"burma British divisional markings " Topic

…specifically for for tank brigades and recon units

Any online source?

Haven;t seen any. But you ought to know who to call!

Allen

Not for Burma that I am aware of but there is patchy coverage of other formations at e.g.

link

or

homepages.force9.net/rothwell

'Divisions of the British Army 1939-45' by Bellis is a very inexpensive and comprehesive source of unit markings, tactical serial numbers etc.

I can't recall if armoured brigade tac markings are in Fortys 'British Army Handbook', but they are certainly in 'British Military Markings 1939-45' by Hodges & Taylor.

I recall someone in some thread giving actual discriptions of the markings, just cant find that thread!

50th Indian Tank Brigade had a black disc, with an upraised first & forearm in white.

254th Indian Armoured Brigade had a yellow triangle, with what looks like train tracks disappearing into the distance in black (four black horizontal bars ('sleepers'), with two upward-pointing, narrow triangles laid across them ('rails')).

255th Indian Armoured Brigade was a flattened royal blue triangle, with a charging black bull facing right, with long yellow horns and red eyes.

Have a look here for who had what, when and with whom:

PDF link

Armoured Cars were generally corps recce regiments, so would carry the badge of the relevant corps (IV, XV or XXXIII). Some regiments such as 81 West African Recce Regt were divisional recce regiments functioning as corps recce, but would retain their divisional badge. Most Indian Divisions in Burma did not have mechanised recce regiments – only a foot recce battalion.

By 1945 the tank/armoured brigades were using the same tacsigns as those in NW Europe – 50/51/52/53/54 on a red square.

Squadron signs were in the seniority colour, as for regiments serving in other theatres. They were generally painted on the rear-quarters of the turret. the troop number was painted within the squadron sign, in the same colour.

Allied Stars were painted for the 1945 offensive into Burma. They were generally painted on the hull sides and were BIG – much larger than their NW Europe equivalents. Vehicles with low hull sides, such as Carriers, often had the star's points 'clipped' by the top and bottom of the hull! Presumably they only had large templates?! Circled stars were painted on upper surfaces. Some vehicles such as Stuarts and armoured cars often had the star painted on the turret.

Shermans and Lee/Grants were often seen with a two-digit code painted centrally on the rear of the hull. This was not the troop number, but was some sort of individual tank callsign – rather like that used by the 4th NZ Armoured Bde in Italy or the 27th & 33rd Armoured Brigades in Normandy.

burmastar.org.uk/33corps.htm

Here are the three corps badges:

link

burmastar.org.uk/15corps.htm

burmastar.org.uk/33corps.htm

The pnly British armored brigade in Burma was the 7th; it's sign, according to Hodges and Taylor, was a green "desert rat" on a white roundel. The three Indian armored brigades, typically, are not covered.

Did infantry divisions in Burma *have* recce regiments on the European and Middle East pattern? Once the nine British armored regiments and eight Indian cavalry regiments listed in Perrett's "Tank Tracks to Rangoon" are accounted for… only 11th Cavalry (PAVO) Frontier Force had Daimlers.

Allen

Well, while I was digging through books, R. Mark Davies answered my questions. I told you that you knew who to call, Kevan!

Allen

oh i knew. I was sure it was his post on another thread, but this is great.

thanks guys!

the recce squadrons with mixed humber II' s and IP carriers would be corp level assets? i am really pushing my luck but any unit identifications for these for 4th corp?

Pretty please Mr davies?

7th Armoured Brigade was there for a few months, during the retreat from Burma – only one Stuart got back to India, while the rest had to be 'scuttled' (some being recovered by the Japanese 13th Tank Regt – they had five still running in 1945). I'm not sure whether the Jerboa was green in Burma though – I believe it became Jungle Green immediately after their return from Burma, as a commemoration of their key part in that fighting retreat. Photos of 7th Armoured Bde Stuarts in Burma appear to have their old 7th Armoured Division badge – red jerboa on white disc on red square.

50th Tank Brigade was also British until after the First Arakan Campaign of 1943 and was designated Indian thereafter when it incorporated Indian units.

Have a look at the link I gave above – it cross-references the info on vehicle types (gleaned by Mark Hayes from the official Indian Armoured Corps History), with the periods of attachment and dates spent 'at the front' given in Chris Kempton's 'Loyalty & Honour' and other sources.

As you can see from that chart, Daimlers were used in action by the 11th & 16th Cavalry, with the 8th Cavalry also arriving with Daimlers right at the end of the campaign.

Most (but not all) Indian Infantry Divisions had an infantry battalion designated as the divisional Recce Battalion. As far as I've been able to discover, none of these were mechanised. Some of them also had a Cavalry Regt attached as mechanised recce (the only example I can find of this are the 8th & 19th Cavalry, who were both attached to 19th Indian Division at times).

There were also ultra-light 'Scout' Battalions, which came and went between formations and had nothing heavier than Brens. One example was the Tripura Rifles and of course there were many similar units formed from natives.

Of the British Divisions, only 2nd Division had a conventional Recce Regiment, which when committed to action at Dimapur/Kohima, had an unusual establishment of four squadrons. At this time it retained troops of armoured cars. For a period it was forced to dismount three of its squadrons. After the relief of Imphal, the regiment was converted to 'Light' Recce, which meant that it lost its armoured cars, but retained its 'Scout Cars' (LRCs?) and Carriers. However, during the 'Blitzkrieg' of 1945, it suffered serious losses due to mechanical failure and at the end of the campaign only had enough for two troops of scout cars and four troops of carriers. The rest fought on as infantry.

36th Division didn't have a Recce Regt, while 45 Recce Regt was converted to Chindits.

