"India Pattern Carriers" Topic

Over the past couple of years, TMPer, FoW Forum frequenter, and all-around expert and helpful gentleman R. Mark Davies has effectively quashed Battlfrnt's assertion that the India Pattern Carrier (Mark II) can be used as a one-for-one replacement for Universal Carriers by Indian Army troops. He points out that the IPC (more frequently the Mk I) was employed as the equivalent of a scout car by Indian cavalry regiments--before they were converted to motor infantry just in time to be overrun at Gazala.

As there are no models of the Mk I, or the later Mks III and IV, which might fit in to the odd spot that has been documented (Central India Horse's mortar troop, for example, had Mk Is), what can the poor, deluded customer who has amassed a collection of Battlefront or QRF India Pattern Carriers do with them?

Besides handing them off to 18th Recce Regiment in doomed Singapore, that is…

Allen

I enjoy your posts Allen. Your search for arcana is amazing.

Search for something to do with two dozen bleedin' useless models, more like!

And the arcana are the result of R. Mark Davies' amazing research, not mine. I just sit at the feet of the master.

Allen

ouch…2 dozen is pushing it….I have 4!

but…..a blast from the past…

TMP link

Oooooh…possibly better or more likely as well as with 2 dozen of these beasties

Recce unit (indian cavalry) of the 8th Indian division, Italy 1943.

Illustration no 45 of BT whites book.

Tanks and oher armoured fighting vehicles 1942-45

Aren't India Pattern Carriers still in service in Bongolesia? You could supply them as military assistance (for a healthy profit of course) with t-shirts that say:

"I visited the West looking for modern military equipment but all I could find was these stinking Indian Pattern Carriers. And I don't even think they are really carriers, I think they are scout cars!"

Line them up on your lawn, and launch cheap fireworks at them. That's what my brother and I did with all our excess India Pattern Carriers when we were kids (luckily we used to holiday in France, where unlike at home, cheap fireworks were available in shops to kids – no questions asked).

"Recce unit (indian cavalry) of the 8th Indian division, Italy 1943.
Illustration no 45 of BT whites book.
Tanks and oher armoured fighting vehicles 1942-45"

'Fraid not (and by now, I would think people would be a liitle leery of White):

Mr. Davies has previously posted:
_____

6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers (8th Indian Division Recce Regt) in Italy 1944-45
(taken from Indian Armoured Corps official history)

RHQ in 'armoured trucks' – i.e. White Scout Cars or halftracks
HQ Escort Troop of Humber Scout Cars

3x Recce Squadrons, each with:
SHQ with Scout Car & 2x Humber Mk IV Armoured Cars
3x Bren Carrier Troops (3x Bren Carrier LMG sections)
1x Assault Troop (large infantry platoon – 4 sections) in Halftracks

Support Squadron
Mortar Troop (6x 3-inch mortars, carried by Universal Carriers)
Heavy Troop (6x M3 GMC)

Notes
1. From November 1943, one Bren Carrier Troop was replaced with 3x Humber Mk IV Armoured Cars
2. From October 1944, a second Bren Carrier Troop was replaced with 4x M8 Greyhound Armoured Cars
________

On other words, no IPCs. The CIH mortar troop I mentioned above had the only ones he has found in Italy.

Allen

link

Indian troops in Occupation of Mid-east? Boring scenarios perhaps.

What about Burma?

Postwar NEI?

I am sure that with enough digging we could find some in French use in Indochina?

Not to mention partition and crowd control during the flight of '47.

OK, there's one; that's an addition to the knowledge base. What do we know about that carrier? Where did it fall in the organization?

Allen

There's a photo of another one belonging to the same mob (6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers – Watson's Horse) in Italy in 1944 in the Indian Army Osprey.

So that's at least two they had.

Er, hang on a minute. It might be the same one, as the bloody fools are standing in front of it, so I can't see the number on the front. Hmm, the camo pattern is very, very similar, but not I think identical. Different one.

