"Somuas? Two for a penny" Topic

When the Germans invaded France and the low countries in 1940, what happened to all the hundreds of tanks, AT guns and other hardware that fell into German hands? I seem to recall that there were a few French Somuas and the like in the Cherbourg peninsular in 1944 but they must have only represented a fraction of the 1940 total.

Thanks

M

Some French tanks were used in anti partizan units throughout Europe. Others were converted to SP guns and the 21st Panzer in Normandy had a very eclectic mix of converted and unconverted French equipment.

Some of the turrets removed from French tanks converted to SP guns were used in the Atlantic Wall defenses as well.

Thabnks for the answers so far.

Any idea if surviving equipment was ever deployed as a full battalion, company, battery etc?

Mikasa:
Some Somuas were sent to the Italian Army where they were deployed to defend Sardinia. Some were sent to Balkan countries but I can't remember which one(s) right now. Some were used in France by the Germans. The French spirited some away to Africa and the Middle East before the surrender. I am not sure if any were handed over to the Vichey French – but I doubt it as the Somua was an effective tank. Some were used by the Germans in the East.
Many were used for spare parts and as mentioned above turrets were used in field fortifications.
Rod Robertson.

I thought the topic of French beutepanzers and the use of other French equipment had been pretty well flogged to death here already.

Allen

Have a search. As has been said, it's been pretty comprehensively discussed here on many, many occasions.

In a nutshell, absolutely everything went back to the factories of manufacture, where it was assessed by the Germans and then modified, serviced and repainted according to German specs.

Many vehicles were later converted to other roles by 'Baustab Becker' and were used in a wide variety of formations – 21. PD being the most famous, but my no means the only formation to use such equipment.

A.E Curtis:
There will always be wide-eyed neophites seaking enlightenment so questions will naturally be repeated. What colour are the crystal spheres which our solar system is made out of? What is the Aether and how is it different from Phlogiston? Where did all the Somuas go? These are the questions which will dog mankind for an eternity!
Rod Robertson.

The Prinz Eugen SS Division was equipped with lots of French tanks for Anti-Partizan duties in the Balkans and in southern Russia. If I recall correctly, there was a Panzer Battalion in the division which was nearly completely equipped with French equipment. Here is a link which has photos of the French Renault R-35 in Prinz Eugen service, they also had a few platoons of Char B tanks, some R-40's, H-39's, and I believe a platoon of FCM D-1's. link

The 21st Panzer Division in 1944 was filled with captured French equipment from Lorraine carriers, SOMUA and Char B tanks which were cut up and made into various configurations with German weapons and collectively known as "Rommel's Funnies" to many Allied units.

Most of the rest of the French tanks were either destroyed in the battle for France, destroyed at Dunkirk, or were given to the Vichy government in Southern France. Some vehicles made their way across to North Africa where they broke down and were either destroyed or abandoned. Remember that there were around 6,000 tanks in French service at the start of hostilities. Losses in French tank divisions were very high as they tended to be destroyed by artillery, air assault, combats with German armor and anti-tank weaponry, and more commonly by being scuttled by their crews when the vehicle ran out of fuel during the many retreats. In the fall of France, many of the French tanks were scuttled by their crews rather than allow them to be captured by the advancing Germans.

Que the music: "Where have all the SOMUA's gone, gone to graveyards every one."

Pz Abt 211 in Finland had some Somuas and lost at least two fighting the Finns in the Lapland War.

Thanks Jovian

That's the tanks covered. What about other French hardware? I presume the French 75s at least were pushed into service…

Mikasa, some Soma's were used on the German armoured trains for as mentioned, anti-partizan duties in the East. As for the 75's you mentioned, after 1941 alot were converted to PAK guns to deal with the T-34's for the 3.7 cm and 5 cm Paks were not cutting it on the Eastern front. After the German's produced the PAK 40, most of the converted French 75's PAK guns went to the Hungarians and Romanians to beef up the infantry's anti-tank units. I am sorry I forgot the offical German PAK name for these conversions, but I am sure someone here will remember it and post it. BTW, the Germans also gave the Italians alot of the non converted French 75's.

There were still Somua S-35s in Tunisia in 1943 they were used against the Germans once the French re-joined the allies.

