tube is bent, and something that looks important looks like it's almost broken in half.
Then you look at the listing. You see the stock number and then the item: (Example: (and please forgive the historical inaccuracy you WWII Purists out there): PZKPFWMK-IVAL/50)

Now if you are well versed in WWII tanks, you know what it is (usually), but if you are new, and starting out, or getting it for someone, then you say "What the H*ll is this thing?)

Then many times you get a kit that has 12 parts, and it's a truck.
How many of you truly want to sit for a couple of hours and put a dozen parts on ONE metal truck?
Who wants to build a single truck that costs MORE than 2 resins from FoW, that are just waiting to be painted?

And some of these companies actually ask aloud WHY their products don't sell as "hot" as FoW...

FoW simply took the GW approach of marketing, which was
A: Make it visually appealing. The "ooh ahh COOL!" factor.
B: Make it easy to know what you are getting.
C: Make it look fun, whether it is or not.
D: Make them remember that the quality is still there, after the sticker shock fades.

So perhaps many people out here have a personal axe against GW. I play their games, and have found some of them enjoyable, and some not so enjoyable, but at the same time, I've noticed that despite the immense hatred that I see of them on this site, (And others), that they MUST be doing SOMETHING right or else they wouldn't still be in business after all these years, and continuing to open shops.

Comments are appreciated.

If we had their budget, we would market them the same way ;-)

I do not hate GW. I don't hate Foundry either, but that is another thread. I like the basic rules engine. I like the "buckets O'Dice" approach, because I think that the more dice you roll, the less one roll influences the game. I like the way you pay more points for the better weapons.

What I do not care for is the fluff. 40K is just too miserable a place to live in, as far as I am concerned. The universe seems like it was made up by 14-year olds. There are no Good Guys. None whatsoever. The humans' role model seems to be the Spanish Inquisition. Ptui.

Sometimes it seems like the figures are DESIGNED by 8 year olds. Note, I did not say SCULPTED. Just look at that Magnus Caliban, or whatever his name is. Please.

My view is that most of the GW hatred is a result of GW's success. (Notice that FOW generates hatred for much the same reason).

I still buy the occasional GW miniature, but I tend not to like the rules they produce (with some exceptions). I still buy lots of Citadel Color paint, because it is quality for price. For me it ends there. For others upset over some small thing that they percieve GW is doing to them, there is no cure. If you don't like a game or a pricing policy vote with your dollar, not endless whining on forums. The occasional crack or one liner is funny, but issuing fatwas against GW, followed by typewritten assaults is a waste of time.

A while back, I was discussing GW's success and what would have to be done by someone to emulate that success in historicals.

The people behind FOW have done that and are now also scorned.

Nothing succeeds in generating ill will like success.

I think you are dead right!

Thomas

My opinion is exactly the opposite of the OFM's. I like the universe, but I think the rules are quite poor.

I get mad at GW because they have left so many great games high and dry, and because their pricing guarantees that only 40K, Fantasy, and LOTR will have any popularity. You just cannot price Epic the way they are and expect it to sell.

If I didn't like anything about GW, I wouldn't care. Its because I DO like a lot about GW that I get mad.

In true TMP fashion "Ok, I'll bite, troll" ;)

I think alot of it has to do with feeling of abandonment and alientation.

Citadel and GW cranks out a really good quality product (sure, it's not up everyone alley - but there is a reason it's so successful and popular). In their early years they had lots of good games and there was much rejoicing. Many people were happy.

Over the years various products get dropped for one reason or another - and this alienates certain groups of players. Then rules change, and all of the sudden a force that one player might have fielded became obsolete or illegal in tournament play. This alienated more people.

For a while (and it's still somewhat true - but lots of the old school epic players in my group complain about this) there was an escillation of forces. Ie.. you have Army X. All of the sudden a new super-powerful unit comes out for army Y and now army X is a grease stain on the grass mat. A few months later, Army X gets a mega-powerful weapon etc...
Lots of people felt to remain competative, they had to buy these new units - and this made them resentful.

Add into that the price hikes over the years (this is what ultimately made me turn my back on GW products - unless I can finda decent sale on items) and you have a whole bunch of reasons why people would be upset.

GW does good though - their targeting of teenage boys is a boon to our hobby as a whole. Get them turned on to the idea of playing miniature games - then let them branch out and see what else is out there. I initially got into the hobby painting sci-fi figures, most of which were citadel. I then looked at their games, and then other games.