There's also a photo of one belonging to Skinner's Horse, with the words "Bengal Police" emblazoned on the front in big letters, as it had been paid for by subscription from members of that august organisation.

New Zealand artillery in Korea although those weren't Indian built.

link

OK, that's two! Thank you, gentlemen. I think Mr. Davies may have some comments on these.

Yep, NZ artillery in Korea, and other post-war uses; but right now, I'm looking for WWII applications. PAIFORCE would be good (6th DCO there, as well as 10th Motor Brigade: CIH and Skinner's), but it seems to be a devil of a problem figuring out the internal organization for that timeframe.

Allen

Then there's the question of where to stick this Dingo in the organization:

picture

It's titled: "A scout car crew of 6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers, Indian Armoured Corps, chat with youngsters in San Felice, Italy, during the advance towards the River Sangro."

I actually would like to do 8th Indian Division if possible: lovely possibilities with Gurkhas, and Churchill support--but I have to find a home for those IPCs! Thus the leading questions…

Allen

Its apparently on 'patrol' and was taken early November 1943 by the 2nd Army film and photgraphic unit, so it predates your list above. You could ask the IWM for the range of photos from NA 8532 to about NA 8592 and see what's there.
NA8592 is a humber scout car from what I could see.

1 down, only 23 to go Allen! Edit: doh 2 down now!

But on the other hand, how many pictures of white scout cars have you seen for any Indian recce regiment or for that matter halftracks? When in 1944 did they get them and what did they replace? the rest of the 'armoured trucks' that hadn't been scrapped in iraq?

Whites book is the very vehicle in the photgraph so thats where he got his illustration

Don't forget that the orbats I gave you are for an unspecified snapshot at some point in 1944, as mentioned in the Indian Armoured Corps history. God knows what they had before that! A curious omission from the squadron orbats are LRCs. A recce squadron would normally have a mixture of armoured cars, LRCs, carriers and an assault troop (occasionally also a heavy troop), but the LRCs are missing here. Maybe they had worn out and not been replaced? So you could semi-legitimately field Mk II IPCs for a 1943/early 44 force.

The HQ Escort/Liaison Troop would almost certainly have had IPCs and/or Dingos before the Humber Scout Cars were delivered.

Aside from the cavalry, lots of units in Italy, of all nationalities used them as HQ vehicles and liaison vehicles. I've even seen a Polish one. Various Commonwealth units also used them widely as OP vehicles and engineers also used them as engineer recce vehicles.

You can also use them pretty widely in the Far East – the Australians used them in Malaya and Singapore, while 3rd Gwalior Lancers, 16th PAVO Cavalry, 81st West African Recce and a few others all used them in Burma as their standard LRC 1943-45.

Kevan, I have seen one photo of an Indian halftrack, but it was impossible to identify the unit.

Yep, all good. But as I'm sure you know, White has required correction on a few things, so that's an automatic flag. Not that I haven't had them all since I was a nipper!

Take a look at this thread for some of the background:

link

Allen

For some reason, 8th Army Royal Horse Artillery batteries are allowed to take IPCs as transport for the FOs, Command, and Staff teams. So I've got four of them myself. I can't understand why this is allowed though.

Allen & Kevan,

Re that earlier thread Allen linked to – I've recently posted a Burma armour painting guide on the Fire & Fury site. Have you seen it? I can't link it from here, as the work computer blocks it as 'Games', but it's linked from the Painting Guides forum.

Re that Dingo photo – it's got a diamond RHQ tac-sign, so is almost certainly from the RHQ Escort/Liaison Troop.

Ivan,

That's cos the RA & RHA often used IPCs as FOO vehicles in Africa and Italy.

Here's that thread linking to my Burma painting guide (I see Allen has already seen it):

TMP link

Well then, it's jolly good that I never got any for my Sikhs, eh wot?

If you already have them, does this come under "no harm no foul"? They seem identical in all respects in thestat lines.

[RMD] Don't forget that the orbats I gave you are for an unspecified snapshot at some point in 1944, as mentioned in the Indian Armoured Corps history. God knows what they had before that!