Oops! Forgot one of my favorite quibbles. As an acronym, even in French, "SOMUA" should be all caps:

link

By the way, the German designation for the converted Canon de 75 modèle 1897 was "7.5 cm Panzerabwehrkanone 97/38". It's not necessary to remember these things, as there are many ways to look them up.

Allen

Oh What the heck Ill repost this again LOL. :) Robert

Major Alfred Becker, a First World War veteran and mechanical engineer, was heavily involved in the conversion of captured vehicles from 1940.
In 1942 he converted captured French carriers into the 15cm (Sf) Lorraine Schlepper self-propped gun, which meet with great approval from the OKH. These were shipped to Afrika to supplement Rommel's forces in the desert.
Towards the end of 1942 he was transferred to France to devise ways of utilising various captured French vehicles. Becker's engineering staff set about their work and were soon pumping out a variety of innovative designs. From 1943 he started to convert the Hotchkiss H35 and 39 light tanks to mount a 7.5cm PaK40 or 10.5cm leFH16 as an assault gun. In the summer of 1943 he was given command of the 200. Sturmgeschützabteilung, part of the rebuilding 21. Panzerdivision, which he equipped with the new assault guns. By the time of the Allied invasion in June 1944 he had built the StuG abteilung up to five batteries of 10 vehicles (4x 7.5cm PaK40 and 6x 10.5cm leFH16 each). Becker was however more than just a simple engineer. In 1914 he had won the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class, and during the fighting Poland had added the 1939 Bar to each of his crosses (commanding the 15. Batterie, 227. Artillerie-Regiment, 227. Infanterie-Regiment). For his inventive use of captured vehicles he was awarded the War Merit Cross 1st Class with Swords and by 1945 had earned himself a Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross with Swords.

And a little more,

The answere is simple: One single person (Hpt. Alfred Becker, 227. ID (Artillery) was in charge ot the salvage the whole French captured AFV's. He collected the scrap in one place and did a triage with the vehicles:
1. Minor repairs and refits
2. Major repair and refits
3. Spare parts source

The the vehicles where repaired by importance all of one type in one step. All remaining spare parts where stored away. What was left was shipped back to the steelworks.
The Wehrmacht had only on Alfred Becker, so most captured vehicles in Russia where doomed!

Alfred Becker was an interesting guy. He started the war in the west with his Batterie (12.) horsepowered. After reaching the first dutch artillery depot on the way of 227. ID he equiped his Batterie and the recon element of 227. ID with motorized vehicles.
OK, motorized is fine, but mechanized is better. So Becker started to refit his Batterie with SPA's (!!!) (BY HIMSELF, WITH AN ARCWELDER !!!! ). After 6 month the FIRST armored artillery Battery of the German Wehrmacht was combat ready (without one vehicle build by a professional manufacturer!!!). The armoured artillery vehicle was composed from Vickers Mk.6 under-carriages with 10,5cm Feldhaubitze 16.
After that Becker was instantly transfered to Alkett to help this armourworks build a SPA on a French Lorain ammo-carrier.
In 1942/3 Becker salavaged all usable tank wreckage he found in France as described above. Now his unit was called "Baustab Becker". His production output (more than 1800 tanks and other Vehicle) was used to form "verstarkte schnelle Brigade West". Becker was also simultaniously commanding officer of Sturmgeschütz-Abt. 200 (later Sturmpanzer-Abt. 200).

link

Major Alfred Becker and the Paris Baukommando
link

Just in regard to the reference that the Vichy French got tanks in North Africa.

IIRC on History or the Military Channel the Patton 360 series, has French Renault R-35's of the Vichy french in Morrocco going up against some Stuarts and them naval bombardment hitting the R-35's.

"An interesting bit of information: The American army's first run in with an enemy tank in WW2, during the landings in North Africa, was against this one. French Vichy forces, reacting to the invasion, advanced with infantry and 7 Renault FT-17's against 3 American Stuart light tanks (under General George Patton). The encounter left 3 FT-17's destroyed and caused the French to withdraw. The Stuart's never suffered a single hit."

link

The Americans ran into some of these "panzers" again on D-Day. US Paratroopers landed near La Fiere on the Merederet River with the intent to capture and hold a bridge there.
The bridge was captured after a brief but fierce fight. The paras settled in and awaited the inevitable counterattack.
Pz. Abt. 100 supporting infantry attacked them two or three times without success. Pz. Abt 100 was equiped with various French (R35, Hotchkiss, SOMUA, etc.) & German (Pz III) tanks. Two or three R35 and a Pz III were knocked out at the bridge by Bazooka and AT Gun fire.

