"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

What is not helpful are the systematic slanted comments and propaganda against the move. While you can make all sorts of reasonable arguments against the move – costs, distance, bad planning or even "I just don't like Baltimore", intelligent discussion ceases at comments on the sterile environment of the BCC, vague notions of conspiracy theories enacted secretly by the BoD or that the Host facilities are not at capacity.

These comments seem to be addressed to me, so allow me a response.

1) I'm sorry but, "I don't like Baltimore" is a VERY good reason to not want a convention in that town.

2) You are the only one mentioning conspiracy theories.

3) We were "sold" on the idea that we "need" more room to grow. The extra room has gone to two large tournaments that have had a limited relationship to the HMGS-East conventions in the past.

4) I didn't see how Historicon '09 was at capacity or beyond capacity at all. A quick look at previous threads will indicate I am not alone in that assessment. YMMV.

5) I have been to Origins, also held in a large Convention Center in a good sized city. The facilities are clean, well lit, and still sterile. I liked the "homey" atmosphere at the Host. I, apparently, am guilty of having a different opinion that that of yours.

6) Please don't brand me as being "not helpful" and characterizing my comments as "slanted" and "propaganda" because they are different from yours. "Intelligent discussion" indeed.

For the record, I am going to Baltimore in 2010. I am looking forward to the city as I have never been there before. I will probably be GM'ing some games too. I don't want Historicon to fail, I don't want HMGS-East to fail, or any of the other crap I read from the "Baltimore fan-boys".

Ralph

What has now become crystal clear here is that the only reason "we" needed more room was so that GW and Flames of War tournaments could be played at Historicon. Without those two, there was no such "need".

Cui bono?

Actually I like this.

Joey

Flicking gamer, one of the problems is the youth (30 and less ) gamers who do not remember why the initial need for historical oriented conventions back in the 1970s-80s.

I was just stating that this is not a new issue of concern. Historicon and other historical oriented conventions were started for a justifiable reason.

Now the waters of historical gamer needs seem to becoming murky. many other comments are personal ones.

As i have said in the past, it is an HMGS-East organization show and whatever they do is fine.

Now if a majority of the membership has problems with that then there are a number of ways to show dissatisfaction.

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. As the saying goes desperate men do desperate things…and make no mistake, it is desperation time at the East home office. They've made a bad decision worse by making further bad decisions in a vain attempt to correct the first mistake. Haven't we heard this GW panecea before at Timonium, and yes there were some GW games but the interaction produced no tangible benefit the East.

The continuing saga of the BCC move has so many parallels with our national nightmare its rather scary…lack of accountability, hidden agendas and unrestrained spending. Before the koolaid drinking blue fez brigade gets their panties in a wad let me reassure them that's all I'll say about that.

More later about the financial committment of East to guarenteeing a minimum number of hotel rooms for BCC…another shoe is about to drop.

db

Dear Ralph:

"These comments seem to be addressed to me, so allow me a response."

This was not my intention at all. In fact, it was addressed to the usual suspects. On balance, I see good and bad reasons for the move and your comments seem pretty reasonable, Ralph. No hard feelings. However, there are many comments being made that are just not reasonable and sometimes even illogical. I find it very difficult not to comment on these items (for better or worse!).

1) I'm sorry but, "I don't like Baltimore" is a VERY good reason to not want a convention in that town.

I agree and that was one of the reasonable arguments I listed against a move.

2) You are the only one mentioning conspiracy theories.

That's just not true. There are numerous statements about personal agendas, including on this thread.

3) We were "sold" on the idea that we "need" more room to grow. The extra room has gone to two large tournaments that have had a limited relationship to the HMGS-East conventions in the past.

I believe that might be true. I also understand there is additional room at the BCC to accommodate them. I'm not sure whether this statement is for or against.

4) I didn't see how Historicon '09 was at capacity or beyond capacity at all. A quick look at previous threads will indicate I am not alone in that assessment. YMMV.