Point taken.

[RMD] A curious omission from the squadron orbats are LRCs. A recce squadron would normally have a mixture of armoured cars, LRCs, carriers and an assault troop (occasionally also a heavy troop), but the LRCs are missing here. Maybe they had worn out and not been replaced? So you could semi-legitimately field Mk II IPCs for a 1943/early 44 force.

Exactly the point I hoped you would raise! And by "proxying" IPCs for Humber LRCs, suddenly an Indian recce squadron looks a lot more like the standard template for British recce. I think that is my solution.

[RMD] The HQ Escort/Liaison Troop would almost certainly have had IPCs and/or Dingos before the Humber Scout Cars were delivered.

Not so much a concern of mine, if not doing more than a squadron, but a useful point.

[RMD] Aside from the cavalry, lots of units in Italy, of all nationalities used them as HQ vehicles and liaison vehicles. I've even seen a Polish one. Various Commonwealth units also used them widely as OP vehicles and engineers also used them as engineer recce vehicles.

Yep. I am looking for the "teeth" end, but good to know.

[RMD] You can also use them pretty widely in the Far East – the Australians used them in Malaya and Singapore, while 3rd Gwalior Lancers, 16th PAVO Cavalry, 81st West African Recce and a few others all used them in Burma as their standard LRC 1943-45.

Burma is still down the road for me, but that is another option. Any info on detailed recce organization there?

[RMD] Re that Dingo photo – it's got a diamond RHQ tac-sign, so is almost certainly from the RHQ Escort/Liaison Troop.

Good. Any thoughts on the ethnic composition of 6DCO? The last I have is from Singh Sandhu, for 1937, which indicates Jats, Sikhs, and Punjabi Muslims, but no breakdown by Squadron. The Sikhs on the Dingo and non-Sikhs (I'm guessing Jats, from their stature) on the IPC make an interesting mix.

You've made my day, expanding on the absence of LRCs. I should have asked that specifically, back when I asked you about the size of carrier sections in the carrier-equipped troops. But I think I have something to go on now, even if it's speculative.

Still have to do some Humber Mk IV conversions, though…

Thanks to all of you!

Allen

>>> If you already have them, does this come under "no harm no foul"? They seem identical in all respects in thestat lines.

For Flames of War? Well, an IPC counts the same as a Universal Carrier, except that its mobility is "Jeep" rather than "Half-tracked" (Don't start!!!). An IPC is the same as an LRC, if mounting a Boys, except that it has a Hull MG instead of a Turret Front MG. They have the same top armor, which is a little odd, the LRC not being completely open.

That's for "Afrika" and ""Festung Europa"; "Fortress Europe does away with the Commonwealth options entirely. You have "North Africa", of course. The "Festung Europa" recce list is a little awkward in having Hunber IV armoured cars in the troops and none in the squadron HQ, and "Afrika" has none in the SHQ; but one of those may work with some creativity.

Allen

Absolutely – the IPC Mk2 was always intended to be a LRC.

I've no idea re ethnic composition of the cavalry regiments, sorry. Unfortunately this is a very difficult topic to research and you generally have to dig out individual unit histories, which isn't easy. They would have been segregated by squadron (or by troop or section in the support elements). From the photographic evidence here, it does look as though C Sqn was Jats and the Liaison Troop was Sikh (as well as probably one of the squadrons).

I'd field the armoured cars as a distinct troop – ignore their placing here in the SHQ. Normally there would be a distinct armoured car troop with equal numbers of armoured cars and LRCs (as many as six of each).

Here's where the Flames of War lists get a little squinky.