Lots of French artillery ended up in Heer artillery battalions. The 155 was rather more popular than the 75 as it went BANG instead of pop.

Trucks were used to flesh out the motorised branches of the German armed forces, but most of it broke down and was lost in Russia.

Panhard armoured cars were also a popular addition to recce units.

Two for a penny? is that something like the 99 tacos for 2c in the Jack-in-the-Box commercial?

I thought someone was having a sale when I first clicked on the post!

@Allen – how could you forget that it is SOMUA after correcting me all those months ago!

Old age and past vices take their toll.

OK, here's the highlights of all that sexy captured French war booty grabbed up by the Germans in June 1940:

* Over 400 47mm 37SA anti-tank guns -superior performers compared to the then-standard 37mm Pak 36- were taken into German service, mainly given to infantry formations that participated in Barbarossa the following summer… and proved just as outclassed by the T-34 and KV-1 as the newer and larger 5 cm Pak 38…

*M1897 75mm guns were later fitted by the several hundreds to a modified Pak 40 gun carriage and fitted with a special muzzle brake to give the German soldats on the Ostfront a bigger gun to take on the T-34s and KVs with…

*Over two thousand (2,000) Renault UE Tracteur Leger armoured utility tractors were captured and taken into German service, serving as prime movers for AT guns and weapon carriers in infantry formations (their original purpose), as airfield utility tractors for the Luftwaffe, as armoured machine gun carriers after being refitted with improvised casemates and guns hields for airfield security and anti-partisan duties, as armoured artillery observation vehicles, and even as SP mounts for "stuka auf fuss" artillery rocket launchers.

*French tanks were highly prized for their bigger guns and heavier armour than their German contemporaries. Their one-man turrets and short operational ranges however limited their tactical flexibility, and the Germans made use of hundreds of captured French tanks for anti-partisan, garrison, and specialist missions, often with few modifiactions more significant than fitting them with German radio sets and notek lamps in the case of the light tanks and SOMUAs.

*The Char B1bis was a potentially useful beastie, and a number were converted to Flammpanzer B2(f) standards by replacing the hull-mounted 75mm howitzer with a flame projector. Grouped with Panzerkampfwagen B2(f) gun tanks (ie., unmodified Char B1bis gun tanks) in independent companies, a number of these were sent East into the Crimea to help reduce Soviet strongpoints in the siege of Sevastopol, while others were assigned to Waffen SS Division Prinz Eugen in the Balkans. Still others wound up as part of the garrison in the occupied Channel Islands, and others wound up later confronting the British airborne forces in Arnhem (where one Flammpanzer B2(f) was photographed on the outskirts of the city after being knocked out by a British AT weapon). Over 40 Char B1bis and Flammpanzer B2 were listed as still on strength with Heer combat formations at the time of the surrender in 1945!

*The SOMUA S35 was used as a platoon and company commander's tank for formations equipped with captured Hotchkiss H38/39 light tanks, and Renault R35 light tanks (several hundred of each being in German service after 1940). Some were modified into command tanks with the 47mm main gun removed and replaced with a dummy gun, extra radio equipment and other commander's paraphernalia filling the interior void left by the gun breach and ammunition stowage.

*Panhard P178s were captured in modest numbers, and were highly prized as recce vehicles. All were used up IIRC as such on the Ostfront and battling partisans.

AFAIK after circa 30 years of looking into the subject of French armour, I have found only one or two photos showing the Char D2 in German service. The simple fact was that the D2 was an older design, was not made in great numbers, and the few that would have survived the french Campaign were IMHO too few to justify continued use of a vehicle the French Army had been planning to phase out when the war broke out.

The same applies to the older Char D1, except that I have yet to find *any* evidence written or photographic showing the Char D1 in German service. AFAIK the Char D1 was limited to French service (although quite courageous service as it turned out, both in 1940 and later in 1943 in Tunisia).