They also push the envelope of what can be done with the hobby. Companies like them, Reaper, Rackham etc.. "kick it up a notch" as far as models go, offering more detail - multipart kits for variety etc.

Their modeling books like "How to paint Citadel Miniatures" and "How to build Wargaming Terrain" are both excellent resources for new gamers as well.

I don't understand the knee-jerk "I HATE GW" reaction myself - to be honest.

I have to second IvanDBA .. I too love the fluff and don't care for the rules for Warhammer or 40k. Many of their other "Specialist" games are quite good. Warmaster and necromunda in particular.

I think it's basically "I want your products, but I can't afford them - so I hate you!"

(But I don't hate GW - I'm a steady customer...)

For me, it is the insane prices and codexes/updates invalidate the army you just finished.

I can't really help myself. I like the fluff....I like the rules. They are what they are...a basic codification of warfare on the tabletop.

Very basic in some respects but also very subtle in others.

I don't hate GW. I understand and actually admire their business acumen and marketing scheme. I like some of their models and used to play their games quite a bit. To me, certain aspects of the core rules have been abstracted and dumbed down and then the addition of many different "special abilities" unnecessarily complicates the core system.

I don't buy their products as they have priced themselves out of my wallet. I still own quite a bit of their stuff. In fact, I have a sizeable metal Cadian Imperial Guard force that I use in Stargrunt.

I can see how some can scoff at GW as "unrealistic" in both deisgn and play. I can see how former fanboys can become disillusioned after their favorite army or unit is written out of the fiction.

The price has a lot to do with it for me. The minis are way too cartoonish for me but they do have some talented people who work for them. There are so many other cool minis and games that are so much cheaper. I just can't waste my time and money on them. I think the real dislike I have for GW stemmed from trying to get people to play something else for variety. It's like trying to get an addict to quit.

CC

I'm sure I've answered this question before.

For me, my vitriol at GW is triggered by the fact that they've done so many things right - the assumption is that they could do it all correctly.

Currently, what's got me cheesed off are the $30 USD Tau cruisers, the $10 USD plastic Terminators, and the stupid balance issues caused by the AP rule. The third, I can fix - house rules exist for a reason - while the first two are interpreted as an attempt to drive me away from the game. (Oh, and reek of Greed.)

Given a choice between buying marketing and buying figures, I'll take the figures. :)

I think I've gotten over GW in my own way. I loved their old figures - the *old* lead Termies I still think are some of the best figs ever. And the Mk6 plastic Marines. I loved the old fluff too. Even the haphazard rulebook (Rogue Trader), and early supplements (like the Compendium). These are the things that got me into the hobby in the first place. They were also the things being sold when I was a lot younger, and as such have a huge nostalgic value for me.

When I get a modern figure, although he'll be magnificently sculpted, if I put him next to my collection of classic marines, he looks bloated. He looks like he wants to play with the new rules, with lots of prefab scenery, and with kids. He looks completely lost in amongst my Vets of the 80s, like a bloated bungler.

But there's no big deal. I just don't buy the new figs - just the old ones from ebay from time to time. I don't buy new rules, I collect the old ones that I didn't get when I was young. No point in getting all hot under the collar about it is there? I can enjoy a good game of classic Space Hulk - with classic Termies too. Don't get me started on Harlequins - how cool are/were they?

If you don't like where GW have gone, then why follow?

Having said that, if I were just getting into the hobby now, I'd find the GW stuff pretty cool - it is, and the fluff is pretty cool too, and the service is pretty cool...

...it's just a little different from what I liked, and I'm apparently incapable of mixing.

Should I bother hitting Submit?

Much as 79thPA says.

But...

Why we should play with the update? After all we can use the old Dex and try to be happy with it.

Anyway I have stopped to buy GW.I am back to 15s mm thanks to the job of Aussies (Eureka Miniatures... I love them!) and Kiwis (Battlefront and FoW). For me is bye-bye GW!

Regards

I appreciate GW.

I love Warmaster and LotR.

I don't care for Warhammer or 40K (the prices, the rules or the fluff).

I love my old Space Hulk game.

If I had Man O' War, I suspect I'd love it too.

Other than that, I don't either love nor hate GW as a company. (What would be the point? Why would they care? How would it help me? Or anyone else?)