Facts are facts. We had tents outside, people were excluded from the dealers hall and the flea market, tournaments could not be accommodated, people are excluded from lodging at the Host, etc. Now, I characterize facts for a living and I could probably characterize them in a way that suggests there was plenty of room. However, the only way I could do that is by stating that none of those groups is deserving of being included. I don't think that argument is fair and I think that they all should be accommodated if it's possible. If the con moves, then I think it would be fair to pick a suitable space that can comfortably accommodate them, especially if they fit in line with the charter. Can you imagine if the con was short on space and had to decide whether to exclude the DBA tournament or the WAB tournament? It's a hard job to balance these things.

5) I have been to Origins, also held in a large Convention Center in a good sized city. The facilities are clean, well lit, and still sterile. I liked the "homey" atmosphere at the Host. I, apparently, am guilty of having a different opinion that that of yours.

I think the Host is homey as well, but the facilities are lacking in many ways. If you read my posts, I'm pretty objective about this. While the Host facilitates socializing, the lighting, air and layout does not facilitate gaming. It's a trade off. As much as you feel like you shouldn't be attacked for liking aspects of the Host (which I do by the way), I feel like I shouldn't be attacked for wanting better lighting and space.

6) Please don't brand me as being "not helpful" and characterizing my comments as "slanted" and "propaganda" because they are different from yours. "Intelligent discussion" indeed.

This was not my intention, Ralph. If I had a problem with you specifically, I'd call you out on it. I'm not one to back away from a confrontation. One of my occupational hazards is that I'm truly fine agreeing to disagree. In fact, I believe disagreement is the best topic of discourse. Many people do not. In any event, no hard feelings.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

db is correct. There is a mighty big shoe about to be dropped in all this.
nycjadie: yes and no, the dealer hall at Historicon 09 was sold out, but a large company had to back out at the last week and the dealer coordinators could not fill the space in time, so we had gaps. No valid historical miniature gaming manufacturer was turned away for lack of space.

Now if a majority of the membership has problems with that then there are a number of ways to show dissatisfaction.

Bitching and whining does not seem to help.

Wow, this really can be a narrow-minded, good-old-boy hobby. Folks need to relax.

There is only one true "large" miniatures convention in the nation and that is Historicon. Miniatures at Origins only survived because of the involvement of HMGS-Great Lakes. Miniatures events at GenCon is a laugh.

Perhaps "Historicon" should stay in Lancaster and a new all-minis national convention should be created that would include everything -- historicals, fantasy, sci-fi, FoW, GW, whatever.

On a side note -- GW stopped attending conventions years ago in lieu of their own Games Days across the country. I wonder if GW would not have attended Historicon 2010 if it wasn't in Baltimore.

On a side note -- GW stopped attending conventions years ago in lieu of their own Games Days across the country. I wonder if GW would not have attended Historicon 2010 if it wasn't in Baltimore

Looks like they are cutting back on their games day expenditures based on this review:

link

I'm reminded of C. Heston's quote at the end of "Planet of the Apes" when he views the ruin of Lady Liberty. I 'll let you find it on YouTube; it's very appropriate to what's been done here by HMGS.

Sadly, Oggie

It is similar to what James Donald said at the end of Bridge over the River Kwai.
Coincidentally, same book author.

You mean this Oggie?

YouTube link

Adding the large fantasy component to the Historigins is a great idea to raise additional funds to make up for the Historical players that cannot attend. 200 more attendees will make up the difference.

Many will become members of the Historical and Fantasy Miniatures Gaming Society – East (HFMGS -E) and vote in more fantasy oriented board members. Then the future conventions can return to the original concepts of Origins with Fantasy Miniatures, and Board Games, and Card Games (they will not take space away from the historical gamers -- maybe hotel rooms) ORIGINS East will arise to rival the ORIGINS Midwest which is adding more historical miniatures events, thanks to good efforts of HMGS-GL.

"Not really a surprise. has anyone seen that WAB at game days. I have heard that it is hard to get a WAB game allowed at a game day in a lot of places. Just a rumor, I bet."