A FoW British recce squadron consists of:

SHQ: one LRC

2-3 Troops: each with five LRCs, of which up to three may be exchanged for Humber Mk II or III armoured cars; or after Jan '44, three Humber Mk IV armoured cars and two LRCs; *plus* up to two carrier sections attached per troop

Up to the entire Assault Troop

Up to the entire Mortar Troop

Up to an entire Antitank Troop

No M3 GMC or AEC Heavy Troop

In the mid-war list, there is no points difference between a Humber II/III AC and an LRC. In the late-war list, a Humber IV is more capable because of its 37mm, but I'm thinking of just going ahead and fielding IPCs in place of both Humber IVs and LRCs; adding the two carrier sections per troop--with just two troops--and calling that good enough.

That or writing up an Indian cavalry list that BF will probably never accept!

Allen

Very interesting.I'm planning on an order to Armstrong for
his 2 carriers as well as the latest PRC armor.All in 6mm.

David

Allen,

That list does seem rather odd. If it were me I'd also add the Heavy Troop option for Italy, as well as the option to replace Humber Armoured Cars with Daimlers in NW Europe, or with M8 Greyhound in Italy.

Re Burma Recce:

I've not got a lot of info, but the Indan Light Cavalry (armoured car) regiments essentially followed a similar organisation to Indian Cavalry Regts and British Recce Regts in Italy, though they lacked Heavy Troops. Assault Troops would be carried in 15cwt trucks and not halftracks. Some units used Mk 1 IPCs in lieu of Universal Carriers, but these seem to have been mainly used in India, Iran and Iraq. They used either Daimlers as their main armoured car (c.1944-45), or a mixture of Daimlers and Humbers. Scout Cars could be Dingos and/or IPCs. As in Italy, some units (such as 16 (PAVO) LC)went to a partially-jeeped organisation.

81 West African Recce does not appear to have used armoured cars at all – just IPCs and Carriers. They went totally dismounted/riverine early in 1944 and 82 West African Recce followed suit when they arrived in-theatre.

The British 2nd Recce Regiment went very light, being mainly jeeped and dismounted, with only a few Carriers to provide some mobie,armoured fire support.

The Recce Troops of Armoured Regiments could have Dingos or Carriers – often with Jeeps available from the Liaison Troop as an alternative.

Infantry Battalion Carrier Platoons were frequently dismounted as Bren-heavy 'Recce'/'Assault'/'Commando' platoons – sometimes transported by Jeeps (some would retain the title 'Carrier Platoon', even when the Carriers were long-gone). There is a very good example of the 2nd Norfolks using its dismounted Carrier Platoon to conduct recce as it outflanked the Japanese positions at Kohima and then using its massed Brens as a base of fire to cover the Norfolks' assault. There are also examples of Brigades creating 'Brigade Carrier Groups' by massing all their battalion Carrier Platoons into one unit (this was particularly prevalent at Imphal). In 1942, many Indian Carrier Platoons were using Mk 1 IPCs.

[RMD] Allen,
That list does seem rather odd. If it were me I'd also add the Heavy Troop option for Italy, as well as the option to replace Humber Armoured Cars with Daimlers in NW Europe, or with M8 Greyhound in Italy.

I'm hoping that as BF starts to develop specific supplements for Italy, they'll pay a little more attention to the peculiarities of organizations in the theater. The first one won't do any good: they're doing FSSF and the HG: go figure…

[RMD] Re Burma Recce:
I've not got a lot of info, but the Indan Light Cavalry (armoured car) regiments essentially followed a similar organisation to Indian Cavalry Regts and British Recce Regts in Italy, though they lacked Heavy Troops. Assault Troops would be carried in 15cwt trucks and not halftracks. Some units used Mk 1 IPCs in lieu of Universal Carriers, but these seem to have been mainly used in India, Iran and Iraq. They used either Daimlers as their main armoured car (c.1944-45), or a mixture of Daimlers and Humbers. Scout Cars could be Dingos and/or IPCs. As in Italy, some units (such as 16 (PAVO) LC)went to a partially-jeeped organisation.

Would you write that up, with as much detail as you have, for the BF Research section, please?