Wasting that kind of emotion on a glorified toy company is foolish, and I have no desire to be a fool.

I only play 40K with my son , who by the way loves the game. It takes a long time for him to save enough to buy a blister pack, much less an army or full unit. The game seems to be marketed toward teens and younger , but the prices are too much for the average kid to overcome. Thank God he is showing interest in cheaper minis of the historical genre, my account can not take another army.

GW product is too expensive. My son plays and what he buys for the price is a rip off.

Among others, hating GW is a way of positioning yourself as an elitist gamer who wouldn't lower themselves to like something so low brow (read: popular). It's how to be cool in your tiny clique: eschew GW and play with the most obscure game you can hunt down.

I think "hate" is too strong a word for something like this...

And I don't think that the fact that GW is so successful makes everybody want to tear them down...

I think it is easy to pick on GW because we know that despite our criticisms they will be successful. And they are a full-fledged corporation. That is a big part of it. It's not Brian, Jervis, Rick, etc. running the biz out of their flat anymore... Some dude is pulling down more money than I'll see in a lifetime for running a company that produces toys. Not that I'm jealous, or anything.

The MC thread is up to 41 posts (most of them negative reviews of the miniature), and yet we know that they are going to sell a truckload of these miniatures. So whereas if it was a smaller outfit, and we would censor ourselves a little bit for the sake of being nice (maybe a mild "hmmm, not my style" comment), with GW it's let the big guns rip and no worries...

That, and the power creep, the abandoning of logical rule mechanisms in favor of "coolness", the constant rule changes, addendums, erratas, revisions, etc., and the abandoning of product lines for no good reason, only to re-introduce them several years later at a higher price, etc. makes them an easy target.

For example, I played WHFB pretty regularly from 1999 (when 6th edition first came out) to 2003, yet I never felt like I had a total grasp of the rules, nor that I had a total grasp of what each army's abilities were. Every time I played somebody it was slightly different - and these were tournament players!

Another example, if TwoFatLardies were to suddenly put out IABSM v2 where every German infantry platoon has a Tiger in support, and you couldn't use Italians anymore at all (see Squats), we would give them holy hell (well, I wouldn't since I don't play IABSM, but you get my point).

That being said, I do like that GW and a few other companies are raising the bar in regards to what is considered acceptable packaging, rules presentation, etc. The FoW example given above was very good.

Later,
Markus

GW is the company that, like Microsoft, people love to hate. This is a love-hate relationship, because many of the people who profess to 'hate' GW also continue to buy their products, all the while griping about each annual price increase. It's simply a habit many people can't quit, and they hate themselves for it, though they'll outwardly say they hate GW. Many older gamers will, if for no other reason than spite, spend all their hard earned cash on other games like Warmachine, Void, and no doubt the upcoming Starship Troopers, but GW more than makes up for this loss by gaining new legions of teenagers.

I love GW; if it weren't for them I would never have discovered this hobby. More than any other company, GW has made tabletop gaming the hobby it is today. Their miniatures may be more caricature-like than ever before, but the comic book quality of these miniatures appeal to the same people who like Todd McFarlane's Spawn action figures for the same reasons: they look cool despite all their impossibility. It's a matter of taste. It's a trend in the sci-fi miniature industry today. Just ask yourself this: Are Warmachine warjacks any less cartoony and 'ridiculous' than the new Marneus Calgar or Techmarine with servo harness (aka Doc Ock)?

Gamers evolve. My interest now (as my moniker suggests) is in World War II, but I give credit where it's due. If I hadn't played my first game of WH40K back in '92, when 2nd edition came out, I probably wouldn't be here.

I stopped buying GW products because of the price. There's no doubt the sculpts are high quality, but there are so many competitors out there, there's no reason to pay Games Workshop prices.

I stopped playing 40K and WHFB because I think the game mechanics are kludge and overly complex. Sometimes a four turn skirmish game takes an afternoon. I really don't like the heavy dependence upon complex CRTs. One alternative is Warzone, which seems to have a more streamlined system.

I stopped frequenting their stores because the worst customer service I ever experienced in a hobby store was in two of their stores in the UK. Once is an anomaly, twice a trend.

Last is the attitude toward the hobby. How long has it been since they've endorsed the landspeeder made from a deodorant container?