Actually, Rudy, yes:

warlordgames.co.uk/?p=571

Sponsored and put on by a non-GW company, Warlord Games, which did not sell their products at the Games Day. Pretty cool setup, huh? Kids playing historicals? Amazing.

Now that was last year, before GW stuck the beefy torpedo to Warhammer Historical in March; and this year's UK Games Day did *not* represent the historical side well:

TMP link

link

But that's because WAB itself is now foundering with no hand at the tiller and a raw crew, being swept onto the reefs of oblivion.

Apart from the UK, US players have conducted WAB demos at various US Games Days. That was never able to be supported by the one-man WHW band in Nottingham, but energetic US WAB players pulled it off.

And far be it from me to defend GW, but of *course* they're jumping at the opportunity to participate, with the drawdown in US Games Days and the economy in general. Is it a sin to try to gain some synergy with the FoW tournament crownd and the 40K crowd?

If this potentially expensive excursion is mitigated by the gate from those participants, then I would think cries of "Hallelujah!" might be in order, rather than wails of gloom and doom. And there will be crossover: some 40K and FoW tourney players will be exclusively focused on their games, but some will be making purchases at the vendors' tables as well.

And there should be plenty of space in the vasty, sterile halls of the BCC. Perhaps enough that the cries of "Waaagh!" will not fracture the fragile psyches of the purists.

Ways to show dissatisfaction? The record shows that HMGS-East members just don't vote. The BoDs are elected by a tiny minority of the membership. That doesn't mean that even a small pitchfork and torch mob can't effect a change. But don't be deceived that the elections represent the wishes of the general membership, because the great majority of them can't be bothered to express them at the appropriate time.

Criminy, people, seize the opportunity.

Allen

Yes GB, towards the end, it's the one.

Wow. I am sorry I was living in Texas back then and the conventions covered everything. What seemed to end the conventions there was collectible card games, not non-historical miniatures. I remember even playing BOARD GAMES at conventions. In fact, that is how I found historical miniature gaming. Bunch of the Yaquinto guys got me to play ACW in 15mm as a kid. Then 1/285th tanks. The rest is history.

In Atlanta all they seemed to play was GW stuff, but we managed to sneak a few historicals in. It was how I discovered WW2 skirmish gaming.

I am not thrilled about the Baltimore move, but it is more because the actual proximity is endangering it remaining a full, 4 day visit for me and my group, simply because it is close to some of the group I go with, making it hard for me to continue to justify a hotel, which makes driving back and forth less attractive. 2 hours each day driving, often late at night, has no appeal for me.

Having visited the venue I am ambivolent. Having been stuck off in the outer reaches of the Host and having players not able to find the room where I set up, I can't say the BCC would be any worse there.

Having GW and FOW running stuff does not really bother me one way or the other. I pretty much am able to ignore FOW at the Host now, so giving them abd GW a miss when they are downstairs while most of the variety of the cons historical games are upstairs seems to be a non-issue. Other than shopping downstairs, there is little to draw me down there.

And if you have to have movie scenes related to the issues, try this one. (NSFW!) "Who the hell are *they*?"

YouTube link

Allen

Nycjadie,

Thanks for the measured and even reply. Makes my comments look a little "needy" and for that I apologize.

I will have to disagree with you on Historicon '09. There were gaps in the Dealer Hall, for the reasons Master Caster gave. As a WAB tournament player our restrictions were caused by the growth of the Flea Market and space restrictions due to the Americans with Disabilities Act and fire regulations, depending on who is telling the story. This has been going on for about 2 years. With all that there were still empty tables in the Lampeter room on it's busiest day, Saturday. Most blamed the the economy for that.

As for the lack of lodging at the Host, it still beats the BCC does it not? Also my $200 USD a night room in the Comfort Inn is now $120 USD for Historicon. Is that all from negotiations by the HMGS or is some of this underwritten?