[RMD] 81 West African Recce does not appear to have used armoured cars at all – just IPCs and Carriers. They went totally dismounted/riverine early in 1944 and 82 West African Recce followed suit when they arrived in-theatre.
The British 2nd Recce Regiment went very light, being mainly jeeped and dismounted, with only a few Carriers to provide some mobie,armoured fire support.

[RMD] The Recce Troops of Armoured Regiments could have Dingos or Carriers – often with Jeeps available from the Liaison Troop as an alternative.

[RMD] Infantry Battalion Carrier Platoons were frequently dismounted as Bren-heavy 'Recce'/'Assault'/'Commando' platoons – sometimes transported by Jeeps (some would retain the title 'Carrier Platoon', even when the Carriers were long-gone). There is a very good example of the 2nd Norfolks using its dismounted Carrier Platoon to conduct recce as it outflanked the Japanese positions at Kohima and then using its massed Brens as a base of fire to cover the Norfolks' assault. There are also examples of Brigades creating 'Brigade Carrier Groups' by massing all their battalion Carrier Platoons into one unit (this was particularly prevalent at Imphal). In 1942, many Indian Carrier Platoons were using Mk 1 IPCs.

Same for all the above: tremendously good stuff. Flames of War has to do the Pacific at some point, although I'm betting that the CBI theater will be subordinate and secondary. Please give them some good data to run with, as you have most consistently done before. This is why you are my hero!

Oh, and if anyone can help find images of the IPC Mk I, that is a very tough one to find (as RMO has said), and would be a good thing to provide to manufacturers.

Thanks,

Allen

Martin Small has found some film of Mk Is (taken during Gandhi's funeral, of all things, as well as some film of Mk Is in an internal security operation) and a number of written descriptions, as well as a photo of the Guy Carrier, on which they were loosely based… But that's about it! Incredible when you think that they built hundreds of the things! Martin hopes to eventually dig out enough info to produce a master model, but it's still a long way off yet.

Nothing to add to the very comprehensive main thread but WRT French Indochina, I've never seen evidence of Indian Pattern carriers in use there, although there were all manner of other oddities to be seen.

If you've got some you don't want Allen, I'd be happy to relieve you of them! ;^D

Here's a photo (rear-quarter view) of the Guy Wheeled Armoured Carrier, upon which the Wheeled Armoured Carrier (India Pattern) Mk I was based:

link

However, note that this was a rear-engined beast, whereas the IPC Mk I was front-engined.

Edit: For some reason the link won't open the picture directly. Scroll down the list on the left of the page and click on 'Guy Wheeled Carrier'.

And here's a surviving Wheeled Armoured Carrier (India Pattern) Mk IV:

picture

Note that the Mk IV was a development of the Mk I and apparently shared many of the same features, including an engine at the front.

Gee, I wish I had 24 India Pattern Carriers going spare! I have 3 and can't figure out how to fit crew and weapons into them!

I believe,sir, that you have the Mk. numbers incorrct in your post. The Mk. I saw no active service and was a completely different beastie. The two Mk.'s that saw combat service were the Mk. II and variants, and the Mk.IV.

There are pictures around if you search for them. One in the Osprey Elite title The Indian Army 1914-47. Shows an IPC and crew chatting with aged Italian.

The New Zealand Carriers saw no service outside of NZ to speak of until Korea, but they are essentially the same vehicle.

I'd like to know what information you have on mortars being carried in the IPC's. I have a British Pathe newsreel video on file that shows a column of IPC's and CMP trucks in " Combat" and it looks like there is a mortar being fired from an IPC. I'd like to know mounting details and calibre. Check it out under " E-boats of the desert".

I do agree that they can't be used exactly as Universal Carriers, just not enough room!

Mr. Davies, the engine of the Mk.IV is at the rear ! Just a lower superstructure and an added on box for the driver's head.

Where do you get your information? The Mk I saw active service in India, the Middle East and the Far East, plus a very small number in the Med (source: Indian Armoured Corps History). However, as a result of being employed mainly in secondary theatres of war it didn't see much combat – the only engagement I've come across was the ambush of the Carrier Platoon of 7/10th Baluchs (equipped with Wheeled Carriers IP Mk I), north of Rangoon in 1942 and the only pictures I've ever seen of them were post-war newsreels (mentioned above).