All that aside, they are a company - they're there to make money by staisfying the needs of their customers. I wasn't satisfied, so I left. Others are, so the company stays in business. So be it.

i dont believe im chipping here but...
i love gw, i love their stuff, i love the fluff, in fact id marry them all if they had the right curvy bits.
BUT who, in the board room, really thinks a rise form £15.00 GBP to £18.00 GBP on a regimental box is going top make the profits rise?
did they go to a different universe for economics training?
your average kid (myself included, even though im 28) might take a fortnight to save for a regiment box. BOOM. 3 quid hike adds another week he has to wait.
he then takes his 15 quid and either buys yugioh or buckfast.
gw profits drop, the hobby suffers, and for what? A boardroom decision that just doesnt make any economic sense.
sack the lot of them.

I would agree with Editor Bill: it's price as an impediment to enjoying one's hobby.

I collected my armies a long time ago, before the GW was able to charge a premium to participate in the official GW hobby (circa 1988-91). It's able to do so because the rules have become the unofficial standard for fantasy and sci-fi gaming.

When you buy a GW mini today you're paying for access to the very popular official hobby and for protected IP in the form of the GW fluff (only GW can make their specific characters and unique troops). It's not quite a monopoly but the closest thing you'll see in gaming and monopolies can charge a premium as long as the market is willing. It doesn't bother me since I only buy the occassional GW product but it does seem to make a lot of people upset.

As to BF and FOW, I don't see hatred against the company but by some fans of the rules against those who disagree with them. I love BF's products, own tons of their minis, have recruited people to the system, play the rules, and think their web site is the best of any mfg (even better than GW's!). And I've said so!

But if you point out the simple fact that FOW is designed to sell products through tourney play and often needs to turn history on its head to meet that objective, a lot of FOW players go crazy and start yelling "Hater!", "Basher!", and worse. In other words, they get REALLY angry.

Typically, a fan of FOW will make the assertion that FOW is "historical" and "accurate". When you point out the obvious whackiness in the rules, they seem to take a historical/game design discussion very personally and quickly go on the attack. They won't even try to prove their assertion by citing historical facts (that's a fool's errand!). It's as if they have some vast personal stake in believing the rules are "accurate" and "historical" in the face of reality.

Players of other un-historical rules revel in their focus on fun and color (eg The Sword and the Flame). But for some odd reason some fans of FOW really need to BELIEVE, against all evidence, that the system is some sort of historically accurate representation of modern warfare. They can't simply enjoy the game for what it is: a fun sales and marketing tool with lots of color. Maybe they're mad because they don't want to accept the fact that they're enjoying a sales and marketing tool? Doesn't bother me, though. Still fun IMO. Just not historical.

Tim

Well my 2 peneth is that its a fasion to hate things some times the make you hate em for an action or a thing they do, but I like GW stuff the Warhammer has done more for us that anything at all ever. Then miniatures some are wonderful and must have, other buy em if you want em, the rules again play them if you want to the system is getting very old and certain bits in them do not work and the update codex will make some armies usless. But GW are good at a lot of things and the products are sound.

Tony

My issue with GW is the apparent disregard for the continued interest of their customers.

Their marketing seems to be cynicaly designed to bring in new fodder, in the shape of spotty youths, who then bug their parents to buy them the biggest/latest/new-version-of figs.

All well and good, I hear you cry. Sound business model, and all that...

However, the cynical bit comes in when you realise that THEN they have a habit of "outdating" their OWN products, forcing those who are committed to purchase more in order to avoid becoming obselete. Those who are old enough, have seen it happen enough times, or are just plain ed off at having to reformulate their armies once again...they fall by the wayside BUT GW DON'T CARE!!!!!

Their whole aim is to bring in fresh blood, suck them dry and then simply move on to a fresh wave of miniature newbies.

That is what I find so annoying. For a store based around a hobby, my perception of them as simply running enthusiasts through the mill in order to obtain as much cash as possible in the minium time with little to no regard for their customer base...well it just rankles.

Just my opinion though!

Like their universe, but I'm a cynic so a universe where everyone is completing for the title of "worst scum" amuses me.

I am fiddling with converting it (faithfully) to Aetherverse. Going well, but slow because I'm doing it only occassionally.