The Char Legere FCM 36 was made in limited numbers as well, equipping only two BCC (Battalions Chars de Combat) in May 1940. Most were lost heroically trying to stop the panzers at Sedan and in assorted delaying actions along the line of their army's retreat. Still, enough of these fairly advanced designs fell into German hands, who were impressed with the well-sloped armour, welded construction, and diesel powerplant to convert two dozen or so over to SP mounts for 7.5 cm Pak 40s and 10.5 cm light field howitzers for service with 21st Panzer.

*Heavy artillery, ranging from 155mm M1917 GPF guns to the huge 220mm Schneider-Creusot Mortier and other assorted lethal relics of The Great War were used by the Heer to supplement their artillery park, especially on the Ostfront around Leningrad and Sevastopol. Many hundreds of assorted French hardware found their way into the Atlantic Wall.

French small arms were used as well, as were French grenades, and even some aerial bombs.

Bottom line: the French did indeed make some effective weapon systems in their day, and the Germans acknowledged this by snatching up anything and everything they could to supplement shortfalls in their own production, help bolster their allies such as the Finns and Italians, and replace combat losses when their own stocks came up empty.

French trucks were highly prized, as the aggressive acquisition program of Waffen SS Division Totenkopf attests to. At the end of the French Campaign, Theodore Eicke, their fanatical and clinically deranged commander, used his authority and political clout as Himmler's pet psychopath, and snatched up enough French trucks, anti-tank guns, armoured cars, and other goodies to expand his Waffen SS Regiment Totenkopf into the Waffen SS 11th *Division* Totenkopf in time for Operation Barbarossa the following summer!

One of my reference books has a series of photos of Totenkopf motorized infantry, all riding in precisely painted and appropriately modified troop carriers that just happen to be *Renault* trucks formerly of the French Army, seen on the move somewhere in Russia in the summer of 1941…

Other users of French hardware included Romania (R35 tanks, UE tractors made under license, Schneider 47mm AT guns), Italy (SOMUS S35, Renault R35, Breguet 693, Dewoitine D520), Finland (25mm 37SA, M1897 75mm gun, Curtiss Hawk 75, Morane Saulnier MS 406/410, etc), while ex-French R35s were on several occasions captured from the Germans by Tito's partisans and duly inducted into the ranks, refitted with Russian 45mm anti-tank guns, and deployed against their former wrongful owners.

Hope all this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Pz Abt 211 in Finland had some Somuas and lost at least two fighting the Finns in the Lapland War.
Hello Andoreth you mean the Germans used these against the Finns?Could you share some info on this Lapland war was it related to the Continuation war that ended in 1944?
Best regards
Gui

The 'modest numbers' od Panhard 178 ACs that Leland mentions were still enough to fully equip 2 German Recconaissance battalions in 1941.

Armoured units under the command of 319. Infanterie-Division in the Channel Islands:

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 319 – 11 x 4.7cm Pak (t) auf Geschützwagen R-35 (f) – based in Jersey

Schnellen Abteilung 450 – 11 x 4.7cm Pak (t) auf Geschützwagen R-35 (f) – based in Guernsey

Panzer-Abteilung 213 – Abteilung headquarters in Guernsey with 2 x Pzkpfw B2(f) command tanks

1. Kompanie in Jersey, with 12 x Pzkpfw B2(f) and 5 x Pzkpfw B2(f) Flamm

2. Kompanie in Guernsey 12 x Pzkpfw B2(f) and 5 x Pzkpfw B2(f) Flamm


Also mentioned were some 8 FT-17s(Panzerkampfwagen 17R/18R 730(f)) that were relegated to airfield defence when the other armor showed up in Mar 1942. Robert

The Char Bs which fought at Arnhem were part of Pz Ko 224 under the command of KG Tettau. One had the distinction of being knocked out by a 17pdr (and IIRC also featured in the film 'Theirs was the Glory')

*M1897 75mm guns were later fitted by the several hundreds to a modified Pak 40 gun carriage and fitted with a special muzzle brake to give the German soldats on the Ostfront a bigger gun to take on the T-34s and KVs with…

I believe they were fitted on a modified Pak 38 (50mm) gun carriage, not Pak 40 (75mm).

This previous thread has alot of info too.

TMP link