I'll take your word for it re the Mk IV's engine. George Forty and Hanno Spoelstra both say it was front-engined, being a direct descendent of the Mk I (the Mk III being a descendent of the Mk II).

I've not come across any SP mortar variants, but it's intriguing.

Information from years of research on the brutes! Never heard of Hanno Spoelstra so I had to look him up. Mediocre mass-market books if you ask me. Much the same for George Forty. Good for photos, but lacking in real information.

I can see how they'd think it was front engined, if they only looked at the chassis pictures. Rather an awkward looking arrangement. But you only have to look at the vehicle and the space available to see the engine is in the back; after you take into account the space taken up by the driver!

There's a good picture of a India Pattern Carrier Mk.I in the book Great Tank Scandal from the Tank Museum in Bovington. Don't be distracted by the bloke with the ridiculous trousers in the foreground! Also a representation in B.T. White's book . Totally different beast from the MkII. Only about 10 made, locally; not by Tata Iron Works.

The Mk.I only became the MkI when there was a MkII. It was built on a pick-up chassis so engine was at the front. Two man crew. The MkII's were built on Canadian CMP chassis modified to be rear engine drive. As were the Canadian Fox and Lynx armoured cars. So were the MkIII and MkIV.

I checked the shots of Ghandi's funeral. I'd say those were Mk.IV's or other armoured trucks.

There's a good article on the India Pattern Carrier and the NZ Carrier in Wheels and Tracks, Issue 41.

I've only seen a couple of poor shots of mortars in India Pattern Carriers in newsreels and captures from newsreels. I'd like to see more, like which way the mortar faces! Any body got some shots?

Also if anybody has shots of turreted India Pattern Carriers, either MkII C or MkIII; I'd love to see them.

"There are pictures around if you search for them. One in the Osprey Elite title The Indian Army 1914-47. Shows an IPC and crew chatting with aged Italian."

Yep, Plynkes mentions that above.

Allen

So what's the verdict on using these in Africa, not Italy? I see from the below that Allen is subbing them into Recce Squadron – but that's for Italy?

Did the Indian Motor regiments use the BF / MkII IPCs as substitutes for the Bren Carriers in their scout patrols?

I was thinking of using the IPC as a "distinctive" for Indian Motor Company in EW / MW. Did the IPC make it to Africa in early 1941? What date did they start using it?

______________________________
Here's where the Flames of War lists get a little squinky.

A FoW British recce squadron consists of:

SHQ: one LRC

2-3 Troops: each with five LRCs, of which up to three may be exchanged for Humber Mk II or III armoured cars; or after Jan '44, three Humber Mk IV armoured cars and two LRCs; *plus* up to two carrier sections attached per troop

Up to the entire Assault Troop

Up to the entire Mortar Troop

Up to an entire Antitank Troop

No M3 GMC or AEC Heavy Troop

In the mid-war list, there is no points difference between a Humber II/III AC and an LRC. In the late-war list, a Humber IV is more capable because of its 37mm, but I'm thinking of just going ahead and fielding IPCs in place of both Humber IVs and LRCs; adding the two carrier sections per troop--with just two troops--and calling that good enough.

That or writing up an Indian cavalry list that BF will probably never accept!

Allen

Free French mine clearing raid?

OK, had time to do a little research last night with North Africa. It seems that BF is doing what you both advise (at least in the desert) and allowing the Recon platoons of universal carriers to be replaced with IPCs.

Interestingly, when the Indians switch from 8th to 1st Army in Tunisia, they lose the IPCs. Unknown if this is an error or deliberate. Can anyone clarify?

Didn't want to repaint them for Italy?! I do not know. Thanks for resurrecting the thread!

Allen

I figure that the IPCs had been shot up and replaced with something else by the time the Indians were attached to 1st Army, but that's just a guess.