I've dubbed the 40K universe as Beta 40,000 - a far removed universe discovered by accident by AEC researchers working on a new dimensional gate. The warp creatures of Beta 40K are actually Aether creatures, but are quite mad (i.e. insane, batty, psychotic, ape, bug, crazy...)

The AEC has decided Beta 40K should be quarentined and avopided at all costs because the inhabitants make the worst of the other universe seem pleasant and sociable in comparison! Unfortunately, it isn't that simple...

I've had to create and abuse a few rules to get the 40K armies to work inside the Aetherverse rules, but nothing too weird (I strongly suspect the game was originally designed for EXACTLY what I'm trying to do, but I suspect for 2nd edition 40K).

And no, I'm not going to talk about GW themselves.

So: Ptttthhhhhhbbbb!!!!

(Although I have long suspected that their biggest sin is success, but it isn't their only sin)

[However, the cynical bit comes in when you realise that THEN they have a habit of "outdating" their OWN products, forcing those who are committed to purchase more in order to avoid becoming obselete.]

I don't know if I buy that argument. The simpler explanation is that they make changes in each edition to try to improve the game. We may not like the improvements... or maybe we just don't like change.

After all, nobody is actually "forced" into purchasing more - you can still play the old rules, with the old minis; or use the old minis with the new rules.

@Hillman:

I don't play GW games anymore, and I'm perfectly happy with that fact. They're not for me. Does that make me "cool in my tiny clique"? I don't know. I don't think about it like that, and neither does anybody I play with.

On the contrary...I find GW players to be elitist. The prevailing attitude I've seen is one of scorn for non-GW products.

I think your post is a fine example. What do you care if someone wants to play an obscure game? Does the fact that you've never heard of it before make it any less fun? Are they somehow "lesser gamers" because you think your game is cooler?

I think that the "GW attitude" has been spilling over into their players in recent years...GW products are the best...this unit is better...my army is better than your army...etc.

Off I go now to paint my metal magic Yoyodyne figures. They're obscure and therefore not very cool. But I like them, and I can think of a dozen different rules sets I can use them with. 40k isn't one of them.

I dont think they suck by any stretch but I think I've simply out grown them on a hobby level. I've spent years buying and painting their armies. I have way too many of them. I also tend to lose interest in things at the drop of a hat. 8 years of intense interest in anything is a miracle unto itself! For that they should be commended.

I am pretty much over them for the following reasons;
1. I dont have time or money to build huge armies.
2. I dont much care for the cartoony look of some of the stuff. Some are really cool, though, like the tau.
3. I hate putting together plastic regiment that often look inferior anyway.
4.I much prefer vallejo paint to theirs
5. I already own too much.
6. I hate the Americanized version of white dwarf. I much preferred hearing UK terminologies I didnt understand. At least I knew the game was coming from the source and found it more entertaining because of it.
7. The prices have gotten too high for even a wastrel like me :)
8. I am more capitivated by the smaller companies and find I can enjoy more stuff when I stick to warband level gaming. Games like Battletech, Warmachine, Supersystem, D&D and even Confrontation can be enjoyed for less than $100 USD usually.
9. All the great figs being produced by companies like Spyglass, Hasslefree, Shadowforge, Maidenhead, Eureka, Reaper, Rackham, Westwind and many others. Even the plastic D&D and mechwarrior stuff is cool.

Bottom line is that I enjoyed them for a while but my tastes have changed and until they come out with something supercool that I didnt already paint, I am exploring other companies.

BTW I really love the new spacemarines but I been there and done that. I also love the Tau and wanted more battlesuits but at $35 USD a pop for the rail gun model, no thanks. Unless I can find some on ebay.

The only 2 GW products I like are Necromunda and Mordheim. The rest cost more than I am willing to pay for an army. Plus I can use whatever mini's I want for those 2 games and no one I play with cares. I know raw material costs have gone up over the last 4 years, but you can't tell me the cost of a 16 figure plastic box has almost doubled. The last big purchase I made from GW was a space ork army. That was when a box of boys was $20, I am not going to pay $35 USD for the same box now. I am now selling my stuff off on ebay, I can make more than I sold it for because to sell it for more than I bought it for is profitable for me and a discount for someone else. And I personally don't like how WFB or 40k play, if you don't play certain army A with units 1,2 and 3 you aren't going to have a chance. There is definitely no balance in either one of those systems.
Now on to FOW, I don't know what elements are or aren't totally accurate to warfare, but I like the game, because I have a reason to buy historical minis, I can play a game that doesn't take all day to play and there are players locally.