Yes the BCC will have a plethora of more space. But I think the BOD wanted these two National tournaments here. I think this took priority over greater room for us mere gamers. Like John the OFM asks, "What has now become crystal clear here is that the only reason "we" needed more room was so that GW and Flames of War tournaments could be played at Historicon. Without those two, there was no such "need"". Also, like Shogun and TigerG, I wonder if GW would even be interested in Historicon, if it were not held in Baltimore. I just don't see the line we have been fed adding up.

Ralph

Yay, we have a good old fashioned brouhaha going!

I think it's a great opportunity for history gamers to show piece their wares to a bunch of hard core brain washed super nerds that wargaming is not just Games Workshop.

Well, you can't say H-con 2010 won't be interesting at least.

I wonder if GW will take issue with dealers discounting their wares at 25-30% off retail…?

I would like to see an official reply to Goldwyrm's question about what the GW organization and attendees will pay the HMGS for all those tables and space.
When the local press shows up to cover Historicon 2010, it will be interesting to see what they pick up on. Will it be the battles of Wagram, Gettysburg or Alesia, or a battle between armies of orcs? Like many others I am also concerned that we are losing our identity and purpose.
Have you walked into a game store lately and asked for historical miniatures? The chances are they scoffed at you.

So back to the question for this thread. based on some comments, GW will not have 100 dealer tables? The tables are for their tournaments.

Didn't HMGS-E have an election post the Historicon move announcement? How did that election go as regards the pro v anti move faction?

On a different note, I don't play 40K or WHFB (never have, never will), but I don't care if GW wants to run a tournament and expose 200 of their folks to our games. As to the FOW Nationals, that's great, it is a historical game that belongs just as much as DBA, DBM, FOG, Warrior or WAB or more since if promoting the hobby is a prime goal (not really one I agree with but..)shouldn't the best promoter take precedence?

Historicon may or may not work out in Baltimore but carving out a little space in that cavernous structure for a couple of tournaments won't matter one way or another and if for some reason the tournaments are a big problem, kick them all out and return to the Host in 2012 with a suddenly available Lampeter.

So it's Flames of Warhammericon 2010? I just hope GW pulls out all the stops and brings the loudspeakers and wooden Rhino with screaming live action guardsmen. ;)

"So it's Flames of Warhammericon 2010?"

Great name; print the T-shirts!

When the local press shows up to cover Historicon 2010, it will be interesting to see what they pick up on. Will it be the battles of Wagram, Gettysburg or Alesia, or a battle between armies of orcs?

It will most likely be "Look at all the nerds playing with toy soldiers!!!"

Have you walked into a game store lately and asked for historical miniatures? The chances are they scoffed at you.

And this is different from the last 20 years? The few good stores that have always carried significant numbers of historicals still do. The rest of them, thanks to FoW, probably now carry more than they ever did before.

Oh, and by the way, I also heard that another HMGS East Boardmember resigned…talk about a revolving door…the BOD is starting to resemble Italian governments in the 70's and 80's,which seemed to change every couple of months.

db

So back to the question for this thread. based on some comments, GW will not have 100 dealer tables? The tables are for their tournaments.
I had to go so I could not finsih my comment but I see that no firm response showed up yet.

A simple straight answer of yes dealer or not any dealer tables?

If they did get dealer tables how many? Were there enough tables added to allow everyone on the dealer pending or waiting list to get their tables ? Especially anyone who would have been ahead of GW on the list.

If GW is there do they expect exclusive selling rights which have not been given at Historicon in the past?

Rudy, I posted earlier in this thread that it was game tables and not dealer tables. Bob Giglio also came on and confirmed that GW would not have any dealer tables as they were aware that many other dealers sold their goods at Hcon…

Amen to:
Tilting at Windmills
Rudy Nelson
crhkrebs (x2)
John The OFM
pancerni2

I have voted with my feet and money. I haven't given HMGS-East any money in almost two years. I'm no longer a member. Therefore I can't vote. That does prevent me from making a "change". I think there are and will be a whole lot more people that make a similar decision.