81st (West African), 82nd (West African) and 11th East African Divisions all had mechanised recce regiments, though in the case of the West Africans, they were 'Light' in that they had no heavy armoured cars. 81 WA Recce Regt served as XV Corps Recce Regt Dec 43 to May 44 and was dismounted thereafter (even serving as a riverine recce regiment for a time). 82 WA Recce Regt was committed to action late in 1944, but it isn't clear if it was mounted or dismounted. I don't know whether 11th EA Recce Regt was heavy, light or dismounted.

As for India Pattern Carriers, Scout Cars and Light Recce Cars, I'm afraid that the histories are very scant on detail. The official Indian history only lists types of heavy armoured cars (i.e. those with turreted weapons).

The term 'scout car' is used in virtually all sources to encompass Scout Cars, Light Recce Cars or India Pattern Carriers Mk II. The term 'Carrier' can also include the India Pattern Carrier Mk I, which was like a wheeled Universal Carrier and was used by some Indian cavalry regiments (the Mk II IP Carrier being very different and designed as an LRC rather than as a true carrier).

As for IV Corps, there wasn't a designated recce regiment for IV Corps, though 254th Armoured Brigade served with IV Corps until October 1944 and 255th Armoured Brigade thereafter.

The 11th East African Division also had the 11th EA Scout Bn in addition to its Recce Regt. It was an ultra-light scout bn, with nothing heavier than Brens.

I saw some pictures of IP carriers with the markings 142, which is a unit designation I hadnt seen before.

And I am targeting Bombay grenadiers as my unit…..any use of IP carriers in their carrier platoons, Any info on specific vehicle useage late 44-45??

i am assuming they had a standard motor battalion organisation.

And by the way…great stuff. I had tank useage pdf of yours before, but this is even better!

I'm afraid I haven't got any info at all on unit flashes, beyond working out that they used the same as NW Europe late 1944/45 when Armoured Brigades were standardised. It's certainly a gap in my knowledge that I plan on filling toute suite, though to be honest, as vehicles don't feature very much in my Burma armies, I haven't given it a lot of thought until now! Vehicle pictures are so rare from Burma and more often than not they're covered in mud anyway!

The companies of the Bombay Grenadiers were each attached to an individual armoured squadron and they became VERY adept at protecting their tanks. There were four platoons per company and each platoon rode in CMP 15cwts, so rather different to elsewhere, where one of the four platoons was designated 'Scout' and rode Carriers.

So no Carriers of any sort, I'm afraid – IP or otherwise! I imagine that Battalion HQs might have had some, but I've got no info at all on the Bombay Grenadiers at battalion level (mainly as the battalion structure is largely irrelevant – they were always found as independent companies).

The only place IP Carriers existed in the official establishments was in Indian Cavalry Regiments – Mk I used in lieu of Universal Carriers and Mk II used in lieu of Scout Cars. Of course, other units also got their hands on some – RA OPs for example.

Anyone got £3,299 spare to find the answer?!

link

Hmm, maybe we should email them a decimal point….

link

RMD, i'll have to look at your F & F orbats to identify the regiments I want to do.

I Know this is real BANAL, but i have to ask!

Anyone know if their CMP's had type 12 or type 13 cabs?

CD and QRF do type 13, PP do 12's

I have IP carriers, Lees , some daimlers, humber 2's
I'm seeing 254th brigade shine up here at the moment.

3rd carabineers, 3/4th bombays and 11th PAVO appear to be the men for the Job! humbers look like going back to europe! So 33rd corp is looking like my corp level assets now.

Mark, Dom – a typical Amazon markup…… ;-)

Wonderful line off of the radio a few days ago; "I'm very English, in fact I ordered a book from Amazon called How To Have Nothing To Do With Your Neighbours. Unfortunately I was out when they tried to deliver it…."

LOL – Um, there are different types of CMP 15cwts?! ;o)

If it's any help my Skyterx CMPs look just like the ones in the pictures of Burma!

Oh, Dodge Weapons Carriers were also popular in Burma and also came under the '15cwt' tag. The CMP was the real workhorse, though.

It's also worth mentioning that some regiments are known to have used Jeeps in lieu of AFVs at verious times and often on an ad hoc basis. This was especially the case in infantry Carrier Platoons (while others dismounted them altogether).

thats a type 13 then! the windscreen sloped forward.

the type 12 was a slight slope in. they actually look quite different.

I suppose there must have been 11 types before them! The type reference is to the cab top i think which was shared with other vehicles like the 3 ton truck.

I have your 14th army battlefront pdf and was giving that the once over….excellent stuff. looks like my IP carriers will be part of an infantry division and the rest will by 254 brigade.

thanks again

Glad you liked 'em! :o)

In mitigation though, they're getting on a bit now and need some work (mainly in the African department – see my stand-alone 81 WA Div orbat, which is somewhat different to what I wrote earlier in the 14th Army TO&Es).

It's difficult to know where IP Carriers fitted in during the latter part of the war, though I would say that you could fit them quite happily into any Indian Cavalry Regiment in lieu of scout cars or LRCs. The majority of recce Indian Cavalry Regiments conformed roughly to the British Recce Regt organisation rather than Armoured Car Regt organisation. An orbat I've got for 1943 shows a mixture of Crossley-Chevrolet IP Armoured Cars, IP Mk II Carriers as LRCs/scout cars and IP Mk I Carriers as infantry/weapons carriers.

So if you wanted to do PAVO (for example), I can't see anything wrong with mixing in IP Carriers as the scout car element – the histories don't mention them, but that doesn't mean that they weren't used by the PAVO.