I think GW have done a lot for the gaming industry bring in new blood (some of whom do cross over to historical games). also the quality of there painting and figures are very good.

BUT!

The only thing I don't like is the rules changing every few years, and sometimes it seems to change for change sake. All rules sets have problems and if you try to fix it another one crops up.

GW are the biggest name in the industry lets use them to help make the hobby stronger and keep it alive and it might also mean I find someone who I can beat.

Jules

figuresincomfort.co.uk

Thought -

I bought a copy of Aetherverse to do exactly what you're doing, and then realized that it's really a variant of 40K. So we've gone back to playing 40K with our selection of house rules (we're going to try using AoA's simultaneous phases next), which is easier than converting everything.

We are, however, using AoA with our WHFB armies - though we've got Clan War, too, so it's more of a merging of two systems than a simple redo.

When is Hollywood going to do a 40K movie, I wonder? That could be really cool.

I've often pondered if the people who write rules for most of the GW games arent frustrated politicians or bureaucrats of some sort. Compare something like 40k to , say, US tax code and there seems to be eerie similarities. Neither of them can be understood in their totality by any single human due to the changes and exceptions that seem to happen with frightening regularity.

What I do not care for is the fluff. 40K is just too miserable a place to live in, as far as I am concerned. The universe seems like it was made up by 14-year olds. There are no Good Guys. None whatsoever. The humans' role model seems to be the Spanish Inquisition. Ptui.

John, truer words have never been written. :-)

- - I bought a copy of Aetherverse to do exactly what you're doing, and then realized that it's really a variant of 40K. So we've gone back to playing 40K with our selection of house rules (we're going to try using AoA's simultaneous phases next), which is easier than converting everything. - -

I think it will be easier to introduce a new system to my group, than introduce 'house rules'. I don't know why it is, but my regular gaming group has a real reluctance to house rules, and its not just for 40K, but for ANY game we play.

At least when I run Star Wars D20 with them I can change it any way I like because I am God and my word is law!

I don't have that same luxary when i'm just another player.

Incidentally, the designers notes for Aetherverse said he originally tried to use 'simultanous movement' in 40K (he didn't say it by name, but it was implied). We tried it with Fantasy years back as well. It doesn't work, the system isn't really designed for it (which was why Aetherverse came about).

I wouldn't call Aetherverse a 'variant' of 40K, it has many similarities this is true, but it is quite different in many ways as well. The same could be said for FoW and 40K similar, but different.

- - - -

Tim: There have been several attempts at movies and such, but they always die on the vine.

as ever, please excuse my english

I played some warhammer games before getting into historic games, a lot of time ago.

Although i havenīt any historic rules at hand, i left the game because I didnīt like warhammer. I was 17 years old, but even i had never gamed miniature wargamers, it was clear to me that warhammer wasnīt a wargamer, but a figsgame.

it was the same difference between to play in a RPG a combat using d20 rules and one with runequest rules. D20 just donīt have anything related to "reality"; the same than warhammer. In fact, I found them very similar. A group of minis fight another group of minis; high level boys (even worse, the one high level boy in your army) kill the other playerīs big boy; the rest of his army routs.

So I found their rules very stupid.

Itīs overly overpriced, too, and I find too many of their minis "too cartoonish".

By the way, I liked a lot the world of fantasy warhammer, and I loved the warhammer FRPG.And I found very fun their space marines game.

Just that WFB wasnīt about battles to me, it was about fantasy characters fighting another fantasy characters...

Oh, and all those stupid things that Warhammer players were used to do, like argue for every rule, study the codex trying to find the "hole" to make a superarmy, and the like

Uh, where I said:

"but even i had never gamed miniature wargamers, it was clear to me that warhammer wasnīt a wargamer, but a figsgame."

I wanted to say:

"but even me, who had never played a miniature wargame before warhammer, I thought that warhammer wasnīt a wargame, just a toysgame"

Played/ liked it couple of years ago. Now it's to fast for me, new Codices every few weeks, tons of special rules, new rulessets on a regular basis. Worst is the redone figure lines all the time, when you have finished painting an army you are already outdated. It's also to tournament driven for me, most people I see gaming use the 2000pts pitched battle approach.