What's happened to James (Vojvoda)? Where are you? What's happend? Send me an email if you want!

What's this about hotel space and other shoes?

Who's the member that resigned? I think the parallel should be drawn to Chicago politics. lol

Last but not least… How much is GW paying for the space they are using? I tried to bring it back on topic… :)

We all ready allow other for profit and not for profit organizations space to run tournaments at no charge. They collect money for the tournaments with no accountability to HMGS.

So this means that HMGS subsidizes the table space needed for these tournaments? And the folks running the tournaments collect entry fees and the like and do not give any of it to HMGS?

GW will be running 3 tournaments at HISTORICON 2010, all of which will take up a total of 100 tables (5x6 tables), which will not take away from any space normally used for historical games (i.e., no historical games will be harmed or turned away due to the GW tourneys!) The tournaments and the percentage of the 100 tables they will use will be WH40K (about 50%), WFB (about 40%) and LoTR (about 10%).

And this means 100% of the GW tables will be used for sci fi and fantasy tournaments?

So does this mean that HMGS will be paying for the tables used for sci fi and fantasy tournaments while they collect the money from these tournaments?

Can someone who is connected with HMGS tell me I'm missing something and this isn't what's really happening.

Yes, how much is GW paying for the space they are using?

What's happened to James (Vojvoda)? Where are you? What's happend? Send me an email if you want!

Disappeared from the face of earth according to Andy.

Yes, how much is GW paying for the space they are using?

I assume you have to pay the entrance fee to get in to play in the tournament and with the GW players, I'm also assuming there will not be many HMGS members so they'll pay the non-member weekend weekend rate? If that's the case and they get 200 people, that seems like $6,000 USD for HMGS-E.

What do they charge the other tournaments?

What is Battlefront paying for all the space they are taking up? Oh, they are "historical", though if you read what everyone says on the other threads they are not.

And how does 100 tables equate to only 200 people? Okay, I see the 2 people playing per table, but they just don't show up for the one event, do they? Not that I am complaining about 200 people, but is that all they get to show up to a GW Games Day? Really? Wow. How do they stay in business?

Never mind. Carry on.

I KNEW IT!!!! They wanted to grow the GW involvement way above the Timonium-fiasco level.

Another writer stated it very clearly above. "Selling Historicon down the river".

Thanks BOD. I hope you have enjoyed your terms.

I would type what I really think, but I get dawghoused enough.

Thanks for the reminder SMPress.

1> No GW in dealer room
2> No chance of historical themed games being turned away

I don't see the problem here. (It would be completely different if historical games were pushed aside.) To me it looks like they are just trying to fulfill the charter of ‘growing the hobby.' But then I started with GW games and added historicals in latter, so my view is biased.

Really though, take a look the Baltimore Convention Center, that place is huge. bccenter.org Seems there should be plenty enough room.

In the end, if a large percentage of historical players are so fickle that they will not attend a historical hobby event because GW is there, then I guess historical miniatures as a hobby should die.

No one has answered the question on what GW is paying for the space. I am assuming we are paying by the sq footage and the BCC does not require the entire building to be rented. So did we rent too much space and needed someone to fill it up?

@Flicking

Not that I am complaining about 200 people, but is that all they get to show up to a GW Games Day? Really? Wow. How do they stay in business?

It's not a Games Day, it's a competitive tournament. 200 people impresses me. Back when I was interested in WFB, the local Games Day was a one day affair that attracted 3,000+ people. But things are different now.

@Ed the 2Hour guy

So this means that HMGS subsidizes the table space needed for these tournaments? And the folks running the tournaments collect entry fees and the like and do not give any of it to HMGS?

I've played in the WAB tournaments at the HMGS Cons for almost a decade. I pay my HMGS-East dues, and I pay my entrance fee for the Convention. That is where my financial obligation to HMGS-East ends.