It's true you can use old figures but I would want the new ones when I liked them. It's also true you could use the old rules but I don't know anybody playing them.

Last but not least some of the people that play Warhammer XY in the local shops scare me.

Finally, I have the feeling that I grew out of this kind of fluff. The background is childish and most of the new figures look stupid and the plastics have the quality of toys from pennyshops. I'm awaiting the first Orcs with moveable arms.

I don't hate GW, the prices are the only thing keeping me from being a customer. End of story.

GW is being run as a business. And its big business at that as well.

If you look at their operation, they are a huge manufacturing concern. In addition to the lead figures, they have developed the capacity to produce plastic figures - and they have virtually no competition for manufacturing the plastic figures. If you think of the sheer quantity of figures they must produce to keep their retailers AND their own stores stocked, the numbers must be staggering.

They have what some would consider to be a publishing empire. In addition to White Dwarf, they publish a number of other magazines. Plus consider all of the supplements to the Fantasy rules, WAB, and the other rules they publish from time to time. Whether one loves or hates the rules, they have been polished for over 20 years. WFB has gone through six editions and a couple of major revisions. They have been playtested extensively (both internally and by the gaming public). Quite frankly, no one else is offering the quality of writing, editing and publishing that GW offers. Like most publishers, GW is in the business of producing books - and they do a darn good job at doing it.

They own a chain of stores around the world. How many other British companies will own at least one store in every major European and North American city? In the U.K., these stores are often found on the high street. No one else in the gaming business seems to have ANY dedicated stores.

They have a vertical monopoly. One can be involved in gaming and never do business with another concern. Everything you need can be purchased from GW. (Sort of like the old Standard Oil).

Since they are a big business, they act like one. People do not have warm fuzzy feelings when they think of their telephone company, Citibank, General Motors or any other corporate behemoth. We know that they are all interested in profit maximization, and usually at our expense. But, they do deliver a quality product. Efficient? Yes. High quality product? Yes. Loveable? Hell no!

I don't hate GW. I find them... odd.

I love the new plastic ratties. They're super. Expensive, but customisable as heck.

I miss plastic beaky-marines. I miss those original beaky metals, with their whacky looking weapons.

I liked the 40k background. It's a dystopia, it's supposed to be dark. Even the Marines, the Angels of Death are flawed...

I miss the background. They keep removing bits.

There's this thing about power-gaming. Reading the warhammer forum, I understand now only someone who wants to lose the game bothers with just blocks of infantry anymore. It's all characters and special units. In 40K they started fielding chapter founders at one point; pretty much the 20 most powerful human beings ever, and they used to turn up to every battle.

There's not fixing the rules; the debates about how charging is supposed to work. "In order to declare a charge, you must have line of sight to the enemy unit, and be reasonably sure that you can complete the charge to the proper zone of the enemy unit, using the normal movement rules. A charge that is obviously not going to be successful may not be declared."

I mean, how is that not just asking for an argument to start. "reasonably" - In whose mind?

Creating rules so open to interpretation that every game becomes like a court hearing... that's not good. Taking 6 editions and still not having fixed tham is really bad.

The thing that makes me sadest about them is their "not play fair" attitude. Refusing to discuss the idea there may be other people in the industry. It always seems kind of childish.

I do miss original 40K though. Reading the rulebook now is... bizarre... it's like looking at a completely other company's product.

Incidentally, the designers notes for Aetherverse said he originally tried to use 'simultanous movement' in 40K (he didn't say it by name, but it was implied).

I remember reading that - he tried using the Clan War initiative system, the poor guy. It's not that you can't do psuedo-simultaneous movement in 40K (we've done it with the Great Rail Wars system), it's that Clan War's system is ponderous, and not one I'd recommend.

That's one of the reasons we stopped playing Clan War. The wife plays Scorpions, and they're the absolute extreme of Clan War intiative fiddliness.

And in case you're wondering - the reason we're not using the GRW system is because it's got a practical upper force limit that's actually fewer units than a large 40K force org.

Ed, I get where you are coming from, but alas you ARE forced to purchase the new and improved versions/armies/rules. You have to do so because the Store, and on a larger scale, Gamesday, is where you get to play against others!

I am something of a cynic, it is true. But I can recall a friend of mine coming home pretty damn annoyed at having been turned away from a store game because he wanted to field his (excellent) Squat army. "Not Codex no more sunshine"!

I don't hate GW games. I hate GW the overly greedy and totaly clueless business.

Give me a break, $50 USD for 5 plastic termies! I don't care how many options you get on the sprue $50 USD is a bit much.

GW has become a bit to overly protective of their so called "intelectual property", and they have priced themselves right out of many possible customers range.

And just look at the first quarter reports for this year to see the effect of the little upstarts that are nipping at their heels. There are too many new and relativly good systems out there now and GW does not know how to handle it.

Jesus H Christ. I can't believe we have to go through this again. I really want to leave this alone, but people keep bringing up stupid strawmen arguments and bogus insulting personality assessments.

Fine.

I don't hate GW. I think their an unethical company that puts out schlock. I think they do damage to the hobby, by attempting to define themselves as the hobby, then dumbing down the product and insulting their customers' loyalty, resulting in driving people away from the hobby when people should just be driven away from GW.

They attacked the british and European gaming markets in a way to ensure that there were almost no outlets for other games. They built stores right next to successful GW-carrying independent retailers, then undersold them and short-ordered them until they went out of business. When Warzone came out, Brits were ordering the game from the US because they did not know where to get it in England. This was a designed corperate strategy to cut off access to other products. It was anti-free market, and anti-consumer, and has never been recovered from.

They cut out the middle men (distribution), offering them ridiculously bad discounts, especially considering the quantities they make and sell. They passed on none of the savings to you. They then cut the discount they give retailers. They passed none of the savings on to you.

Cutting out distribution and going directly to major independent stores allows them to collect data on what stores are successful. They open up their own stores based on that data, leaching off of the efforts of the indy stores to build up a GW clientelle.

They treat many independent retailers badly. They have crazy high minimum orders, designed to keep store owners resources tied down to get better discounts. Their advertisements often badmouth the idea of supporting local stores, to encourage people to buy direct from GW. Periodically, they massively short order products going to stores, but they never run out of mail order supplies.

Locally, two stores closed up in frustration with dealing with them, both of them operated by friends. One was threatened with "we could open a store up right next to you and sell more, you should increase your order". One, which only discounted the starter boxes 20% to help bring in new customers, was cut off from direct sales because they felt they knew their local clientelle better than GW. One store was told the sales figures from other local stores to coerce larger preorders. A store in Pheonix told me the GW reps occasionally tell them to stop promoting other lines, then start delaying their new orders until a week after every other local store has got them. A local store was told to kick out everyone over the age of twenty from the gaming tables.

As a customer, I had a massive group of Epic players whittled down to nothing by the way they cancelled it and brought out epic 40K. Half the players could no longer player their armies - they were completely unsupported. People who did stick around became frustrated by the poor quality of the new game, where blast marker generators could win games on the first or second turn, and poorly costed out AT weapons dominated if the blast marker cheese was absent.

As a customer, I saw dozens friends become frustrated with price increases, unsupported armies during edition changes (or cancellations), and poorly written and playtested rules. These people left wargaming entirely, because of the lack of known options at the time. Dozens of people I brought into the hobby on the backs of GW games.

So, I don't dislike GW for the canards of "don't like success" or "because they are big" or "I can't afford them". The first two are stupid strawmen from people trying to dismiss legitimate criticism. And I can afford them, easily.

I dislike them for how they achieved that success, by tearing down non-GW parts of the hobby instead of making great, affordable products. I dislike them for their goal of sucking every entertainment penny they can out of existing customers, instead of expanding the hobby to new customers.

I dislike them because of how they abused and continue to abuse every level of business for the hobby. I dislike them for how they treated me as a customer, and my friends as customers and store owners. I dislike them for their attempt to "own" the wargaming hobby, and unwillingness to promote the wargaming hobby better with their vast resources.

As a player, I dislike their rules systems. I dislike their nonsensical backgrounds and fluff. I dislike the power creep, and the necessity of their rules sets to bring games to artifically early resolutions. And I dislike the entirely unnecessary price increases that tell me they think their customers are idiots.

As a competitor (in the same sense that a lemonade stand competes with McDonalds), its a mixed bag. I dislike how the market is so wrecked for small companies, but like that there are so many ex-gw players looking for something better. Fortunately, the business is as much a hobby as the wargaming, so I don't really need it to be a money maker, and I can just worry about quality.