I then pay a $5.00 USD tournament fee to the North East Wargaming Society, who have done all the work arranging for the tournament (Thanks Don and Vince, welcome John). The $5 USD pays for purchase and upkeep of terrain items, game mats, and storage bins for our tournament. Sometimes it goes towards extra funding for gifts and door prizes.

I'm not privy to how the rest of the tournaments work, but I assume it is something similar.

Ed, you are not suggesting that some of that $5 USD be kicked back to the HMGS-East, are you?

@Thomas

I don't see the problem here. (It would be completely different if historical games were pushed aside.)

For a succinct idea of what the "problem" is please read John the OFM's 22 Oct 2009 9:27 a.m. entry.

Ralph

I don't see the problem here. (It would be completely different if historical games were pushed aside.) To me it looks like they are just trying to fulfill the charter of ‘growing the hobby.' But then I started with GW games and added historicals in latter, so my view is biased.

My problem here is what I was told and what is happening are two different things. I asked Pete Panzari about GW\Fantasy\SciFi back at Historicon 2009. He told me that he wanted to weed the Fantasy and SciFi element out of Historicon – yet we see GW holding a tournament at Historicon 2010!

We were told that we needed to move for space – yet there seemed to be plenty of room at HCon 09. Was it that there was not enough room for the GW tournaments? Will the GW tournament attendees have to pay the same amount as the HMGS E members?

Every time we ask a question, we get a different answer. This isn't any way to build good will among the members.

To Bob G. and anyone else on the BoD who wants to answer – What is the direction that HCon wants to take? If you want this to become another GenCon, Origins, etc., then please be upfront and honest.

Ed, you are not suggesting that some of that $5 USD USD be kicked back to the HMGS-East, are you?

WAB is Warhammer Ancients Battles just to be sure.
Historical then. The tables and space that the tournament occupies is paid for by HMGS. I totally understand a historical group providing free space for historical tournaments. For historical tournaments.

The GW games mentioned are not historical.

I think that nearly everyone wants a larger convention, the problem is making it larger while at the same time keeping costs down, and keeping it a "mostly" historical miniatures convention.

Once a decision is made such that the size of the convention is the most important thing, and a goal unto itself, the other two things will occur almost naturally.

And I do foresee a change of the "culture" of HMGS-E (and a decreasing membership) if these important decisions keep being made inside of a bubble.

We are starting to sound like some geographically challenged residents of distant lands, who are still upset that someone from the other tribe offed someone in their village in 1620.

That's a foul slur on the good people of northern Cambridgeshire, not many of them have more than 5 digits per hand.

I believe that the feel of Historicon will certainly change (better or worse – hard to say).

It looks as if Cold Wars is stepping in to fill the gap, however. Which only makes sense, since it is the older sibling.

Chuck

"I think that nearly everyone wants a larger convention, the problem is making it larger while at the same time keeping costs down, and keeping it a "mostly" historical miniatures convention."

I have to disagree with this. The move was based on the idea that the convention was "outgrowing" the current location. If you move the thing because you supposedly have so many people coming that you need more space and because so many people are going to flock to the new location from everywhere then why are you immediately expanding the subject matter to attract more people.

I am all for expanding the hobby but the conventions are big enough. If they grow organically to be larger than fine, if they don't fine. I don't think Hcon with 6,000 people is a materially more enjoyable event that Hcon with 4,000. In fact a strong argument could be made that at some point you lose something and become something else.

Ironically, I have no issue with fantasy and SF games at the conventions. But the hypocrisy surroundingt his move is enough to choke on.

CD,

Sure, there is definitely a "tipping point" where the sheer size of an event can make it unmanagable, impersonal, and less "fun" to attend. I think that if somehow there were twice as many attendees (say, roughly 7000) as in past Historicons, and with more games and vendors to go along with that increase, that would be seen as a plus by most people. Exponential growth to the 10s of thousands, however, would be a whole 'nother story I'm afraid!

I don't have a problem with SF or Fantasy either, but one has to assume that HMGS-E, which touts itself as having an "educational mission" (as required by their non-profit status), has to take into consideration the level of non-historical gaming that takes place.